Twilight- poor man's Buffy?

[Greg Cox]

I dunno which came first, True Blood (aka Sookie Stackhouse Novels) or Twilight but there was a similar plot point with the "I'm-so-unable-to-read-your-thoughts-it's-uncanny-and-attractive-as-well" aspect, but it's definitely better executed on True Blood.

The Sookie Stackhouse novels, by Charlaine Harris, predate "Twilight" by years.

 

[Lindley]

worship anything Whedon does

He'd made mistakes. Some pretty big ones. But by and large he's got a better track record than a lot of people. Bryan Fuller is similar. I guess I just don't see the problem with anticipating new things from such creative minds.

 

[Sci]

worship anything Whedon does

He'd made mistakes. Some pretty big ones. But by and large he's got a better track record than a lot of people. Bryan Fuller is similar. I guess I just don't see the problem with anticipating new things from such creative minds.

There isn't. He's just baiting Whedon fans into a fight.

 

[CorporalClegg]

No, because I was online well before Firefly ever existed and I saw the fans come about. They were pretty much exactly as described even before the show aired (say hello to the origins of the "worship anything Whedon does" commentary from myriad individuals) and it only got worse as it went on.

If you guys are going to ask why people (again, a plural word; it's not a singular person's opinion) have issues with Whedon's fans, it'd be nice if you weren't too hypocritical about being "persecuted" while doing exactly that to the people you asked the opinion of.

But your accusation still isn't fair. I would hardly call myself a Whedon fan--I think Angel is mediocre and Firefly is just down right not any good, but I think some of your comments about fans, Whedon and his shows are a bit snarky. And your comments of pre-Firefly sound more like typical fan anticipation. If someone was a fan of a guy's preveious work, why is he in the wrong if he is eger to see Guy's new work assuming it will live up to the previous standards?

If a picher wins two Cy Youngs, are his fans in the wrong if they anticipate a third? Then, if he is injured on a fluke play and unfairly traded away, are the fans wrong if they complain about it--espcially if, in ten games he was 8-2 with a 2.98 ERA and strukout 90? How about, if others start shouting from the gallery things like, "He got what he deserved." "He was a washed up hack!" Et cetera. I think the pitcher's fans would only become more upset and vocal.

It seems to me, that what you're doing is much the same. Your finger pointing and disrespect of the fans, Whedon, Buffy, and the other shows just comes across as uninitated sandbox whining.

 

[Dream]

Buffy is a story that advocates sexual equality and depicts a strong young woman who learns how to grow up and integrate her role as the Slayer into her larger self-construct and who along the way happens to have relationships with vampires which later end, in part because both vampires realize that they can't give her a future and that neither party should have to sacrifice unequally for them to be together.

The Buffy and Spike relationship was disgusting. I don't understand why people point out how great Buffy is as a role model because in season 6 she starts screwing Spike just because she felt depressed. Buffy totally ignores her friends and family when they could have helped it.

I hated what the writers did with Spike on Buffy and was really glad when he moved on to Angel. When Spike is away from Buffy suddenly he is cool again.

 

[Sci]

Buffy is a story that advocates sexual equality and depicts a strong young woman who learns how to grow up and integrate her role as the Slayer into her larger self-construct and who along the way happens to have relationships with vampires which later end, in part because both vampires realize that they can't give her a future and that neither party should have to sacrifice unequally for them to be together.

The Buffy and Spike relationship was disgusting.

The Buffy and Spike relationship pre-Spike's re-ensoulment was disgusting, but also an honest depiction of the way people sometimes have sick relationships. The Buffy and Spike relationship post-Spike's re-ensoulment was both egalitarian and not disgusting. It was also short-lived, in part because Spike and Buffy both knew that there was simply no way for a relationship between a Human and a Vampire to last, because one or the other would have to sacrifice disproportionately to even try.

It's important, however, to remember that not every aspect of their relationships, plural, can be equated to real-life relationships, since, of course, real people don't lose and grow souls.

I don't understand why people point out how great Buffy is as a role model because she starts screwing Spike just because she felt depressed.

I didn't say that, and it's a misreading of my statement to take it as such.

I hated what the writers did with Spike on Buffy and was really glad when he moved on to Angel. When Spike is away from Buffy suddenly he is cool again.

I think that was part of the point -- Spike and Buffy were both healthier when they weren't together.

 

[I am not Spock]

I'm a Whedon fan, and none of his shows to date have let me down, but the premise to Dollhouse does admittedly sound a bit cliche. The show will have a built in fanbase. But I'm still willing to give it a shot. I'm sure Whedon will do something cool with the premise. After all the premise of Buffy sounds a bit lame on paper, but the execution was much better than the premise.

