Tuvok is an Idiot

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Half indian doesnt mean anything. If you were born here you are an american. If you dont speak any punjabi or urdu, you are an american.. Clearly you dont identify with the indian social group so you are therefore NOT indian.. but a person of indian descent.. and i doubt you bring all this up in casual conversation

How nice of you to decide for me what my ethnicity is or what social groups I identify with without having met me. It's statements like this that have so many posters here saying that you should drop this subject. You're making a complete fool of yourself by continuing to argue about an issue that you clearly don't understand.

--Sran

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Totally agree Sran.

OP you do not tell other people what ethnicity they are or what they are allowed to call themselves

 

[R. Star]

I didnt bring it up in the first place. One of these "stir the soup" vultures started this entire tirade by implying im some kind of closet racist..

There's no way you can spin that buddy... you made a terrible blatant racist remark in your OP. You've made more remarks since that OP. You brought all this up.

 

[Vulcan Logician]

If you watch ENT Tuvok is a very humble representation of his species.

GROAN! I am an ENT fan, though it ranks lowest on my faves list. But I HATED the portrayal of Vulcans in that series. I'm positive that there are many who share my feelings about this. (I'm relatively new to the BBS so haven't seen any threads on this though I know they exist.) Spock's legacy tainted!

And you have me puzzled, D.O.. How could you have attitudes like the ones you've expressed and be a fan of a show that often sounds themes of tolerance and understanding? You need to watch "Darmok", my friend, and absorb what it teaches.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

GROAN! I am an ENT fan, though it ranks lowest on my faves list. But I HATED the portrayal of Vulcans in that series. I'm positive that there are many who share my feelings about this. (I'm relatively new to the BBS so haven't seen any threads on this though I know they exist.) Spock's legacy tainted!

I wouldn't go that far. If anything, I have a deeper appreciation for Spock now that I've seen how human-Vulcan relations started out. I also like that both humans and Vulcans are shown to have evolved since Archer's time and have a much better relationship by the time Kirk's sitting in the center seat. The dynamic nature of both races is much more realistic than showing two groups of people that change little over more than one hundred years.

--Sran

 

[Vulcan Logician]

I wouldn't go that far. If anything, I have a deeper appreciation for Spock now that I've seen how human-Vulcan relations started out.
--Sran

I hear you. But the fact is, being arrogant and condescending isn't very logical. The pre-ENT Vulcan mythos pegged Vulcans as aloof and cold, but this WAS always mistaken for arrogance by overly-emotional humans. (McCoy, you are guilty!) Now that the mistaken human view is vindicated, this strips Vulcans of their chief principle: "Logic wins no matter how it is perceived". I appreciate the story trying to represent the "journey" of Vulcan attitudes. But logic is logic.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I hear you. But the fact is, being arrogant and condescending isn't very logical. The pre-ENT Vulcan mythos pegged Vulcans as aloof and cold, but this WAS always mistaken for arrogance by overly-emotional humans. (McCoy, you are guilty!) Now that the mistaken human view is vindicated, this strips Vulcans of their chief principle: "Logic wins no matter how it is perceived". I appreciate the story trying to represent the "journey" of Vulcan attitudes. But logic is logic.

Well, I think we should keep in mind that each Trek series is written from the perspective of humanity, so anyone who routinely opposes the values of humans, Starfleet, or the Federation is going to come off as antagonistic no matter who they are. That's why I don't read too much into the alleged personality swaps that happen between different races depending on which series they're in.

As you pointed out, Vulcans often come off as aloof or distant because they're less emotional than humans, whereas Andorians are perceived as hotheads because they tend to more emtional than their counterparts. It's all a matter of perspective, so I don't necessarily think it tarnishes the legacy of another character. As I said, I appreciate Spock more now because he isn't like his ancestors.

--Sran

 

[Vulcan Logician]

^
Right, right. But there was more to the ENT Vulcan story arc than Vulcans antagonism toward humans. At some point, at a societal level, they were almost... Romulan. Hey, I guess it's in their DNA.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^
Right, right. But there was more to the ENT Vulcan story arc than Vulcans antagonism toward humans. At some point, at a societal level, they were almost... Romulan. Hey, I guess it's in their DNA.

Good one!

--Sran

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Vulcan's were always haughty who saw emotional races as lesser. Just watch Amok Time.

And really, it makes sense. An entire species and culture roots out all that is perceives to have been its downfall. It must look on species that still embrace such folly as unenlightened at best, savages at worst.

 

[Defiant Obrien]

Vulcan's were always haughty who saw emotional races as lesser. Just watch Amok Time.

And really, it makes sense. An entire species and culture roots out all that is perceives to have been its downfall. It must look on species that still embrace such folly as unenlightened at best, savages at worst.

