Two or Three Realities?

[UFO]

Apparently there are any number of other realities in the Star Trek multiverse (if that's the right word) but a post by KingDaniel about the writer's intentions (as opposed to what we saw in STXI, which seemed ambiguous) got me thinking.

Nero went back in time from 2387 (8 years after Star Trek Nemesis) to 2233. Despite updated visuals this 2233 is supposed to be, up until the "lightning storm" that diverted the Kelvin, the same timeline as TOS/TNG and the rest. By altering events Nero created an alternate timeline. It's that alternate timeline that Spock Prime emerged into in 2258.

I think KingDaniel is correct. That is what was supposed to happen, however ...

When Nero went back in time (to year 2233) his arrival split off a new reality, which the movie proceeds to follow. But when Spock is sent back to year 2258, his arrival, to be consistent, would split off another new reality, also from the original prime universe. In other words, from the universe without Nero, not the one Nero's arrival created and in which he now lives.

As far as I can see, what we would end up with is (1) the prime universe, (2) the Nero universe and (3) the Spock universe. The last two, splitting off from the same prime universe, but 25 years apart.

It seems to me that red matter black holes would either send objects backward in time to the same reality, or to a different one selected presumably at random (splitting off a new universe in either case). But how (apart from the requirements of the plot) could they transport Spock to Nero's reality? To a specific but different universe from the one, said object, started in? I just don't see how it's possible for Spock (and red matter) to end up in Nero's new universe except by a nearly impossible fluke given the practically infinite number or universes that must exist.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

The Red Matter isn't what sends them back, the Black Holes do.

Spock Prime and Nero are from the same Prime Reality 2387.

The first split, would be the Narada arriving in 2233.

Then Spock arrives in 2258 of the Alternate Reality, and this is split again.

 

[UFO]

The Red Matter isn't what sends them back, the Black Holes do.

Yes, precisely so. I just used the term "Red Matter Black Holes" to distinguish them from the garden variety ones. The tidal forces of "ordinary" black holes would be more likely to (and I'm guessing here as I am no expert) rip matter apart down to its subatomic particles before it was able to pass through (I doubt Nero would feel up to making the universe safe for Romulan kind anyway). A sufficiently massive black hole (galaxy size?) with a shallow gravity gradient might work though.

In any event, I'm happy to accept that being created by red matter somehow imparts these black holes with much more "friendly personalities". Then, as you say, the black hole handles the actual time travel.

Spock Prime and Nero are from the same Prime Reality 2387.

Agreed.

The first split, would be the Narada arriving in 2233.
Then Spock arrives in 2258 of the Alternate Reality, and this is split again.

Yes, that seems to be what the writers wanted to suggest all right. And I thought that as well originally. But the question is why, and indeed how, would Spock
Prime be sent to Nero's universe? All the black hole is doing is sending ships back in time right? It can't "know" that the writers want Spock Prime to end up in Nero's universe.

If Nero got sent back to an earlier period in the Prime Universe, then so should Spock Prime be. The 25 year gap was clearly a plot device, but it wouldn't matter if the difference was only a few seconds. If the black hole is just a stand in for a time machine, it can't transport SP to a different universe. When SP comes through (to the past of the Prime Reality), Nero's new universe is now just one of an effectively infinite number that the black hole "knows" nothing about and has no way of reaching.

I'm guessing that despite the writer's use of modern physics to sort out time travel (which I don't have a problem with) they were still thinking in fairly traditional terms.

Easy to do!

Can you see what I'm getting at?

 

[Captrek]

If you want to imagine a reality in which Nero arrives in 2233 and Spock does not arrive 25 years later, then it exists. It should be noted that nothing that occurs in that reality will ever be reported unless it’s in fanfic, possibly by you or somebody reading this thread.

 

[Hythlodeus]

If you want to imagine a reality in which Nero arrives in 2233 and Spock does not arrive 25 years later, then it exists. It should be noted that nothing that occurs in that reality will ever be reported unless it’s in fanfic, possibly by you or somebody reading this thread.

exactly, because you cannot destroy an idea. in your mind, you created it and it's reeeeaaaaal!