 

[I am not Spock]

worship anything Whedon does

He'd made mistakes. Some pretty big ones. But by and large he's got a better track record than a lot of people. Bryan Fuller is similar. I guess I just don't see the problem with anticipating new things from such creative minds.

Indeed. i think Whedon's general track record for quality is still largely intact. Fuller's too. Even Bryan Fuller's Voyager scripts were actually quite good.

 

[3D Master]

Buffy is a story that advocates sexual equality and depicts a strong young woman who learns how to grow up and integrate her role as the Slayer into her larger self-construct and who along the way happens to have relationships with vampires which later end, in part because both vampires realize that they can't give her a future and that neither party should have to sacrifice unequally for them to be together.

The Buffy and Spike relationship was disgusting.

The Buffy and Spike relationship pre-Spike's re-ensoulment was disgusting, but also an honest depiction of the way people sometimes have sick relationships. The Buffy and Spike relationship post-Spike's re-ensoulment was both egalitarian and not disgusting. It was also short-lived, in part because Spike and Buffy both knew that there was simply no way for a relationship between a Human and a Vampire to last, because one or the other would have to sacrifice disproportionately to even try.

It's important, however, to remember that not every aspect of their relationships, plural, can be equated to real-life relationships, since, of course, real people don't lose and grow souls.

Uhuh, post ensoulment is egalitarian and not disgusting. Right, and I'm Santa Claus no doubt.

Buffy was all lovy-dovy with her attempted rapist, while said attempted rapist showed not an inch of a difference in acting and behavior (it would be bad enough if he was different, but not even that.) Spike is essentially the latest abusive, raping men that say "I'm sorry, I'll be better", gets taken back by the umpteenth gullible, lack of self-esteem women, and promptly goes back to what he was doing.

The fact that the attempted rape and the after math, is all about the attempted rapist and the victim (the frigging' title-character no less) is essentially treated as a doormat to prop up the attempted rapist is as disgusting as you can get.

Worse, Whedon's little talk about S7's Buffy/Spike theme was, get this, "To show that not all criminals (read attempted rapists and rapists) are irredeemably so they had to get back to a loving trusting relationships..."

It's bad enough the idiot doesn't even understand the relationship between the two, because a. it was never loving, and b. it wasn't even EVER trusting. Spike was a soulless, pure evil, vampire that even with a chip to keep him from directly hurting humans was constantly working to either get it out, or harm people indirectly. So there's no way to get "back" to such a relationship, they never had one.

But the truly worst thing, is that, neglecting the victim of a horrifying crime, he then has his titular, so-called feminist-role-model, do the VERY THING, that every social worker, victim help group, and general female empowering person tells them THEY SHOULD NEVER DO! The very thing that puts them back under this evil bastard's control. The very thing that makes the whole thing INEQUAL and then some.

And not a one "feminist" realizes it. Buffy is still heralded as the great feminist role model. I've read mothers statements that they let their girls watch Buffy as she's such a great role model.

Throwing up now.

Twenty years from now, when all the girls using Buffy as a role model grow up, we've turned back the clock 50 years, and all the social workers, and feminists can start from scratch in trying to get through to them you tell such bastards to stay the hell away; and preferably have him locked up in jail.

 

[Sci]

The Buffy and Spike relationship was disgusting.

The Buffy and Spike relationship pre-Spike's re-ensoulment was disgusting, but also an honest depiction of the way people sometimes have sick relationships. The Buffy and Spike relationship post-Spike's re-ensoulment was both egalitarian and not disgusting. It was also short-lived, in part because Spike and Buffy both knew that there was simply no way for a relationship between a Human and a Vampire to last, because one or the other would have to sacrifice disproportionately to even try.

It's important, however, to remember that not every aspect of their relationships, plural, can be equated to real-life relationships, since, of course, real people don't lose and grow souls.

Uhuh, post ensoulment is egalitarian and not disgusting. Right, and I'm Santa Claus no doubt.

Buffy was all lovy-dovy with her attempted rapist, while said attempted rapist showed not an inch of a difference in acting and behavior (it would be bad enough if he was different, but not even that.) Spike is essentially the latest abusive, raping men that say "I'm sorry, I'll be better", gets taken back by the umpteenth gullible, lack of self-esteem women, and promptly goes back to what he was doing.

The fact that the attempted rape and the after math, is all about the attempted rapist and the victim (the frigging' title-character no less) is essentially treated as a doormat to prop up the attempted rapist is as disgusting as you can get.

