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Trying to recapture the spirit of TOS/TNG = The end of Trek

Gotham Central

Vice Admiral
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First let me say that I enjoy TOS and TNG. I've recently started rewatching the reruns of TNG on the sci-fi channel and I'd forgotten how much I loved the show. That said, I think that Star Trek started going off the rails the moment it started looking backward instead of forward.

TOS and TNG are good on their own merrits, but they represent a particular time and place. Their quality and success are the result of a number of planned and unplanned decisions/chances. Despite their similarities to one another, the two shows are fundamentally different. When you go back and look at TNG from its inception, you realize that it was never trying to be TOS. In some sense it was the exact opposite of its predecessor. TNG took the Trek franchise in a fundamentally new direction from TOS and its subsequent movies. GR and the producers never tried to make it TOS (which earned them a lot of flak from fans intitially). Yet TNG found its own voice and added to the larger tapestry of the Trek Universe.

DS9 was always envisioned as something of a radical departure from either series. It was intentionally designed to be something new. Again, the producers were looking forward and trying fundamentally new ideas. Interestingly enough, DS9, rather than "boldly going," took the pre-existing trek universe and gave it depth. Instead of exploring new races and ideas every week, it took ideas shown in both TOS and TNG and explored them to their logical conclusion. It was the same trek, just in a different direction.

I think that Star Trek started to really go wrong when this meme of "recapturing TOS or TNG" started to take hold. Thus Voyage and Enterprise, two shows that should have felt nothing like anything that preceeded them, felt more like warmed over Trek. The characters would not have seemed out of place on the Enterprise (more precisely the Enterprise D).

To me, for any spinoff to be successful, it needs to offer viewers something new. It can have hits of familiarity, but must take the show in a new direction. Star Trek stopped doing that, and instead scrambled to make a product reminicent of what came before. Risk was avoided at all cost (its sad that Enterprise only started taking risk when it was on choping block).
 
*sighs* Here we go again. Let's make this really simple:


TOS and TNG were/are popular and successful entertainment phenomenons.

DS9 was never/isn't. Outside of a fringe group, few watch or care about DS9.

VGR and ENT never came close to the spirit or the quality of TOS/TNG--because they didn't have a guiding vision except to make UPN successful.

I think the discussion cannot be made more simple and clear than that.
 
DS9 captured and carried on TOS's spirit immaculately. They probably weren't pro-actively trying to, though, which is ironically, why they were able to.

The other modern Trek shows, which all tried to be direct rehashes of, and therefore presumably capture the spirit of TOS, failed miserably at doing so.

A Poll on this very board a couple of years ago with the question like "Which series best captured the spirit of TOS?", was won by DS9 by a landslide. :techman:
 
DS9 captured and carried on TOS's spirit immaculately. They probably weren't pro-actively trying to, though, which is ironically, why they were able to.

The other modern Trek shows, which all tried to be direct rehashes of, and therefore presumably capture the spirit of TOS, failed miserably at doing so.

A Poll on this very board a couple of years ago with the question like "Which series best captured the spirit of TOS?", was won by DS9 by a landslide. :techman:

Navaros,

I watched the first two eps of DS9 and hated it. It was like watching paint dry. Now, I am a huge TOS fan and even have a TOS bathroom in the man cave! :)

I am thinking of buying the DS9 collection because there are some very vocal supporters like you that endorse it. I'm going to give it another shot. I hope you guys are right...
 
FWIW, Squire, back in the usenet days, when DS9 was polarizing fannish opinion, I found a fair number of old TOS fans liked DS9 a lot, whereas many of the fans who came in with TNG preferred Voyager.

DS9, with its focus on exploring a few cultures in detail, was obviously different from the planet of the week approach of TOS and TNG. However, unlike TNG, DS9 had a cast of characters who weren't perfect. Even when working together and being on the same side, they were capable of having really serious disagreements and conflicts. An episode like "Balance of Terror," which has all that tension on the bridge when the Romulans are revealed as looking just like Vulcans, couldn't happen on TNG. It could happen on DS9, though.

