Two guys arguing over Trek 11, and beer.

[F. King Daniel]

So your argument there is hogwash, IMO

An opinion based on your own "assumptions" (), that ignores dialogue from the film and "Tapestry"

I found it an interesting and plausable plot of how a Klingon could be in Starfleet and never questioned it

Just as I find it an interesting and plausible plot that Romulan miners would act in a manner different to Romulan politicians and soldiers.

after close to twenty years you are trying to use that as an excuse?...

I'm not excusing anything, because nothing needs excusing. I'm citing an example of Trek writers taking a known species in a new direction.

Again you come up with this effed up rationality for some of us who don't like the movie....

Since you didn't understand me the last time: I couldn't care less what you think of the film. I am pointing out that this movie had just as much right to make changes to the Star Trek universe as it's predecessors did.

 

[Captain Mike]

Hal didn't like the direction the film took the Romulans, but he tried to dress up his opinion, and his own notions about Trek's universe, as fact.

Maybe less a notion, as a product of observation over time (fictional centuries) of a pattern of past behavior.

So becuase MILITARY Romulans (and only the ones we've seen at that) act a certain way all Romulans even CIVILIAN ones have to act in that same manner?

But why would a military Romulan, a cilivian Romulan and a government Romulan (we've seen all three) possess different cultural norms? Cultural norms are ingrained into the societal whole, it likely that Romulan don't even recognize that they are as a group duplicitous, it's who they are. Captain Mike is simply pointing out a in common characteristic that Romulans have constantly displayed.

Quick, what are the "cultural norms" for modern day Americans? Why would an interstellar empire have homogenous norms anymore than a single nation or even state on 21st century Terra?

People from anywhere do not behave in a homogenous manner.

We are not talking about "normal" day Americans...
When you have several degrees in something we haven't seen or dealt with in Star Trek, I'll get back to you on the rest......

 

[Captain Mike]

So your argument there is hogwash, IMO

An opinion based on your own "assumptions" (), that ignores dialogue from the film and "Tapestry"

Yes it is hogwash. Shinzon and Picard were raised in two different environments. They are two different kinds of person....

Just as I find it an interesting and plausible plot that Romulan miners would act in a manner different to Romulan politicians and soldiers.

As far as I know from the "Prime Universe", the Remans were responsible for mining.

I'm not excusing anything, because nothing needs excusing. I'm citing an example of Trek writers taking a known species in a new direction.

What new direction?...The Vulcans were always written as an arrogant species. As I stated about Spock in TOS!!!!

Again you come up with this effed up rationality for some of us who don't like the movie....

Since you didn't understand me the last time: I couldn't care less what you think of the film. I am pointing out that this movie had just as much right to make changes to the Star Trek universe as it's predecessors did.[/QUOTE]


And those changes were?...I need to hear what exactly were the changes you speak of.

 

[F. King Daniel]

As far as I know from the "Prime Universe", the Remans were responsible for the mining

There were mines on Remus, but to say that's where all the mining occurs in the Romulan Empire would be an innacurate assumption, since we met a ship full of Romulan miners from the year 2387.

What new direction?

I was talking about the Romulans. I cited the Vulcans as an example of fans holding up unsubstantiated preconcieved notions about a Trek species as fact, as the OP's friend did about the Romulans.

And those changes were?

Re-read the thread.

 

[Captain Mike]

What new direction?

I was talking about the Romulans. I cited the Vulcans as an example of fans holding up unsubstantiated preconcieved notions about a Trek species as fact, as the OP's friend did about the Romulans.

So in one movie instead of having them be their characteristically deceptive nature,...HELL make them be revenge seeking pirates....
Where else has the entire culture of species in Star Trek been rewritten due to the writer's "whim"....

 

[Captain Mike]

I was talking about the Romulans. I cited the Vulcans as an example of fans holding up unsubstantiated preconcieved notions about a Trek species as fact, as the OP's friend did about the Romulans.

