Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really work
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Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
The difference between how this was stated is:
I said, "IMO, Janeway was wrong." In my opinion, Janeway was wrong.
You said, "Janeway was right." You stated this as fact, not opinion. It *is* your opinion, not fact.
Please provide your telepathic credentials. Else, you cannot state what I'm thinking because you do not know. Period.
ETA: For the record, I am ambivalent about Janeway. Sometimes she's terrific, sometimes she's dicey.
I do, however, get more and more irritated with the character the more people try to shove her "perfection" down our collective throat. She makes mistakes--like any human. I'm not certain why this is such a problem to state.
We can't call each other immoral or unethical. However, we are all within our rights to say that a *fictional character* did something immoral or unethical.
You may not like the opinion, but it is allowed under board rules.
Again, your opinion. And again, sorry, your opinion does not equal fact.
The difference between how this was stated is:
I said, "IMO, Janeway was wrong." In my opinion, Janeway was wrong.
You said, "Janeway was right." You stated this as fact, not opinion. It *is* your opinion, not fact.
Please provide your telepathic credentials. Else, you cannot state what I'm thinking because you do not know. Period.
ETA: For the record, I am ambivalent about Janeway. Sometimes she's terrific, sometimes she's dicey.
I do, however, get more and more irritated with the character the more people try to shove her "perfection" down our collective throat. She makes mistakes--like any human. I'm not certain why this is such a problem to state.
We can't call each other immoral or unethical. However, we are all within our rights to say that a *fictional character* did something immoral or unethical.
You may not like the opinion, but it is allowed under board rules.
Again, your opinion. And again, sorry, your opinion does not equal fact.
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
The fact that transporters do not kill people is not an opinion but a canon fact, it is one of the premises of all the Trek series and a part of the "World" built for Trek. Anyone's opinion may be that in the real world transporters would kill people, and they are entitled to that opinion. What they are not entitled to is to say "Since I think transporters kill people then they must kill people on Trek." When you do that you are "changing" the original premise and it isn't your place to do that.
So within the "Trek" world transporters do not "Kill" people, I can state that for a fact because it is true according to the premise of the show, therefore because transporters in "Trek Canon" do not kill. The extrapolation is that both Neelix and Tuvok are alive and we saw that was true in "Trek" canon when we saw them separated and continuing to live their own lives.
I am a Kathryn Janeway lover, I have never denied that, what I will not do is try to dilute my arguments with IMOs, everyone knows that anything posted by anyone is that person's opinion and I am not going to be blackmailed into censoring what I say because someone else doesn't agree with it.
As the mod has so kindly pointed out, if you don't like my opinions you can always put me on your "Ignore" list.
Again an entirely different situation. I don't believe Sonak was combined with anyone else. In fact I am reasonably sure that they did try to reconstruct Sonak and failed, and the technology that destroyed Sonak was a generation behind the technology available to Voyager. Had it been an accident within the time frame of "Next Generation - Voyager" the technology may have been in place to have brought him back too.
Brit
The fact that transporters do not kill people is not an opinion but a canon fact, it is one of the premises of all the Trek series and a part of the "World" built for Trek. Anyone's opinion may be that in the real world transporters would kill people, and they are entitled to that opinion. What they are not entitled to is to say "Since I think transporters kill people then they must kill people on Trek." When you do that you are "changing" the original premise and it isn't your place to do that.
So within the "Trek" world transporters do not "Kill" people, I can state that for a fact because it is true according to the premise of the show, therefore because transporters in "Trek Canon" do not kill. The extrapolation is that both Neelix and Tuvok are alive and we saw that was true in "Trek" canon when we saw them separated and continuing to live their own lives.
I am a Kathryn Janeway lover, I have never denied that, what I will not do is try to dilute my arguments with IMOs, everyone knows that anything posted by anyone is that person's opinion and I am not going to be blackmailed into censoring what I say because someone else doesn't agree with it.
As the mod has so kindly pointed out, if you don't like my opinions you can always put me on your "Ignore" list.
Again an entirely different situation. I don't believe Sonak was combined with anyone else. In fact I am reasonably sure that they did try to reconstruct Sonak and failed, and the technology that destroyed Sonak was a generation behind the technology available to Voyager. Had it been an accident within the time frame of "Next Generation - Voyager" the technology may have been in place to have brought him back too.