That's not to say you should necessarily go out and spend a hell of a lot of money on DS9 DVDs; you still may find you don't care for it. Rent it or keep an eye out for reruns on TV.
 
FWIW, Squire, back in the usenet days, when DS9 was polarizing fannish opinion, I found a fair number of old TOS fans liked DS9 a lot, whereas many of the fans who came in with TNG preferred Voyager.

DS9, with its focus on exploring a few cultures in detail, was obviously different from the planet of the week approach of TOS and TNG. However, unlike TNG, DS9 had a cast of characters who weren't perfect. Even when working together and being on the same side, they were capable of having really serious disagreements and conflicts. An episode like "Balance of Terror," which has all that tension on the bridge when the Romulans are revealed as looking just like Vulcans, couldn't happen on TNG. It could happen on DS9, though.

Oh, Fo' Sure. I've always felt that DS9 was more of an inheritor of TOS than TNG. DS9 had characters who were prone to make mistakes, weren't perfect and occasionally didn't get along, but still respected and liked each other. Much like TOS. Unlike TNG, DS9 also was able to poke fun at itself and have an episode for laughs. TNG was just so damn serious most of the time. DS9 had more color in it, just like TOS. TNG felt monochromatic.
 
Recapturing the spirit of TOS has been the goal of every Trek show from season three of TNG onward. That whole ethic has been reflected in writers of each series, from Mike Piller, to Ron Moore, to Mike Sussman, to Manny Coto and many inbetween.
 
I watched the first two eps of DS9 and hated it. It was like watching paint dry. Now, I am a huge TOS fan and even have a TOS bathroom in the man cave! :)

I am thinking of buying the DS9 collection because there are some very vocal supporters like you that endorse it. I'm going to give it another shot. I hope you guys are right...

Many/most DS9 fans will admit that the first season or two of DS9 is not nearly so good as the rest of the series is (although they do have some great episodes in them).

I personally agree with you that the first two eps of DS9 are like watching paint dry. I never watched DS9 after the first episode when it originally debuted precisely because I was bored to tears by it and I had always been a TOS fan and was expecting the same qualities in DS9 that were in TOS. It certainly didn't seem like there were any similarities in DS9's first episode. I re-discovered DS9 as an adult in reruns a couple of years after it went off the air . That's when I realized that when taken as a whole series, it becomes clear that TOS & DS9 share many of the same qualities and are the closest-related of all the Trek series in terms of their spirit. :techman:
 
I watched the first two eps of DS9 and hated it. It was like watching paint dry. Now, I am a huge TOS fan and even have a TOS bathroom in the man cave! :)

I am thinking of buying the DS9 collection because there are some very vocal supporters like you that endorse it. I'm going to give it another shot. I hope you guys are right...

Many/most DS9 fans will admit that the first season or two of DS9 is not nearly so good as the rest of the series is (although they do have some great episodes in them).

I personally agree with you that the first two eps of DS9 are like watching paint dry. I never watched DS9 after the first episode when it originally debuted precisely because I was bored to tears by it and I had always been a TOS fan and was expecting the same qualities in DS9 that were in TOS. It certainly didn't seem like there were any similarities in DS9's first episode. I re-discovered DS9 as an adult in reruns a couple of years after it went off the air . That's when I realized that when taken as a whole series, it becomes clear that TOS & DS9 share many of the same qualities and are the closest-related of all the Trek series in terms of their spirit. :techman:

I'm glad you agree that the first couple eps were rough. I was pumped up for the debut and it really fell flat. I will give it another shot. I'm liking Voyager a lot now too. Enterprise, not so sure about.
 
DS9 captured and carried on TOS's spirit immaculately. They probably weren't pro-actively trying to, though, which is ironically, why they were able to.

The other modern Trek shows, which all tried to be direct rehashes of, and therefore presumably capture the spirit of TOS, failed miserably at doing so.

