TSFS- Nitpicks, Info, etc

[Mr Silver]

Hello, Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

However I've noticed that many users on the forum here are very good at looking at details and coming to conclusions, so without further ado

#1: What happened exactly to the Genesis Planet? I know it was basically destroying itself, but do you think theres a possibility that it remained as either a molten planet or as a barren rock (similar to Regula)?

#2: If Spock was regenerated without his mind, How exactly did he manage to open the lid of the photon tube and walk a significant distance to the Arctic sector? I mean did his body somehow fall out over the Arctic sector as the Photon Casket was soft landing on Genesis? Or did someone move him?! It is possible to learn how to walk on instinct, however as a child, Spock was no where near strong enough or developed physically to instinctively do anything, except of course scream! (as evidenced by Marcus carrying him) As a teenager he could only walk aided by Saavik and again as a young adult he walked in an almost caveman fashion

So thoughts?

 

[Therin of Andor]

#1: What happened exactly to the Genesis Planet? I know it was basically destroying itself, but do you think theres a possibility that it remained as either a molten planet or as a barren rock (similar to Regula)?

It appeared to blow to smithereens. Depends how big a smithereen is.

#2: If Spock was regenerated without his mind, How exactly did he manage to open the lid of the photon tube and walk a significant distance to the Arctic sector? I mean did his body somehow fall out over the Arctic sector as the Photon Casket was soft landing on Genesis?

"Snow! Snow in the same sector!" David Marcus was surprised that snow was falling right next to desert terrain.

Or did someone move him?! It is possible to learn how to walk on instinct

A baby Vulcan can crawl a long way. Like a postman: through rain or hail or sleet or snow.

however as a child, Spock was no where near strong enough or developed physically to instinctively do anything

Huh?

(as evidenced by Marcus carrying him) As a teenager he could only walk aided by Saavik and again as a young adult he walked in an almost caveman fashion

Huh? David carrying Young Spock was simply to speed up the pace a bit. The kid was barefooted in the snow and yet born to live on a sand planet.

I saw no evidence that as a teen Spock had to be constantly assisted to walk by Saavik.

 

[Mr Silver]

It appeared to blow to smithereens. Depends how big a smithereen is.

True

"Snow! Snow in the same sector!"

David Marcus was surprised that snow was falling right next to desert terrain.

A baby Vulcan can crawl a long way. Like a postman: through rain or hail or sleet or snow.

Ok maybe I made a mistake with that, however it still doesn't explain how infant Spock managed to not only open a sealed casket (it would have been sealed, or Spock's body would burn up in the atmosphere and thus there would be nothing left to regenerate)

Huh?

From a biological point of view, a child doesn't learn to walk until (I think the earliest was 6 months) because the spine isn't quite developed, now Vulcans being Vulcans, still I don't see how a Vulcan baby could just up and walk, after all Spock was aging much slower up until the Pon'Far scene where he began to age at around 7 years every couple of hours, until he reached his age at his death, Its just that I don't see how a mindless child with no reference could learn how to walk

I saw no evidence that as a teen Spock had to be constantly assisted to walk by Saavik.

I recall her supporting him during the part where the Klingons rudely awake them and force them to move to where Kruge is, in this scene Saavik is almost carrying Spock

Later on as an adult Spock doesn't walk he kind of hops, while being hunched over and throws the Klingon Officer as a defense instinct, what I'm getting at is that these are adult instincts to survive, as a child Spock wouldn't be aware of the dangers around him, while as an adult he would have this survival insinct, such as attacking the Klingon Officer and finding a way to manouver himself

 

[Mr Silver]

Another thing that bothered me about the film, was the vagueness to where Spock's body was, For instance it never occured to Saavik, Marcus and Esteban that Spock's body was on Genesis until they discovered the tube and even then they still speculated as to how it got there "Gravitational Fields Must Have Been In Flux", etc

I say this because in TWOK, Kirk clearly states in his log that he fired Spocks body onto Genesis, not only that, but Sarek also knew Spock was on Genesis, so why was it such a suprise to the Grissom crew, after all it wasn't exactly classified information

Later on Marcus even states, in reference to the Genesis Worms "Microbes, we shot them there from Enterprise" a serious contradiction if Marcus had no knowledge of Spocks body being on Genesis, so the real question here is:

"Did Marcus and Saavik act suprised because Kirk wanted to keep it quiet that Spock was laid to rest on Genesis (only informing his Senior Officers, Spock's Family and of course Admiral Morrow) or was this some serious continunity error taking place on the same production?!