Worse, Whedon's little talk about S7's Buffy/Spike theme was, get this, "To show that not all criminals (read attempted rapists and rapists) are irredeemably so they had to get back to a loving trusting relationships..."

It's bad enough the idiot doesn't even understand the relationship between the two, because a. it was never loving, and b. it wasn't even EVER trusting. Spike was a soulless, pure evil, vampire that even with a chip to keep him from directly hurting humans was constantly working to either get it out, or harm people indirectly. So there's no way to get "back" to such a relationship, they never had one.

But the truly worst thing, is that, neglecting the victim of a horrifying crime, he then has his titular, so-called feminist-role-model, do the VERY THING, that every social worker, victim help group, and general female empowering person tells them THEY SHOULD NEVER DO! The very thing that puts them back under this evil bastard's control. The very thing that makes the whole thing INEQUAL and then some.

And not a one "feminist" realizes it. Buffy is still heralded as the great feminist role model. I've read mothers statements that they let their girls watch Buffy as she's such a great role model.

Throwing up now.

Twenty years from now, when all the girls using Buffy as a role model grow up, we've turned back the clock 50 years, and all the social workers, and feminists can start from scratch in trying to get through to them you tell such bastards to stay the hell away; and preferably have him locked up in jail.

Yes, 3D Master, we get it, you think that Spike was irredeemably evil and the magical element added into the equation doesn't mean anything to you and Attempted Rapist and blah blah blah blah blah.

Don't you ever get tired of writing the same post, time and again, day in and day out, for seven years now?

 

[MNM]

The Buffy and Spike relationship pre-Spike's re-ensoulment was disgusting, but also an honest depiction of the way people sometimes have sick relationships. The Buffy and Spike relationship post-Spike's re-ensoulment was both egalitarian and not disgusting. It was also short-lived, in part because Spike and Buffy both knew that there was simply no way for a relationship between a Human and a Vampire to last, because one or the other would have to sacrifice disproportionately to even try.

It's important, however, to remember that not every aspect of their relationships, plural, can be equated to real-life relationships, since, of course, real people don't lose and grow souls.

Uhuh, post ensoulment is egalitarian and not disgusting. Right, and I'm Santa Claus no doubt.

Buffy was all lovy-dovy with her attempted rapist, while said attempted rapist showed not an inch of a difference in acting and behavior (it would be bad enough if he was different, but not even that.) Spike is essentially the latest abusive, raping men that say "I'm sorry, I'll be better", gets taken back by the umpteenth gullible, lack of self-esteem women, and promptly goes back to what he was doing.

The fact that the attempted rape and the after math, is all about the attempted rapist and the victim (the frigging' title-character no less) is essentially treated as a doormat to prop up the attempted rapist is as disgusting as you can get.

Worse, Whedon's little talk about S7's Buffy/Spike theme was, get this, "To show that not all criminals (read attempted rapists and rapists) are irredeemably so they had to get back to a loving trusting relationships..."

It's bad enough the idiot doesn't even understand the relationship between the two, because a. it was never loving, and b. it wasn't even EVER trusting. Spike was a soulless, pure evil, vampire that even with a chip to keep him from directly hurting humans was constantly working to either get it out, or harm people indirectly. So there's no way to get "back" to such a relationship, they never had one.

But the truly worst thing, is that, neglecting the victim of a horrifying crime, he then has his titular, so-called feminist-role-model, do the VERY THING, that every social worker, victim help group, and general female empowering person tells them THEY SHOULD NEVER DO! The very thing that puts them back under this evil bastard's control. The very thing that makes the whole thing INEQUAL and then some.

And not a one "feminist" realizes it. Buffy is still heralded as the great feminist role model. I've read mothers statements that they let their girls watch Buffy as she's such a great role model.

Throwing up now.

Twenty years from now, when all the girls using Buffy as a role model grow up, we've turned back the clock 50 years, and all the social workers, and feminists can start from scratch in trying to get through to them you tell such bastards to stay the hell away; and preferably have him locked up in jail.

Yes, 3D Master, we get it, you think that Spike was irredeemably evil and the magical element added into the equation doesn't mean anything to you and Attempted Rapist and blah blah blah blah blah.

Don't you ever get tired of writing the same post, time and again, day in and day out, for seven years now?

Well the man does have a point.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
What you're missing is 3DM has continued to constantly bark the same spiel pretty much since the TBBS's conception--or at least season six of Buffy.