I also disagree with that statement of you citing the Vulcans (as you chose to edit my reply) because of the previous responses I posted.

 

[number6]

What new direction?

I was talking about the Romulans. I cited the Vulcans as an example of fans holding up unsubstantiated preconcieved notions about a Trek species as fact, as the OP's friend did about the Romulans.

So in one movie instead of having them be their characteristically deceptive nature,...HELL make them be revenge seeking pirates....
Where else has the entire culture of species in Star Trek been rewritten due to the writer's "whim"....

Klingons were originally written as devious, but intelligent, to reflect the cold war conflict with communist russia. They were later rewritten as Vikings in TNG.

The Ferengi were originally a lot more evil and conniving. They were later rewritten as comic relief.

 

[number6]

I was talking about the Romulans. I cited the Vulcans as an example of fans holding up unsubstantiated preconcieved notions about a Trek species as fact, as the OP's friend did about the Romulans.

I also disagree with that statement of you citing the Vulcans (as you chose to edit my reply) because of the previous responses I posted.

Well, of course you do.

 

[Devon]

The Ferengi were originally a lot more evil and conniving. They were later rewritten as comic relief.

If I recall correctly, the Ferengi were originally meant to be the main foes for TNG, or at least like their version of the Klingons.

 

[number6]

The Ferengi were originally a lot more evil and conniving. They were later rewritten as comic relief.

If I recall correctly, the Ferengi were originally meant to be the main foes for TNG, or at least like their version of the Klingons.

Yep. They were supposed to be a serious threat, not bumbling idiots with a simple lust for greed.

 

[Captain Mike]

I was talking about the Romulans. I cited the Vulcans as an example of fans holding up unsubstantiated preconcieved notions about a Trek species as fact, as the OP's friend did about the Romulans.

So in one movie instead of having them be their characteristically deceptive nature,...HELL make them be revenge seeking pirates....
Where else has the entire culture of species in Star Trek been rewritten due to the writer's "whim"....

Klingons were originally written as devious, but intelligent, to reflect the cold war conflict with communist russia. They were later rewritten as Vikings in TNG.

The Ferengi were originally a lot more evil and conniving. They were later rewritten as comic relief.

You are wrong with the Klingons, but will give you a credit for the Ferengi. Since DS9 did , sort of make them "comedic" although there were some very serious episodes about them.

I was talking about the Romulans. I cited the Vulcans as an example of fans holding up unsubstantiated preconcieved notions about a Trek species as fact, as the OP's friend did about the Romulans.

I also disagree with that statement of you citing the Vulcans (as you chose to edit my reply) because of the previous responses I posted.

Well, of course you do.

Well why wouldn't I? Are you saying the Vulcans weren't arrogant in TOS?!?!?

The Ferengi were originally a lot more evil and conniving. They were later rewritten as comic relief.

If I recall correctly, the Ferengi were originally meant to be the main foes for TNG, or at least like their version of the Klingons.

Yep. They were supposed to be a serious threat, not bumbling idiots with a simple lust for greed.

See my reply to 6...

 

[F. King Daniel]

You are wrong with the Klingons

I take it you've never seen TOS? Or perhaps it's a change you blindly accepted since you grew up with it, and weren't there when it happened?

 

[number6]

I'm certainly not wrong about the Klingons. The were very different in TOS, but then I actually watched that show. Cap'n Mike doesn't know what he's talking abut.

In fact, Roddenberry didn't even want Klingons in TNG at all. It was Justman who came up with Worf.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Lance,

Your friend Hal is part of the problem.

That is all.

 

[Nimthim]

Aside from the discussion of how various species were presented and behaved, doesn't the storytelling element of a member of a particular species acting in a way that contradicts preconceived, expected behavior provide for drama and conflict? If one can unequivocally predict what a character will do, the story becomes extremely bland and boring. Trek has employed the element of having characters behave against expected norms on many, many occasions.