Tuvix

[Gojira]

I finally saw this episode! Long story short. I saw the beginning of this episode on TV years ago but fell asleep watching it! (It was on late at night and I was tired)

Anyway I finally saw the episode when I bought the DVD of season 2.

I really liked this episode although I have mixed feeling about the outcome.

So how do you feel about Janeway's actions?

What was the right thing to do?

 

[froot]

Oh, this one's up there with Equinox as a can o' worms.

I think the viewer should walk away with mixed feelings after seeing this one. The writers (and actors, judging by Janeway's face in the final scene) wanted it to be that way.

However, I am a heartless and terrible person, and thus was generally fine with Janeway flipping the switch. I look at it this way: people like Chakotay could have lived with the change (by the by, his line to Janeway about Tuvix being a better creature than Tuvok when Tuvok is her oldest friend was a total dick thing to say. I'm shocked she didn't slap him. But I digress.) But people like Kes could not. If Tuvix stuck around, there would have been mountains upon mountains of resentment in the Kes camp. They would have been inwardly pissed at Tuvix and probably at Janeway for sitting on her hands.

Not to mention there was the whole selfish reason of Janeway wanting her friend back. She would have had to work every day with the guy and wonder "what if?" Kes, as well - and anyone else attached to either Tuvok or Neelix. The cat was out of the bag; the separation treatment was available. It would have hung like a specter over their heads the whole time.

Anyways, Tuvix himself helped develop his own treatment, and then suddenly backed off at the eleventh hour and got pissy. He didn't have an inkling during that whole time that the treatment would "kill" him? Why did he help?!

I dunno. YMMV, and with this episode, I'm sure it does.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I agree. Its supposed to be unsettling, and the amount of vitriole this ep elicits suggests the ep succeeded.

 

[Bishop76]

I was kind of hoping it'd go horribly wrong and kill both of them... but that's just me.

 

[exodus]

I agree. Its supposed to be unsettling, and the amount of vitriole this ep elicits suggests the ep succeeded.

Agreed.
For all the flack Voyager gets, I think eps like this, "Deathwish" & "Equinox" still stir up great moral & ethical debate long after the show is off the air. IMO that's a big plus in Voyager's corner.

 

[RyuRoots]

Frankly speaking, I think it's rather disturbing that Janeway goes through with killing Tuvix at the end. He makes an impassioned plea for his right to be, and I think he was correct. He did nothing wrong; he was a victim of circumstance and developed his own feelings for the people around him and tried to make himself useful however he could.

It's cold-blooded murder, and I think the doctor's refusal to help her makes that rather clear. That it was done purely for selfish reasons (We see that Tuvix can conduct himself well in official capacities) makes it so much worse.

 

[exodus]

Frankly speaking, I think it's rather disturbing that Janeway goes through with killing Tuvix at the end. He makes an impassioned plea for his right to be, and I think he was correct. He did nothing wrong; he was a victim of circumstance and developed his own feelings for the people around him and tried to make himself useful however he could.

It's cold-blooded murder, and I think the doctor's refusal to help her makes that rather clear. That it was done purely for selfish reasons (We see that Tuvix can conduct himself well in official capacities) makes it so much worse.

At the start of the ep., Tuvix agreed that if a cure was found he would give up his life to bring back Neelix & Tuvok.
Is Janeway a murdered or is Tuvix going back on his word?
Kes is Neelix' mate, the only thing he has left to family.
If she is considered family, he request was to bring Neelix back.
If this were a real case, wouldn't Kes' request hold weight?

The Doctor's refusal is part of him being programmed with the Hypocratic Oath. He can't operate on a patient who refuses treatment, it's part of his programming not Janeways decision.

While Janeway commited the action, I don't think she was solely alone in her choice.

Now the debate can really begin.

 

[Spirit]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It should be a simple enough solution, but it’s not. If Tuvix had more closely resembled BrundleFly, which when all is said and done is exactly what he is, the decision would have been a lot easier to make.

Additionally Tuvix was allowed to experience life. He was allowed to work and interact with the crew, effectively developing his own individual sense of self. That luxury never should have been awarded to him if it was only going to be later revoked.

