TUC: They Don't Prosecute?

[Mojochi]

Kirk: Once Again, we've saved civilization as we know it.
Bones: And the good news is, they're not going to prosecute.
Uhura: They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lt. Valeris.
Bones: (To Spock) Well, they don't arrest people for having feelings
Chekov: It's a good thing too. If they did, we'd all have to turn ourselves in

I never quite understood this exchange. There was a little bit more to arrest them on than having untrustworthy feelings. They framed the Enterprise for the murder of several Klingons, including the high chancellor, they orchestrated an assassination attempt on the Federation president, & nearly succeeded, they wrongfully imprisoned Kirk & McCoy, a battle was fought, the Klingon Bird of Prey prototype was destroyed, and they conspired to start a war.

Basically, Lt. Valeris, Admiral Cartwright, & Colonel West are all perpetrators of high treason. How do you NOT bring charges against them for that? & if that's the case, why don't they just return Valeris to her post at helm in the ending. I mean c'mon Kirk got demoted for disobeying an order. They must have an order that says don't commit treason.

 

[Nebusj]

Kirk: Once Again, we've saved civilization as we know it.
Bones: And the good news is, they're not going to prosecute.
Uhura: They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lt. Valeris.
Bones: (To Spock) Well, they don't arrest people for having feelings
Chekov: It's a good thing too. If they did, we'd all have to turn ourselves in

I never quite understood this exchange. There was a little bit more to arrest them on than having untrustworthy feelings. They framed the Enterprise for the murder of several Klingons, including the high chancellor, they orchestrated an assassination attempt on the Federation president, & nearly succeeded, they wrongfully imprisoned Kirk & McCoy, a battle was fought, the Klingon Bird of Prey prototype was destroyed, and they conspired to start a war.

Basically, Lt. Valeris, Admiral Cartwright, & Colonel West are all perpetrators of high treason. How do you NOT bring charges against them for that? & if that's the case, why don't they just return Valeris to her post at helm in the ending. I mean c'mon Kirk got demoted for disobeying an order. They must have an order that says don't commit treason.

Because ``they're not going to prosecute'' refers to us, the band of people who saved civilization as we know it. You know, Kirk, McCoy, Spock, that bunch of people who did stuff like repeatedly invading Klingon space, mind-raping a Star Fleet officer, breaching the Official Secrets Act, and assaulting the conference center at Khitomer? It's them that's not being prosecuted.

 

[Timo]

Exactly. They had just a few years earlier prosecuted our heroes for acts that (basically accidentally!) ended up saving Earth from total disaster, and McCoy would have every right to be bitter about it even if he hadn't been quite compos mentis during those events.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Because ``they're not going to prosecute'' refers to us, the band of people who saved civilization as we know it. You know, Kirk, McCoy, Spock, that bunch of people who did stuff like repeatedly invading Klingon space, mind-raping a Star Fleet officer, breaching the Official Secrets Act, and assaulting the conference center at Khitomer? It's them that's not being prosecuted.

^ But that doesn't make sense to me, in the context of the rest of the conversation that I quoted above. Uhura & Chekov seem to be suggesting it's Lt. Valeris & the other conspirators that aren't being prosecuted, which is a good thing, because if they were to prosecute "Them", then on similar grounds of having bad feelings, they'd have to prosecute "Us"

How am I misinterpreting that?

 

[Franklin]

Because ``they're not going to prosecute'' refers to us, the band of people who saved civilization as we know it. You know, Kirk, McCoy, Spock, that bunch of people who did stuff like repeatedly invading Klingon space, mind-raping a Star Fleet officer, breaching the Official Secrets Act, and assaulting the conference center at Khitomer? It's them that's not being prosecuted.

^ But that doesn't make sense to me, in the context of the rest of the conversation that I quoted above. Uhura & Chekov seem to be suggesting it's Lt. Valeris & the other conspirators that aren't being prosecuted, which is a good thing, because if they were to prosecute "Them", then on similar grounds of having bad feelings, they'd have to prosecute "Us"

How am I misinterpreting that?