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think it's all a matter of point-of-view. We saw the reality where Nero went back and changed things, and then Spock appeared 25 years later. By default in 2258 there should be one universe where he did appear, and one where he didn't. We just didn't see the other. It's possible there are billions of universes splitting off where he arrived at different times and locations.

In "Parallels" there was a universe where the Borg assimiated Earth when the events of "Best of Both Worlds" unfolded differently. Something happened, some decision was made splitting the universes off during that episode but we didn't see it.

Not quite the same, but the entire TNG universe is seemingly the result of Picard sending the Enterprise-C back to Neredra III, we just didn't know it until "Yesterday's Enterprise". We saw what the universe would have been like if he didn't.

In "Yesteryear" we saw the alternate universe where Spock didn't go back and help his younger self survive his desert ordeal.

"Quantum duplication" sounds really far-fetched to me, but it makes for some really interesting Star Treks (and Stargates)!

 

[Gojira]

I personally don't mind the "alternate universe" theory, but I really have a difficult time reconciling that to the action and dialog that I see on screen. From my understanding the movie plays as if the prime timeline gets altered with Nero's arrival and actions in 2233 and Spock Prime arrives in this new time line 25 years later. Yes, Spock's actions alter the timeline further but I don't see it creating another universe.

I don't see/hear any reference within the movie that an alternate universe is created. An alternate timeline yes, I do see that. But even then there isn't a reference that indicates that the "unaltered timeline" still exists somewhere.

Also, in my opoinion, Nero and Prime Spock, and all of the characters on the Enterprise are all treating one another and regarding one another as if everyone is from their same universe not some parallel universe. Kirk certainly treats Prime Spock as if he is an older version of the same Spock that just threw him off the Enterprise. He doesn't seem to regard older Spock as coming from a different Universe. Kirk does treat Spock as if he comes from the same universe except that the events are now unfolding differently than they once had.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's explained in the movie. Kirk suggests they do something crazy to throw off Nero's "future knowledge" and Spock says any future knowledge Nero has is moot becsuse events have already been on a new path since 2233. Uhura says "...an alternate reality?" It's alternate because it's not the past that begat Nero and Spock Prime (whose version of Kirk knew his father). I really don't think there's any difference between "alternate reality", "alternate universe" and "alternate timeline". I think it's slightly different terms for the same thing.

Were TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY "erased"? That's where the writer's stuff about alternate universes comes in. According to multiverse theory, no timeline can be destroyed, thus TOS exists elsewhen. According to the majority (but not all) of prior Star Treks, what happened wiped out TOS and beyond. The movie leaves it up to the viewer to decide. The Countdown comic (yeah, non-canon) was specifically ended with the TNG crew still there after Spock fell into the black hole.

 

[Gojira]

It's explained in the movie. Kirk suggests they do something crazy to throw off Nero's "future knowledge" and Spock says any future knowledge Nero has is moot becsuse events have already been on a new path since 2233. Uhura says "...an alternate reality?" It's alternate because it's not the past that begat Nero and Spock Prime (whose version of Kirk knew his father). I really don't think there's any difference between "alternate reality", "alternate universe" and "alternate timeline". I think it's slightly different terms for the same thing.

I agree with your assessment of the situation, I disagree with you conclusions. I do see those terms differently. Changing the timeline certainly does alter ones reality within their specific universe, I just don't see how it creates a separate universe.

Were TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY "erased"? That's where the writer's stuff about alternate universes comes in. According to multiverse theory, no timeline can be destroyed, thus TOS exists elsewhen. According to the majority (but not all) of prior Star Treks, what happened wiped out TOS and beyond. The movie leaves it up to the viewer to decide. The Countdown comic (yeah, non-canon) was specifically ended with the TNG crew still there after Spock fell into the black hole.

This is the way I see it. I see the entire Star trek franchise is one huge continual epic story. All the events did happen in TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY (at least from the viewers perspective) but right now we're at a point in our story where time travel has brought us back to an earlier time period in our story and events are unfolding differently from how they originally had.

My biggest problem with the multiverse theory is that there are many moments of dialog in the movie where Nero and Spock are treated as if they are from the future of their own universe and not some parallel universe.

The paraphrased quote you quoted me tells me that: Spock says any future knowledge Nero has is moot because events have already been on a new path since 2233.