I rememeber the Enterprise episode that showed saurek witnessing the downfall of his society (before logic was embraced) and I always thought vulcans were inherently humble because of this. I guess after hundreds of years, this lesson gets forgotten

 

[Guy Gardener]

2000 years (By TNG.). The age of enlightenment. Saurek said Logic, the old guard said "no thank you" which was not an option. A nuclear war started. The old Guard left, founded the Romulan Star Empire and the Vulcans wallowed in a radioactive wasteland mutating horribly as their brow ridges receded pushing their brains out their ear holes like how one makes play dough spaghetti with a fun factory.

(Actually? The radiation from the war might have given the Vulcans their impressive mental abilities which Romulans have NEVER been seen to exhibit. Of course according to the Kirshara, Surak was already a telepath... But then maybe the age of Enlightenment, the atomic war lasted a century or two? No. Logic was invented as religion to cancel the impressively destructive telepathic weapons that were en vogue during the age of Surak. Never mind.)

Think about it. The Vucans didn't win their homeworld. They were left there to die. The winning side who had not just a fleet, but an armada that could be retrofitted into a generational colony fleet that went looking for a planet at sublight speeds that could support them.

Can you imagine the communication by radio for the first 20 years it took the Romulan fleet to clear the Vulcanian Solar system... "Hey, you ass hats back on Vulcan! Dead yet? Ha! ha! Fuck ya!"

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

No one has ever explained why the Romulans are not as hotheaded as Andorians or even humans.. and why they have a highly developed culture and society and have never destroyed themselves as Vulcans think is inevitable should their species allow emotion to flourish.

 

[Defiant Obrien]

No one has ever explained why the Romulans are not as hotheaded as Andorians or even humans.. and why they have a highly developed culture and society and have never destroyed themselves as Vulcans think is inevitable should their species allow emotion to flourish.

There is a TOS novel i remember reading called "The Romulan Way" which went into a LOT of detail on the origins of the romulan people. I think it was just before Sarek.. It was a killer read.. featured leonard mccoy

 

[Locutus of Bored]

One of these "stir the soup" vultures started this entire tirade by implying im some kind of closet racist..

I agree. It was wrong of these soup-stirring vultures to imply that you're in the closet.

They're probably just harassing you because they're a bunch of dirty Liechtensteiners who have drunken themselves blind and can't see your obvious open-mindedness, amirite?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

No one has ever explained why the Romulans are not as hotheaded as Andorians or even humans.. and why they have a highly developed culture and society and have never destroyed themselves as Vulcans think is inevitable should their species allow emotion to flourish.

There is a TOS novel i remember reading called "The Romulan Way" which went into a LOT of detail on the origins of the romulan people. I think it was just before Sarek.. It was a killer read.. featured leonard mccoy

I absolutely hated that book.. it's unreadable IMO. Very dated.

 

[Defiant Obrien]

No one has ever explained why the Romulans are not as hotheaded as Andorians or even humans.. and why they have a highly developed culture and society and have never destroyed themselves as Vulcans think is inevitable should their species allow emotion to flourish.

There is a TOS novel i remember reading called "The Romulan Way" which went into a LOT of detail on the origins of the romulan people. I think it was just before Sarek.. It was a killer read.. featured leonard mccoy

I absolutely hated that book.. it's unreadable IMO. Very dated.

Of course its dated. But if you read it in the context of "vintage star trek" you'd get a lot out of it. Origin stories are transient in general (look at the JJ Abrahms Star Trek for example)...

 

[Defiant Obrien]

Half indian doesnt mean anything. If you were born here you are an american. If you dont speak any punjabi or urdu, you are an american.. Clearly you dont identify with the indian social group so you are therefore NOT indian.. but a person of indian descent.. and i doubt you bring all this up in casual conversation

How nice of you to decide for me what my ethnicity is or what social groups I identify with without having met me. It's statements like this that have so many posters here saying that you should drop this subject. You're making a complete fool of yourself by continuing to argue about an issue that you clearly don't understand.

--Sran

If im wrong tell me so. If you dont care, there is no reason to respond.. since you've responded, clearly ive struck a nerve or two..

 

[Defiant Obrien]

Totally agree Sran.

OP you do not tell other people what ethnicity they are or what they are allowed to call themselves

Im not TELLING anyone anything. Im just pointing out what I assume we all agree are facts..

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There is a TOS novel i remember reading called "The Romulan Way" which went into a LOT of detail on the origins of the romulan people. I think it was just before Sarek.. It was a killer read.. featured leonard mccoy

I absolutely hated that book.. it's unreadable IMO. Very dated.

Of course its dated. But if you read it in the context of "vintage star trek" you'd get a lot out of it. Origin stories are transient in general (look at the JJ Abrahms Star Trek for example)...

Life's too short to reread books paying close attention to their vintage element which made them so unreadable in the first place.