Brit
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
When it comes to canon, we all know (to our dismay, at times) that canon can easily be thrown out the window when the writers so desire or the plot seems to require it. While the current canon says that transporters don't kill, there are myriad episodes where the entire plot is based on its malfunction. Similarly, there are times when it can only operate within a certain distance (and other times not) and when it cannot operate through shields (and other times can). I wonder if, in the case of Tuvix, the transporter had produced a horrible mess of quivering protoplasm (that was, nonetheless, alive), would we be having this debate at all? We'll never know, because that's not the way "she" wrote it.
I have to laugh when we argue about "facts'" in a fictional world. Everything in Trek can be changed (because it isn't factual) and everything is up to the perception and interpretation of the watcher. I used to lace my posts with IMHO until I was chastised for doing so. "We know it's your opinion," I was told. Now I and others are chastised for not using IMHO. For those who wonder, everything I post is IMHO.
I do think our likes/dislikes influence the way we interpret what we see--in real life and in a fictional world like Trek. There are people who dislike a character and never seem willing to look at him/her dispassionately. That's okay, as long as they are tolerant of others who have different likes/dislikes.
When it comes to canon, we all know (to our dismay, at times) that canon can easily be thrown out the window when the writers so desire or the plot seems to require it. While the current canon says that transporters don't kill, there are myriad episodes where the entire plot is based on its malfunction. Similarly, there are times when it can only operate within a certain distance (and other times not) and when it cannot operate through shields (and other times can). I wonder if, in the case of Tuvix, the transporter had produced a horrible mess of quivering protoplasm (that was, nonetheless, alive), would we be having this debate at all? We'll never know, because that's not the way "she" wrote it.
I have to laugh when we argue about "facts'" in a fictional world. Everything in Trek can be changed (because it isn't factual) and everything is up to the perception and interpretation of the watcher. I used to lace my posts with IMHO until I was chastised for doing so. "We know it's your opinion," I was told. Now I and others are chastised for not using IMHO. For those who wonder, everything I post is IMHO.
I do think our likes/dislikes influence the way we interpret what we see--in real life and in a fictional world like Trek. There are people who dislike a character and never seem willing to look at him/her dispassionately. That's okay, as long as they are tolerant of others who have different likes/dislikes.
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
Likewise, there are people who *like* a character and never seem willing to look at him/her dispassionately. That's also okay, as long as they are tolerant of others who have different likes/dislikes.
I do think our likes/dislikes influence the way we interpret what we see--in real life and in a fictional world like Trek. There are people who dislike a character and never seem willing to look at him/her dispassionately. That's okay, as long as they are tolerant of others who have different likes/dislikes.
Likewise, there are people who *like* a character and never seem willing to look at him/her dispassionately. That's also okay, as long as they are tolerant of others who have different likes/dislikes.
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
And as I have noted, I find Janeway's action in this instance to be immoral. And I am not going to be blackmailed into censoring what I say because someone else doesn't agree with it nor want to hear it.
As the mod has so kindly pointed out, if you don't like my opinions, you can always put me on "ignore."
And as I have noted, I find Janeway's action in this instance to be immoral. And I am not going to be blackmailed into censoring what I say because someone else doesn't agree with it nor want to hear it.
As the mod has so kindly pointed out, if you don't like my opinions, you can always put me on "ignore."
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
It is kind of fun to watch people get bent out of shape talking about a work of fiction with people there's a significantly good chance they'll never meet, though.
Sorry, I just think it's important to remember context sometimes.
It is kind of fun to watch people get bent out of shape talking about a work of fiction with people there's a significantly good chance they'll never meet, though.
Sorry, I just think it's important to remember context sometimes.
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
It's why most of us read, watch TV or go to the movies, it's what gets us through the so called "real life."
Brit
Given that life is what this discussion seems to hinge upon, I would certainly never make such an insensitive suggestion.
It's why most of us read, watch TV or go to the movies, it's what gets us through the so called "real life."
Brit
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
I joined this board in April of 2000, mostly posting here (yeah, it's been a while, but I'm mostly Trek talked out...) and in the DS9 forum. I can't BELIEVE people are still getting ANGRY about this!
For the record, I'm in the "it was the right decision" camp, as much as I liked Tuvix. It's called a "no-win" situation.