 

[Shatnertage]

This is a tough one. I don't know what I would have done in Janeway's position. If I hadn't brought back Tuvok and Neelix, I'd be thinking what I would tell Tuvok's family: "Oh, I could have saved your husband/father, but I chose not to because it would have been morally ambiguous."

I probably would have made the same decision.

It would have been interesting if they'd have carried this through for a few more episodes, with Janeway distancing herself from Neelix and Tuvok because their very presence reminds her of the murder she's committed to bring them back.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It all comes down to the math.

One decision you get 2 people, the other decision you get 1 person. Maybe if the ship were overcrowded and Janeway needed to cut down on crew she had to feed she would have swung the other way.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Three people.

You're forgetting The Syphilis living in Tuvok who was enjoying the ride.

 

[flemm]

Tuvix is a good example of how not to write a moral dilemma imo.

There is not much of a dilemma. It is immoral to kill Tuvix. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is a horribly destructive idea if dogmatically applied to all situations. It has to be balanced with McCoy's principle that sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.

There is no suspense. The outcome is determined by the reset button: two regular characters are not going to disappear in favor of the guest star.

I don't blame Janeway, though, it's the writing that is poor. The episode attempts to combine a TNG-like premise with DS9-like moral ambiguity and fails at both.

 

[kimc]

You know I was thinking it's been a while since we've had a Tuvix thread....

I think the decision was the correct one. Not easy, but correct.

 

[Lord Manitou]

Frankly speaking, I think it's rather disturbing that Janeway goes through with killing Tuvix at the end. He makes an impassioned plea for his right to be, and I think he was correct. He did nothing wrong; he was a victim of circumstance and developed his own feelings for the people around him and tried to make himself useful however he could.

It's cold-blooded murder, and I think the doctor's refusal to help her makes that rather clear. That it was done purely for selfish reasons (We see that Tuvix can conduct himself well in official capacities) makes it so much worse.

This all happened because of a mal-function do to the machine. The only reason Tuvix wasn't killed at the onset is because the doctor couldn't figure it out. I suppose engineering, Harry and Janeway were confident the other two men were buffered properly in the computer- they couldn't be alive inside Tuvix.
Before long Tuvix figured his life was in danger and he goes to Kes and she goes to the captain wondering if he shouldn't be saved.
Eventually they figure it out and Janeway, the responsible captain, secures the execution.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The real question is, would Kes have not dumped Tuvix like she did Neelix?

 

[froot]

The real question is, would Kes have not dumped Tuvix like she did Neelix?

Considering how Kes was in hysterics by the end of the episode, I think she would have dumped him pretty quick if Janeway allowed him to live. Kes found Tuvix freaking creepy, and she said as much.

exodus, I don't think Janeway was alone on this one either. Tuvix himself was helping out, along with Kim and the Doc. They invented the treatment. They weren't sitting around allowing Tuvix to develop on his own on purpose just to be jerks.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was moronic to have the break up off screen.

Janeway can use this same process to divide her crew whenever she has a manpower shortage.

Any argument about numbers which validate Kathy's decision to divide Tuvix is equally as true for dividing any of her crewmen into halves, quarters, eighths, 16ths... Spare parts for her crusade.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I believe I've spent far more time reading about this episode on forums than actually watching it. I vaguely remember Kes finding him creepy. He WAS pretty fugly looking.

 

[froot]

It was moronic to have the break up off screen.

Ethan Phillips mentioned that there was actually a break-up scene that never got included (I think teacake mentioned this?)

I agree; it left the viewers wondering "well... are they or aren't they?" after "Warlord."

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It was moronic to have the break up off screen.

Ethan Phillips mentioned that there was actually a break-up scene that never got included (I think teacake mentioned this?)

I agree; it left the viewers wondering "well... are they or aren't they?" after "Warlord."

!!!

I thought Guy meant the break up of Tuvix! I was picturing lots of blood..

Yeah Ethan Phillips said at the con I went to a few weeks ago that a break up scene was filmed for the end of Warlord that was a "let's agree to just be friends" scene but it was never shown.