After McCoy's essentially flippant remark to Kirk's flippant remark (as Timo suggests, both a reference to what happened in TVH following the crimes they committed in TSFS), Uhura is saying she feels as if she should be prosecuted as well just for sharing the feelings Lt. Valeris had about Klingons. She's feeling guilty about having the same feelings. However, Uhura (and Chekov, and the rest) did not act on those feelings. Valeris, Cartwright, and the others did. That's why McCoy says it's a good thing they can't arrest (and prosecute) someone just on feelings. Valeris and Cartwright were certainly arrested and would be prosecuted for what they actually did based on their feelings.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, the logical structure is clear. Uhura is not being prosecuted; she flippantly indicates that if the courts were consistent, they would prosecute Uhura for feeling the same as Valeris; ergo, they are prosecuting Valeris, or else "Uhura=Valeris" would not lead to "Uhura prosecuted".

What actually happens to Valeris or Cartwright is left unestablished. Our heroes may believe the villains will be prosecuted, but that doesn't necessarily match the facts of the matter - it's too early for them to be able to tell. Similarly, the court may yet harass our heroes for their role - again, it's too early to tell. The discussion isn't about the true juridical details of the case, it's about humorous relief at the end of a demanding adventure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

Well let's examine some of the crimes that the Enterprise crew could be charged with

Violating Orders (they were ordered to report back to spacedock)

Lying to Command (There was nothing wrong with the Enterprises warp drive)

Invading Klingon Space

Breaking out Prisoners

Escaping from Prison (might have been falsely imprisoned but that's a seperate issue)

Mind Rape

Operating whilst possible intoxicated

There was plenty of charges that could have been brought against them, had command wished to but they saved civilisation once again at it would have been a bad PR move. The Feds could spin it as once agai Kirk saves the day. And the Klingons could spin it as the honourable Kirk kills the cowards that assisnated Gorkon etc..

 

[Timo]

Invading Klingon Space
Breaking out Prisoners
Escaping from Prison (might have been falsely imprisoned but that's a seperate issue)

Would any of these be offenses? Supposedly, there was a state of war between the two powers, and no formal deals in place (since the Organian Peace Treaty clauses would probably have been rendered null and void when Peace ceased to be). Invading without orders would still be bad manners, but breaking out of a Klingon prison might even be Kirk's sworn duty!

Mind Rape

Spock had done that so many times that it's a bit difficult to believe it would be a punishable offense.

Then again, Kirk drinking on duty was probably a repeating occurrence as well (he did have a hefty store of spirits aboard, and was on duty practically all the time), and failure to prosecute might come from the privileges of being in deep space in both cases.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ssosmcin]

Maybe it's me, but honestly, I just took it as McCoy making an ironic joke. "We saved the galaxy and we didn't get in trouble." That's it. Kelley's delivery was too light for me to get any deeper meaning from it.

McCoy was full of dud wisecracks this movie.

 

[UssGlenn]

but breaking out of a Klingon prison might even be Kirk's sworn duty!

Using "The Great Escape" as an example, POW's have a duty to try to escape and thus cause the enemy to expend as much energy as possible trying to keep them.

 

[Mojochi]

OH!!!! It's a dud wisecrack! It's so awful, that years later, and I still haven't gotten it. He's joking that in the end, for once, they aren't being tried for their actions. Gawd, it's so awkwardly written, and the others convolute the gag even more, by trying to play it into a conversation. Man, the movie could've done without that bit, if you ask me.

Geez, I couldn't even make sense of it. Thanks everybody

 

[Trekker4747]

I never understood Uhura's remark. Maybe it's the line, the delivery, or something but what does she mean she felt like Valeris?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They didn't prosecute Kirk and crew because Kirk was right.

The only reason the Ent-A crew did what they did was because they were victims of Chang and Cartwright's conspiracy. Kirk's subsequent actions were not only to free himself and McCoy, but to expose that conspiracy and bring Cartwright's bunch to justice. It would take a total lack of ethics to prosecute Kirk for that.

 

[RandyS]

They didn't prosecute Kirk and crew because Kirk was right.