 

[Christopher]

The intent was for the torpedo to burn up in the atmosphere. That's why David and Saavik were surprised that it had "soft-landed."

As for the fate of the Genesis Planet, you're right, we didn't actually see it disintegrate. We saw one very large eruption into space as the Bird of Prey flew away, but that was the last we saw of Genesis. So there's no proof that it disintegrated completely, and from a gravitational standpoint, such an occurrence is very unlikely. Based on what we saw, it would probably have ended up as a molten rock with a ring of debris in orbit.

 

[Mr Silver]

The intent was for the torpedo to burn up in the atmosphere. That's why David and Saavik were surprised that it had "soft-landed."

As for the fate of the Genesis Planet, you're right, we didn't actually see it disintegrate. We saw one very large eruption into space as the Bird of Prey flew away, but that was the last we saw of Genesis. So there's no proof that it disintegrated completely, and from a gravitational standpoint, such an occurrence is very unlikely. Based on what we saw, it would probably have ended up as a molten rock with a ring of debris in orbit.

Fascinating, I never considered that they thought the tube would disintegrate upon atmosphere, I always assumed that they knew Genesis wouldn't have yet had an atmosphere when they shot Spock's body at the planet

With the Genesis Planet remaining as a molten rock, did the Federation still impose bans on travelling to the Mutara Sector? After all the Mutara Sector, canonically is a days high warp travel from the Sol Sector and a few hours away from Vulcan, so its bound to be somewhere very close to the Federations side of the Neutral Zone (as Kruge said "Set course, Federation Neutral Zone)

 

[Christopher]

Fascinating, I never considered that they thought the tube would disintegrate upon atmosphere, I always assumed that they knew Genesis wouldn't have yet had an atmosphere when they shot Spock's body at the planet

Screencap at TrekCore:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd1101.jpg

The Genesis Planet had clouds at the time the torpedo was fired, so yeah, they would know it had an atmosphere at the time.

With the Genesis Planet remaining as a molten rock, did the Federation still impose bans on travelling to the Mutara Sector?

I doubt the whole sector would be off-limits, though there might be some security or safety restrictions on the Mutara/Genesis system itself.

 

[Indysolo]

Didn't the Trek II novelization say that Saavik set the coordinates for the torpedo so that it wouldn't burn up in the atmosphere?

Trek III's chronology was played with in post-production. According to the script the first scene was supposed to be the Grissom arriving at Genesis (which is why that sequence, in the middle of the movie, still has the stardate on-screen) and finding Spock's tube. This is how Sarek knew that Spock's body was on Genesis.

Neil

 

[Mr Silver]

Didn't the Trek II novelization say that Saavik set the coordinates for the torpedo so that it wouldn't burn up in the atmosphere?

Trek III's chronology was played with in post-production. According to the script the first scene was supposed to be the Grissom arriving at Genesis (which is why that sequence, in the middle of the movie, still has the stardate on-screen) and finding Spock's tube. This is how Sarek knew that Spock's body was on Genesis.

Neil

Yeah i've read some of the early scripts, I think it would have lost some of the dramatic pace of the film if it just went straight to the Grissom sequence

 

[Timo]

#1: What happened exactly to the Genesis Planet? I know it was basically destroying itself, but do you think theres a possibility that it remained as either a molten planet or as a barren rock (similar to Regula)?

Just as an aside, it seems possible that Genesis was Regula. After all, the Genesis device had been programmed to convert a dead planet into a living one, not to muck with nebulae or the like. And Regula was probably the only planet in the neighborhood, if the Trek conventions of planetary naming are upheld here. And the Genesis action did take place in the neighborhood, as we e.g. still could see the local star.