A Poll on this very board a couple of years ago with the question like "Which series best captured the spirit of TOS?", was won by DS9 by a landslide. :techman:

I agree..TNG is not dating well, IMO, but DS9 is...and why? TNG was TOS done they way GR wanted it to be done. In fact TNG is really just PHASE TWO, with the same music and all, updated for the 80s and 90s. (and its why THE CHILD was pretty much adapted straight to TNG.)

DS9 was the last original STAR TREK concept. Everything else, movies and series that came after DS9 was a retread....and that is why even TNG lost it's luster. They just ran out of 'ship based' stuff about 200 hours earlier...

Robert Scorpio
WSB agent CK-8
 
You will never recapture the spirit of TNG.

Patrick Stewart's Jean-Luc Picard and Brent Spiner's Data are irrepeatable.

Our culture and society are changing so rapidly there may not be a way for Star Trek to become a successful franchise in the future.
 
Two things:

1) While I am certainly not a niner, I think that DS9 is being treated pretty shabbily in this thread. The show has aged well and, IMHO, gets better with subsequent viewings. I like the show far more now than when it was on.

2) As for the spirit of TOS, I think that, in their own ways, ALL of the later series have to some extent captured the spirit of TOS. You can see shades and echoes of TOS in all of them, but they each broke new ground in their own right.
 
You will never recapture the spirit of TNG.

Patrick Stewart's Jean-Luc Picard and Brent Spiner's Data are irrepeatable.

Our culture and society are changing so rapidly there may not be a way for Star Trek to become a successful franchise in the future.

While they were definitely unique, the same could be said of Kirk and Spock, no? They were all different and all great, imo.
 
They don't need to capture the spirit of anything instead they should focus on making a show good so it can have it's own "spirit".
 
Many/most DS9 fans will admit that the first season or two of DS9 is not nearly so good as the rest of the series is (although they do have some great episodes in them).

Not me. The first season is a bit weak, but I absolutely loved "Emissary." It's my favourite modern Trek premiere episode. The first season also had episodes like "Duet" and "In the Name of the Prophets," which are nothing to sneer at, and even the weak episodes have great character moments that shouldn't be missed.

As for the second season, the opening three-parter Circle trilogy was phenomenal. "Necessary Evil" was a chilling trip back to Terok Nor. "Whispers," "Blood Oath," "Crossover," and "The Collaborator" are classics, and "The Wire" is one of the best Star Trek episodes of any series. A lot of the other episodes in that season are good, solid Star Trek, too.
 
Despite their similarities to one another, the two shows are fundamentally different.
They absolutely are. Of all the spinoff series, DS9 is the one that's most like TOS once you ignore all the surface elements and actually take a look at what those series were about.

TNG is about as different as you could get and still call it Star Trek. Which is why nobody is trying to recapture the spirit of TNG (snore). It's TOS they're recapturing, and that is timeless enough that it could be perfectly timely today.

I don't care that much if DS9 is ever revived in terms of location, characters, time period, etc. If Abrams is successful at recapturing TOS and changing some surface attributes to make it more appealing to modern audiences, he is going to be reviving DS9, or at least what I loved about it.
TOS and TNG were/are popular and successful entertainment phenomenons.

DS9 was never/isn't. Outside of a fringe group, few watch or care about DS9.

VGR and ENT never came close to the spirit or the quality of TOS/TNG--because they didn't have a guiding vision except to make UPN successful.

I think the discussion cannot be made more simple and clear than that.
Sorry, there is a crucial complicating factor that you're ignoring: the dramatic balkanization of the entertainment audience over the last 15 to 20 years. No Star Trek series will ever get the ratings TNG did because series don't get ratings like that anymore. All genres of TV are down in the ratings because there are 300 channels, video games, the internet, DVDs, etc now. The sliding ratings have nothing to do with quality (obviously, since DS9 was the best series) and everything to do with trends in the TV business.