The only reason the Ent-A crew did what they did was because they were victims of Chang and Cartwright's conspiracy. Kirk's subsequent actions were not only to free himself and McCoy, but to expose that conspiracy and bring Cartwright's bunch to justice. It would take a total lack of ethics to prosecute Kirk for that.

True, but the kids today are used to never-ending angst and brooding characters, and don't remember that it wasn't always that way, and I think THAT is the real objection here.

 

[Timo]

I never understood Uhura's remark. Maybe it's the line, the delivery, or something but what does she mean she felt like Valeris?

Valeris never spoke of her beliefs within earshot of Uhura as far as we know, and I doubt Spock quoted his private conversations with her, so probably Uhura is merely presuming.

But it does look as if Valeris felt that Klingons were bad people all; that a war to defeat them when they were on their knees would be a good thing; and that getting that war started was sufficient justification for killing a few Klingons, including their peacenik leader, because Klingon heads would soon roll anyway. It wouldn't be out of place for Uhura to feel the same, even if she might balk at assassinating the UFP President (but then again, Valeris stopped short of letting that happen, too).

They didn't prosecute Kirk and crew because Kirk was right.

That's not really a valid defense in court - but it is a valid reason in practice to turn a blind eye. Yet in practice, Kirk might just as well be crucified to appease the Klingons and secure the peace. He did commit great offenses, not under duress or acting within his authority, but merely with good intent, and that defense wouldn't float if the court were told to burn Kirk. Or even if the court were told nothing; it would take political pressure to get Kirk off the hook if this thing ever went to court.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[wulfio]

Valeris wasn't arrested for her feelings. She was arrested for conspiracy. Uhura and Chekov simply stated that everyone agreed with Valeris point of view. Not that they would be prosecuted for it. It was small talk, you're taking it way too literal.

 

[MacLeod]

They didn't prosecute Kirk and crew because Kirk was right.

The only reason the Ent-A crew did what they did was because they were victims of Chang and Cartwright's conspiracy. Kirk's subsequent actions were not only to free himself and McCoy, but to expose that conspiracy and bring Cartwright's bunch to justice. It would take a total lack of ethics to prosecute Kirk for that.

We witnessed in TVH The Enterprise command crew being prosecuted for amongest other things.


Failing to obey the chain of command.

In TUC we are clearly told they are to return to spacedock, they refuse that order. It's clear cut they disobeyed a direct order.

Assult on Federation Officers

Spock probing Valeris mind, could constitute an assult


Sure Kirk and the Enterprise crew may have been right, but two wrongs don't make a right. But just like in TVH events meant that little to no action was taken.

 

[Timo]

Spock probing Valeris mind, could constitute an assault

Could, yes, but probably doesn't. Spock had probed the minds of several Starfleet officers prior to this incident (not to mention nerve-pinched or violently beaten several, even strangling one to death!). It's difficult to see any illegality to the act in light of this.

On more general terms, Valeris' right to privacy of thought is debatable to begin with. No such right has been mentioned anywhere in Star Trek, and examples to the contrary are legion. OTOH, Valeris is Spock's subordinate in a hierarchy that further limits her rights from the civilian standard.

Nor is there any indication she would find it possible to resist the treatment, even though she shows no fear of speaking her mind or otherwise using verbalization to her advantage in this supposedly threatening situation. If Spock were violating her, or planning to, would she not point this out?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[-Brett-]

but breaking out of a Klingon prison might even be Kirk's sworn duty!

Using "The Great Escape" as an example, POW's have a duty to try to escape and thus cause the enemy to expend as much energy as possible trying to keep them.

Except that the W in POW stands for war. They weren't POW's, just plain P's. Legally, prisoners have no right to break out or be broken out of prison. They're supposed to wait for the conviction to be overturned.

 

[Timo]

Sure they were prisoners of war. Klingons themselves insisted that there was no peace - so no Klingon law would hold Federation citizens, and the more Klingons Kirk killed while breaking out, the more laudable his actions in face of Federation law.

The Federation President insisted that he wasn't above law, meaning Klingon law. But he could have just as well said that he was, because today's presidents in corresponding situations would be. It was simply politics: pretending that there was peace would make it less impossible for there to be peace one day.

Timo Saloniemi