#2: If Spock was regenerated without his mind, How exactly did he manage to open the lid of the photon tube and walk a significant distance to the Arctic sector?

Why would the distance be significant? For all we know, the arctic sector was the tropical sector. After all, there's a cactus in there, quickly being covered in snow, as our heroes first stumble into blizzard territory.

it still doesn't explain how infant Spock managed to not only open a sealed casket

Might be that the casket opens with trivial ease from the inside, simply because there's no reason for it not to; the interior occupants don't usually make any sort of an effort at opening the thing.

This is how Sarek knew that Spock's body was on Genesis.

Of course, even the way the movie was ultimately put together, it's perfectly valid for a Vulcan to know where his son's body lies - it's just another extension of his Amazing Telepathic Powers. (Aka wishful thinking: "I'm sure my son's corpse is still intact, why wouldn't it be? I can feel it in my telepathic bones, I can. Always giving me this ache. Especially on the left side here.")

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

... again as a young adult he walked in an almost caveman fashion

This puts me in mind of the ancient people who went from SE Asia, north, across the land bridge and down into the Americas.

They covered extreme distances ... walking like cavemen

 

[Christopher]

^Well, "cavemen" walked the same way we do. Our ancestors started walking erect over 3 million years ago, before there even was a genus Homo.

 

[JarodRussell]

Didn't the Trek II novelization say that Saavik set the coordinates for the torpedo so that it wouldn't burn up in the atmosphere?

Trek III's chronology was played with in post-production. According to the script the first scene was supposed to be the Grissom arriving at Genesis (which is why that sequence, in the middle of the movie, still has the stardate on-screen) and finding Spock's tube. This is how Sarek knew that Spock's body was on Genesis.

Neil

Now that does explain things.

 

[Mr Silver]

^Well, "cavemen" walked the same way we do. Our ancestors started walking erect over 3 million years ago, before there even was a genus Homo.

My mistake! Teenage Spock walked with a noticeable limp and a slight hunch,suggesting that even though his spinal column was adult, nonetheless he had not had adequate experience using his muscles and limbs to walk

Its kind of like an infant, as they get older their spine get stronger allowing them to sit up, crawl and eventually walk. However they walk by imitating those they see around them (adults) they see how we move and emulate it

Also its like someone who has been confined to a wheelchair for a long period of time who has had an operate to allow them to walk again, even though they know how to walk, they still can't do it right of the cuff, they need to undergo therapy and exercise their limbs

 

[Captrek]

How come Uhura was all but written out of TSFS? Did Nichols have a conflict, or was it an artistic decision?

 

[Therin of Andor]

How come Uhura was all but written out of TSFS? Did Nichols have a conflict, or was it an artistic decision?

Artistic decision.

There's an excellent Harve Bennett interview about this in a "Starlog" of the day. He promised all the second stringers something meaty to do, if he could, and he was very proud of the scene he wrote for Nichelle to really vamp it up with the young lieutenant.

When she received the script, Nichelle immediately rang Harve and was bewildered and upset that her part was so tiny. He asked, "Nichelle, did you read the scene?" No, she admitted; she hadn't. She'd literally only counted the number of lines. He told her to go back and read the scene and she was soon back on the phone excited about how much fun the scene would be.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Just as an aside, it seems possible that Genesis was Regula. After all, the Genesis device had been programmed to convert a dead planet into a living one, not to muck with nebulae or the like. And Regula was probably the only planet in the neighborhood, if the Trek conventions of planetary naming are upheld here. And the Genesis action did take place in the neighborhood, as we e.g. still could see the local star.