 

[Lindley]

Holding the same viewpoint for a long time isn't really a problem. It's the inability to let (perfectly valid) alternative viewpoints stand without tearing the thread off topic----usually permanently through repeated rebuttals----that's annoying. The whole "I'm right and there is no other possible explanation for anything, ever" mindset. I can be stubborn myself on a few things, but I try to be diplomatic about it at least. Plus my stubbornness tends to be more in support of good things rather than tearing down bad things, which is (I think, anyway) less annoying to most people.

 

[Ethros]

Don't you ever get tired of writing the same post, time and again, day in and day out, for seven years now?

The question is, do you actually read it? After all this time do you really care?
I see a post longer than three lines by the guy and I ain't reading it, got better things to do.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Don't you ever get tired of writing the same post, time and again, day in and day out, for seven years now?

The question is, do you actually read it? After all this time do you really care?
I see a post longer than three lines by the guy and I ain't reading it, got better things to do.

Yeah, I thought everyone just ignored his posts after reading the first line or two, and once you know he's on a Spike rant skip it and all subsequent posts.

 

[3D Master]

Holding the same viewpoint for a long time isn't really a problem. It's the inability to let (perfectly valid) alternative viewpoints stand without tearing the thread off topic----usually permanently through repeated rebuttals----that's annoying. The whole "I'm right and there is no other possible explanation for anything, ever" mindset. I can be stubborn myself on a few things, but I try to be diplomatic about it at least. Plus my stubbornness tends to be more in support of good things rather than tearing down bad things, which is (I think, anyway) less annoying to most people.

I'm perfectly capable of letting perfectly valid alternative view points stand, especially if it tears a thread of topic, however:

a. In this case, the so-called valid view point, requires one to shut down one's mind and just let a rather significant social problem go, which in this case is a big no-no. Every time I hear of the great feminist hero that is Buffy and how great a role model she is for girls, shivers run down my back. I can not, and will never shut up about this one; it's too nasty with too many horror scenarios to contemplate to just not address it when someone else already brought it up. Which rather brings me to,

b. No tearing off topic was perpetrated on my part. The topic of "equality in Buffy" and the quality of the show because of it was something that was going one in several posts across two pages of this thread already. I just joined that discussion.

c. The fact that it is annoying to people, should probably alert those people I'm right. Things usually are only annoying when the truth is spoken, a truth you don't want to acknowledge because it gets you ripped out of your pink clouds land. The truth hurts - it also incidentally sets you free.

And you can make of that what you will.

 

[Ethros]

In my skimming I did come across this-
"The fact that it is annoying to people, should probably alert those people I'm right."

Best quote ever!


How did this even get started anyway? I thought the topic was about Buffy/Twilight?
Ah, a Buffy thread on the Trek BBS + someone = permanent derailment into 'no one cares land'
Gotcha

 

[Bob The Skutter]

In my skimming I did come across this-
"The fact that it is annoying to people, should probably alert those people I'm right."

Best quote ever!


How did this even get started anyway? I thought the topic was about Buffy/Twilight?
Ah, a Buffy thread on the Trek BBS + someone = derailment

Someone said Buffy was a strong female role model, and of course that means we have to go over everything wrong with the show. Some of which we may even agree with, but for the fact even if you agree on the smallest part he so over blows it as to make you want to argue the toss with him... which we've all already done and know is pointless.

As for Twilight, I thought the movie made very little sense. The book made some, but only when you realise it's for teenage audiences. The movie removed a lot though, which I thought made it make a lot less sense... or maybe that was just because I was trying to think of it from the point of view of someone who never read the book.

 

[CorporalClegg]

In my skimming I did come across this-
"The fact that it is annoying to people, should probably alert those people I'm right."

Best quote ever!


How did this even get started anyway? I thought the topic was about Buffy/Twilight?
Ah, a Buffy thread on the Trek BBS + someone = permanent derailment into 'no one cares land'
Gotcha

I think it's only a matter of time before all Buffyverse related threads are completely outlawed on the TBBS.

 

[Ethros]

^ No, I think 3DMs dream is to be like Jasmine and we all just bow down and worship his amazingness brilliance


btw, on the subject of Buffy I really like my new av. Thought I'd play around with the contrast a bit too.
Also right now I'm listening to some THC, who played Veruca the she-wolf's band Shy in early Season 4
This song they play in The Bronze in "Wild At Heart" is awesome (takes a couple of minutes to build up and get going)

Also I see the score CD is finally getting a UK release on 26th January, and after listening to a few tracks on Youtube also, I'll definitely be getting that ASAP