A more accurate dialog and one where I could buy into the multiverse theory would be...

any future knowledge Nero has is moot because his arrival has created an alternate universe so technically he isn't even from our universe.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Since Spock's the one who figured it out and Kirk had been led on by Old Spock to believe the universe might unravel in paradox should he tell what he knows, I think it's safe to say that most people in the 23rd century don't know for sure how time travel works (much like us poor viewers ). The only prior time travel incidents (in-universe) would have been Archer and co, and I doubt those tales of a ruined 31st century Earth, hookers in the 21st century, alternate WWII's and agents acting out a future war in the past would be common knowledge, nor did they make enough sense to draw any conclusions from.

Star Trek's time travels have been all over the place in the past 40 years. Contradictions are a way of life for these people

I should point out the "multiverse" thing is probably a lot more to do with keeping options open, not angering old-Trek fans and selling more books and games based on older Treks than anything else.

Fringe, by the same writers, has lots of alternate universe stuff, though.

 

[Gojira]

Since Spock's the one who figured it out and Kirk had been led on by Old Spock to believe the universe might unravel in paradox should he tell what he knows, I think it's safe to say that most people in the 23rd century don't know for sure how time travel works (much like us poor viewers ). The only prior time travel incidents (in-universe) would have been Archer and co, and I doubt those tales of a ruined 31st century Earth, hookers in the 21st century, alternate WWII's and agents acting out a future war in the past would be common knowledge, nor did they make enough sense to draw any conclusions from.

Star Trek's time travels have been all over the place in the past 40 years. Contradictions are a way of life for these people

I should point out the "multiverse" thing is probably a lot more to do with keeping options open, not angering old-Trek fans and selling more books and games based on older Treks than anything else.

Fringe, by the same writers, has lots of alternate universe stuff, though.

I think one of the ways in which the multiverse theory does work for me is if Spock does know more than he is telling and if Kirk and crew really don't know the full depths of what has happened.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

When Nero went back in time (to year 2233) his arrival split off a new reality

How do you know anything was "split off"? If an infinite number of realities already exist, then nothing is ever being created. Everything possible already exists. Characters are visiting this or that already-existing reality.

My take on it is: we saw two out of an infinite number of realities in Trek XI: the one we know & love, and the one JJ Abrams created so that he can play in the Star Trek universe without the foregone-conclusion problem crushing all the fun out of things. We don't need more realities than those.

I really don't think there's any difference between "alternate reality", "alternate universe" and "alternate timeline".

Under the infinite-realities theory, there isn't any difference. Every timeline is its own reality. When you change timelines, what you're really doing is jumping realities.

"Repairing the timeline" by going to the past is simply delusion. You journey from your own timeline to one that looks wrong to you (no big surprise, you're in a different universe). You do something to "repair" it and that propels you back into your own original reality. You didn't do anything, but you think you did. I like to think that all Trek's "repair the timeline" stories operated under these rules.

My biggest problem with the multiverse theory is that there are many moments of dialog in the movie where Nero and Spock are treated as if they are from the future of their own universe and not some parallel universe.

Well yeah, why does Nero want to blow up Vulcan when the Spock he blames for Romulus going kaboom never set foot on that Vulcan, and his own home is safe & sound back where they came from? That boy just isn't thinking.

But nobody in the movie could possibly know whether they have jumped timelines within a single universe, or jumped universes. So we are forced to rely on what the writers think happened, and they say the characters jumped universes. The conversation on the bridge that made it sound like the characters knew Spock jumped universes was the writers putting knowledge into the characters' heads that they couldn't possibly know.

Okay by me. Avoids all that grandfather paradox nonsense, even if it does imply that all the time travel Starfleet has been doing till now is nothing more than tourism. (Or else the rules of time travel change from time to time for no comprehensible reason.)

The only prior time travel incidents (in-universe) would have been Archer and co, and I doubt those tales of a ruined 31st century Earth, hookers in the 21st century, alternate WWII's and agents acting out a future war in the past would be common knowledge, nor did they make enough sense to draw any conclusions from.

If that's their knowledge of time travel, they've probably concluded that time travel is inherently absurd and not worth bothering to study.