However, why in the hell are you guys FIGHTING over it, like it really matters? It's just a TV show and Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix are not real! I mean, I realize that people think Tuvix should have survived and I am wrong. I'm perfectly cool with that and don't see the need to fight over it, just as I don't fight about those who think Seven of Nine was a great character (those who know me know of my opinion of the character, but that's for another thread on another day.)
Pretty much, for the 9 years I've been here, here is how the Tuvix thread plays out. I didn't create this, but it's dead on accurate!
* *
"Tuvix thread blah blah" (Title)
Random post containing subject tangentially related to Tuvix.
OMG Janeway's the suxxor, she murdered him!
No she didn't. She fixed a transporter malfunction.
Yes she did she's an evil bitch!
No she didn't. She brought back two valued crew members.
Janeway is a crack whore! She had no right to murder Tuvix.
She didn't murder him...
Yes she did, don't you believe in a child's right to life?
Of course I do. Now you're insulting me.
No I'm not. If you believe Janeway murdering Tuvix is proper you hate children.
*Insert chest thumping by both sides for a few posts*
*Insert mod request to settle down*
*More chest thumping*
LOCK
* *
EVERY time!
I know it's a volatile discussion. This is obviously a compliment to the writers, who wrote the episode in a way to make us care about Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix.
But it's certainly not worth fighting over and man, I get tired of seeing mod notifies over it.
I'm mulling over putting some of those mod notifies on my dartboard instead of my usual picture of Seven of Nine or one of my old bosses!
I joined this board in April of 2000, mostly posting here (yeah, it's been a while, but I'm mostly Trek talked out...) and in the DS9 forum. I can't BELIEVE people are still getting ANGRY about this!
For the record, I'm in the "it was the right decision" camp, as much as I liked Tuvix. It's called a "no-win" situation.
However, why in the hell are you guys FIGHTING over it, like it really matters? It's just a TV show and Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix are not real! I mean, I realize that people think Tuvix should have survived and I am wrong. I'm perfectly cool with that and don't see the need to fight over it, just as I don't fight about those who think Seven of Nine was a great character (those who know me know of my opinion of the character, but that's for another thread on another day.
)Pretty much, for the 9 years I've been here, here is how the Tuvix thread plays out. I didn't create this, but it's dead on accurate!
* *
"Tuvix thread blah blah" (Title)
Random post containing subject tangentially related to Tuvix.
OMG Janeway's the suxxor, she murdered him!
No she didn't. She fixed a transporter malfunction.
Yes she did she's an evil bitch!
No she didn't. She brought back two valued crew members.
Janeway is a crack whore! She had no right to murder Tuvix.
She didn't murder him...
Yes she did, don't you believe in a child's right to life?
Of course I do. Now you're insulting me.
No I'm not. If you believe Janeway murdering Tuvix is proper you hate children.
*Insert chest thumping by both sides for a few posts*
*Insert mod request to settle down*
*More chest thumping*
LOCK
* *
EVERY time!
I know it's a volatile discussion. This is obviously a compliment to the writers, who wrote the episode in a way to make us care about Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix.
But it's certainly not worth fighting over and man, I get tired of seeing mod notifies over it.
I'm mulling over putting some of those mod notifies on my dartboard instead of my usual picture of Seven of Nine or one of my old bosses!
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
I don't see a problem in people wishing to debate something that both parties are passionate about and who have different views and opinions. I also don't believe that people in here are getting "Angry" at anything, I think writing can be taken in a multitude of different ways, many of which do not reflect the writers initial intentions.
In saying that I believe the situation was a "no-win" situation and my decision in this case was fair.
Now, If anyone would care to join me I will retire to my quarters with a good book and a fresh pot of coffee.
I don't see a problem in people wishing to debate something that both parties are passionate about and who have different views and opinions. I also don't believe that people in here are getting "Angry" at anything, I think writing can be taken in a multitude of different ways, many of which do not reflect the writers initial intentions.
In saying that I believe the situation was a "no-win" situation and my decision in this case was fair.
Now, If anyone would care to join me I will retire to my quarters with a good book and a fresh pot of coffee.
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
The book would be "The life and work of Leonardo Da Vinci: Artist and innovator"
It really is quite an intruiging read!
The book would be "The life and work of Leonardo Da Vinci: Artist and innovator"
It really is quite an intruiging read!
Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo
I also like the holodeck version, however sometimes it is good to sit with an old fashioned book and your own thoughts.
I also like the holodeck version, however sometimes it is good to sit with an old fashioned book and your own thoughts.
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