And you're also forgetting that TOS was cancelled for poor ratings in its third season. That makes it the least successful Star Trek series of all time. Even ENT made it through four. ;)

Star Trek can certainly survive on TV again, but not with TNG style ratings. Fortunately there are many sci fi series that do just fine without that level of ratings. Since ratings are down for everything, what constitutes a "hit series" has also settled to a lower level. Increasingly, DVD sales and paid downloads will make up the difference, which is a trend that will be good for "niche" series that cater to a smaller audience, but a more loyal one that is willing to pay more for what they want than just watching a few ads. At that point, audience numbers will matter less than audience intensity (I'm not sure what the right word for this is, but you see what I mean.)

Series like DS9 - with intensity rather than numbers - are the wave of the future for TV. Just look at the huge proportion of new fall series that are sci fi oriented. The other wave is for the mass market stuff to get increasingly lowbrow and idiotic. TV is bifurcating into two completely different beasts.
 
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Despite their similarities to one another, the two shows are fundamentally different.
They absolutely are. Of all the spinoff series, DS9 is the one that's most like TOS once you ignore all the surface elements and actually take a look at what those series were about.

TNG is about as different as you could get and still call it Star Trek. Which is why nobody is trying to recapture the spirit of TNG (snore). It's TOS they're recapturing, and that is timeless enough that it could be perfectly timely today.

I don't care that much if DS9 is ever revived in terms of location, characters, time period, etc. If Abrams is successful at recapturing TOS and changing some surface attributes to make it more appealing to modern audiences, he is going to be reviving DS9, or at least what I loved about it.
TOS and TNG were/are popular and successful entertainment phenomenons.

DS9 was never/isn't. Outside of a fringe group, few watch or care about DS9.

VGR and ENT never came close to the spirit or the quality of TOS/TNG--because they didn't have a guiding vision except to make UPN successful.

I think the discussion cannot be made more simple and clear than that.
Sorry, there is a crucial complicating factor that you're ignoring: the dramatic balkanization of the entertainment audience over the last 15 to 20 years. No Star Trek series will ever get the ratings TNG did because series don't get ratings like that anymore. All genres of TV are down in the ratings because there are 300 channels, video games, the internet, DVDs, etc now. The sliding ratings have nothing to do with quality (obviously, since DS9 was the best series) and everything to do with trends in the TV business.

And you're also forgetting that TOS was cancelled for poor ratings in its third season. That makes it the least successful Star Trek series of all time. Even ENT made it through four. ;)

Star Trek can certainly survive on TV again, but not with TNG style ratings. Fortunately there are many sci fi series that do just fine without that level of ratings. Since ratings are down for everything, what constitutes a "hit series" has also settled to a lower level. Increasingly, DVD sales and paid downloads will make up the difference, which is a trend that will be good for "niche" series that cater to a smaller audience, but a more loyal one that is willing to pay more for what they want than just watching a few ads. At that point, audience numbers will matter less than audience intensity (I'm not sure what the right word for this is, but you see what I mean.)

Series like DS9 - with intensity rather than numbers - are the wave of the future for TV. Just look at the huge proportion of new fall series that are sci fi oriented. The other wave is for the mass market stuff to get increasingly lowbrow and idiotic. TV is bifurcating into two completely different beasts.

TNG S1 and to a less extent S3 and some of S2 WAS TOS lite

everyhting after that kept moving away from TOS

DS9 had some good stories, espcially early on but its was not close to TOS on many levels
 
Beh, TOS was only TOS for 2 seasons anyways. S3 wasn't that good.

Anyways, Trek shouldn't have to keep trying to make a new TOS. Each show should just try to be good TV that we can accept it on its own merits and not keep comparing it to a past show. The Premises for DS9 and VOY made them different enough that we wouldn't have to compare to TOS (well, if UPN hadn't f***ed up VOY we would...).
 
TOS - Gene Roddenberry's old vision

TNG - Gene Roddenberry's new and "improved" vision

DS9 seasons 1-3 - Rick Berman carrying on Gene's new vision
seasons 4-7 - Ira Steven Behr doing his version that resembles Gene's old more than his new one.

VOY - Rick Berman carrying on Gene's new vision

ENT seasons 1-3 - Rick Berman carrying on Gene's new vision
season 4 - Manny Coto doing his version that resembles Gene's old one.
 
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