 

[Captrek]

If you want to imagine a reality in which Nero arrives in 2233 and Spock does not arrive 25 years later, then it exists. It should be noted that nothing that occurs in that reality will ever be reported unless it’s in fanfic, possibly by you or somebody reading this thread.

exactly, because you cannot destroy an idea. in your mind, you created it and it's reeeeaaaaal!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lHgbbM9pu4

I just love these “Nuh-uh!”/“Uh-huh!”/“Nuh-uh!”/“Uh-huh!”/“Nuh-uh!”/“Uh-huh!”/“Nuh-uh!”/“Uh-huh!”/“Nuh-uh!”/“Uh-huh!” debates.

 

[UFO]

When Nero went back in time (to year 2233) his arrival split off a new reality

How do you know anything was "split off"? If an infinite number of realities already exist, then nothing is ever being created. Everything possible already exists. Characters are visiting this or that already-existing reality.

That is a valid point. There appear to be a number of variations on the multiverse concept. As you say, one seems to suggest universes are independent and "pre-existing". In fact more of that sort could be being created all the time.

Another version has it that whenever its possible for two or more events to occur, a new universe is created where each possibility actually happens. By the way, this would result in an unbelievably large number of universes being created every microsecond! My assumption, and perhaps that of a few others here, is that the second type is what the writers had in mind. I would be interested if anyone can provide confirmation of their intentions either way, actually.

Assuming the second scenario, I was suggesting that it would be effectively impossible for Spock to end up in the same new universe as Nero because each of their respective arrivals would create a universe that branched off from the original prime universe. No one else seems to have pointed that out so I thought I would give it a try. I'm not sure I have succeeded though.

If instead we assume pre-existing universes, things are a little different. I mean, now the black hole is operating as both a time machine and an inter-universe conduit. That seems a little tricky. Of course it could be just doing the latter, as the target universe might be lagging a bit behind our one, development wise (I guess that's your viewpoint. Simulated time travel only?). The next problem is: If it does that at random, the chances of Spock Prime ending up in "Nero's" universe (the one Nero was sent to) are still pretty much zero. Same deal if the way or time (pick another parameter) you enter the black hole effects which reality you are sent to.

We would have to postulate that when black holes (well, red matter black holes anyway) are created, they would somehow "lock on to" a target universe and continue to do so, at least for some time. The temporal component (Spock's 25 year delay) is harder to explain now I think. Never the less, they would act like a point to point wormhole I guess, just between universes.

If you want to imagine a reality in which Nero arrives in 2233 and Spock does not arrive 25 years later, then it exists.

Thanks, but I really don't want to. It just seems to me that's what would have happened if the writer's were using the "create universes on the fly" multiverse model (which I'm assuming they were).

Clearly past ST time travel didn't work by any multiverse method. McCoy's alterations to 1930's history should not have effected the prime universe, but they did. That's why Kirk and Spock had to go back, not just to retrieve him.

Then again "simulated" (universe hopping) time travel and the "real thing" could co-exist. Of course the "on the fly" model will give you a new reality whether you want one or not!

 

[Gojira]

My biggest problem with the multiverse theory is that there are many moments of dialog in the movie where Nero and Spock are treated as if they are from the future of their own universe and not some parallel universe.

Well yeah, why does Nero want to blow up Vulcan when the Spock he blames for Romulus going kaboom never set foot on that Vulcan, and his own home is safe & sound back where they came from? That boy just isn't thinking.

But nobody in the movie could possibly know whether they have jumped timelines within a single universe, or jumped universes. So we are forced to rely on what the writers think happened, and they say the characters jumped universes. The conversation on the bridge that made it sound like the characters knew Spock jumped universes was the writers putting knowledge into the characters' heads that they couldn't possibly know.

The highlighted part has pretty much has been my line of thinking. In order for me to accept the writers intent I have to disregard much of the dialog and action as seen in the movie.

So I find it very difficult to just think that all the characters (except maybe Spock Prime) are ignorant of the fact that this is another universe and not the "original" one we have known for 40+ years.

In the end, to have to go outside of the movie and have the writers explain their intent means they didn't do a good job explaining their intent in the movie to begin with.

Clearly past ST time travel didn't work by any multiverse method. McCoy's alterations to 1930's history should not have effected the prime universe, but they did. That's why Kirk and Spock had to go back, not just to retrieve him.