Nah, Genesis was The Reliant. The device had to be delivered to "a lifeless space body, a moon, or other dead form." In other words, not fired in orbit or "somewhere in the solar system." It was on the Reliant, and Khan was dead or nearly dead. Unless there were other survivors on the ship, Reliant was considered a dead form. Protomatter could have been responsible for turning a starship and nebula into a fully formed planet. Since the device did dissolve the nebula, I can see that it can suck in stuff from the immediate vicinity. Regula wasn't far away, but there was nothing to indicate the planetoid was caught. However, they were still in the solar system, so the Genesis planet would orbit the Regula star. I can only assume they didn't call it the "Regula System" in TSFS because they didn't want to confuse anyone new in the audience and have to catch up anyone who didn't see TWOK.

If you look at it, the creation of Genesis doesn't make any sense, even within the rules created for TWOK. If we are to believe the proposal recorded by Carol, the Genesis device was meant to convert a dead spatial body into a living one, not convert any floating matter into a life sustaining planet. Otherwise, they could have tested the damned thing anywhere on any piece of crap ship they were going to junk.

 

[Jeyl]

My favorite nitpick on TSFS is the attempt at making David feel guilty over the Genesis experiment. After admitting that he used proto-matter to solve certain problems. If it wasn't for SFdebris, I never would have figured it out, but here's what Saavik says (Not 100%, but darn close).

"So like your father, you changed the rules. How many have paid the price for your impatience? How many have died? What damage have you done, and what is yet to come?"

Uh, Saavik. Those who died because of Genesis wasn't because of David changing the rules, it was because a mad man heard about the device, wanted it, and murdered anyone that wouldn't tell him anything.

Also, LOOK WHO'S NOW ALIVE! Genesis has brought back Spock! Granted his mind is void, but good god. If anything, David's tampering with the Genesis actually brought back Spock!

 

[Mr Silver]

If you look at it, the creation of Genesis doesn't make any sense, even within the rules created for TWOK. If we are to believe the proposal recorded by Carol, the Genesis device was meant to convert a dead spatial body into a living one, not convert any floating matter into a life sustaining planet. Otherwise, they could have tested the damned thing anywhere on any piece of crap ship they were going to junk.

Thats one thing that does bother me, I mean the way i've seen it there are three possibilities

1.) Genesis was formed as the device detonated within the Reliant, the Raw materials, both biological and technological formed with the matrix to create the Genesis Planet (extremely obscure but possible)

2.) Genesis was formed by the gaseous materials of the Mutara Nebula in combination with the Genesis Wave, the Shockwave converted most of the Nebula into "Pre-Animate Matter" (as Carol Marcus calls it) and then imploded back into a planetary form

3.) A combination of both the above


I agree with ssosmcin, its vagueness is ridiculous considering the importance of Project Genesis (and indeed the scientific facts with it) in TWOK, the importance established should have been explored further in TSFS (since we actually visited the planet)

Some people have suggested that the reason Genesis failed was because of the unsuitable variables caused by one or all of three things, 1.) The Genetically Engineered biomaterial from Khan and his followers, 2.) The Mutara Nebula, not being completely lifeless and 3.) The combination of Technological variables such as the technology aboard the Reliant being mixed with the Genesis Matrix

 

[Ssosmcin]

My favorite nitpick on TSFS is the attempt at making David feel guilty over the Genesis experiment. After admitting that he used proto-matter to solve certain problems. If it wasn't for SFdebris, I never would have figured it out, but here's what Saavik says (Not 100%, but darn close).

"So like your father, you changed the rules. How many have paid the price for your impatience? How many have died? What damage have you done, and what is yet to come?"

Uh, Saavik. Those who died because of Genesis wasn't because of David changing the rules, it was because a mad man heard about the device, wanted it, and murdered anyone that wouldn't tell him anything.

Also, LOOK WHO'S NOW ALIVE! Genesis has brought back Spock! Granted his mind is void, but good god. If anything, David's tampering with the Genesis actually brought back Spock!

Actually, though, if David never used protomatter, then Genesis wouldn't have been completed. Khan would not have heard about it because nobody would have gone to his planet. It wouldn't have blown up in the nebula, then there would be no reason for the USS Grissom to be destroyed by Klingons who also wouldn't have anything to hear about. So yeah, his actions really did set it into motion.

However, if a few years later, he and his mom got it to work without cheating, a lot of this might still have happened eventually.