That is exactly it!! This movie acts/plays very much like a typical standard trek time travel story except that things were not "fixed" at the end.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If instead we assume pre-existing universes, things are a little different. I mean, now the black hole is operating as both a time machine and an inter-universe conduit.

That's my view on it.

the chances of Spock Prime ending up in "Nero's" universe (the one Nero was sent to) are still pretty much zero.

I don't think so. Remember, Spock and Nero originally entered the *same* black hole. It just spit them out at different points in the past. So it makes sense that they ended up in the same universe, because they both entered the same black hole.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Just a thought: The TOS/TNG/etc universe is the result of a great deal of "unrepaired" time tampering. Both the destruction of the colony in "Shockwave" and the Xindi attack on Earth (and subsequent retalliation mission) "weren't supposed to happen".

And I'll mention again that Spock explained it all to the bridge crew, and Uhura at least got it.

I really can't see an insane Romulan miner being well-versed on temporal mechanics and multiverse theory. I'm not sure if he cared if he killed Vulcan Prime or a quantum duplicate. It was about making Spock(s) hurt as much as he did - and even if Spock Prime knew "his" Vulcan and "his" mother were safe and sound in Prime 2258, he'd have to be pretty callous not to react to the death of a world.

And even if there is only one timeline, and TOS and everything after was erased, what does it matter? It's a tv show. JJ Abrams will not sneak into your houses at night and steal your DVD's. Although it would be really funny

 

[Gojira]

Just a thought: The TOS/TNG/etc universe is the result of a great deal of "unrepaired" time tampering. Both the destruction of the colony in "Shockwave" and the Xindi attack on Earth (and subsequent retalliation mission) "weren't supposed to happen".

And I'll mention again that Spock explained it all to the bridge crew, and Uhura at least got it.

Even Spock's explanation of an "Alternate Reality" is vague and ambiguous. That's why we're debating this thing to death. To some people the term is synonymous with the term parallel universe but not to everyone.

If Uhura had replied "parallel universe" instead this debate would be over.

I really can't see an insane Romulan miner being well-versed on temporal mechanics and multiverse theory. I'm not sure if he cared if he killed Vulcan Prime or a quantum duplicate. It was about making Spock(s) hurt as much as he did - and even if Spock Prime knew "his" Vulcan and "his" mother were safe and sound in Prime 2258, he'd have to be pretty callous not to react to the death of a world.

I can agree with that!

And even if there is only one timeline, and TOS and everything after was erased, what does it matter? It's a tv show. JJ Abrams will not sneak into your houses at night and steal your DVD's. Although it would be really funny

Even if the time line has been erased it doesn't mean I cannot go "back in time" and enjoy watching those events on my DVD.

As I said before, to me all of Star Trek is a long epic tale and right now in our epic journey we have gone back in time and future events will now unfold differently than they once did. But I can return to any part of our epic tale and enjoy it.

 

[Set Harth]

That is exactly it!! This movie acts/plays very much like a typical standard trek time travel story except that things were not "fixed" at the end.

However, Spock didn't intentionally chase Nero into the black hole; neither of them intended to go back in time. And as you point out, the ending is not the ending of a "typical standard trek time travel story". It's the typical ending of a "we have to save Earth from destruction" story, and a story of that type ( generally speaking ) doesn't necessarily have anything to do with time travel at all. While destiny is alluded to - in terms of getting Kirk to a place where Spock believes he should be, and thus "fixing" the timeline in a certain sense - it's really an issue of damage control. At no point do the characters assume that Vulcan can be resurrected.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Assuming the second scenario, I was suggesting that it would be effectively impossible for Spock to end up in the same new universe as Nero because each of their respective arrivals would create a universe that branched off from the original prime universe. No one else seems to have pointed that out so I thought I would give it a try. I'm not sure I have succeeded though.

I wouldn't hold your breath on anyone answering this either. Back around when the movie came out, I started a thread on that very issue, and there wasn't really an answer.

I do like the idea that the same anomaly brought them both to the same universe, but that leaves you wondering why there was some duplicate universe out there or why a black hole would specifically led to that one and not another. Some would even say that the universe they went to wasn't a duplicate because ships look different and stardates aren't right, but I think the implication is that everything was supposed to be the same and that there was a point of divergence when Nero came through.