Trying to figure out the Federation Economy

[Penta]

Okay.

The "Starfleet at Quark's" thread, plus some other sci-fi, has me thinking.

This might be dangerous. Frankly, I start this htread terrified it'll devolve into a flame-war, which would be sad, because I think there's a lot of worldbuilding we could do here.

Like my other worldbuilding articles, []'s indicate margin notes.
---

Basic Assumptions

These are sometimes points just as debateable as anything else I might right, but in describing my model of the UFP economy, I feel a need to lay out some basic working assumptions so nobody's left scratching their heads too much. (There'll be plenty of time for that later.)

1. Money, in some form, still exists and is used within the UFP: Pretty essential. Debatable point, because canon contradicts itself here as much as it reaffirms one way or the other, but if one is going to describe the economy in any detail, you pretty much have to decide one way or the other.
2. There is private enterprise: We see all sorts of commercial traffic in Trek, from freighters to even the odd space liner if I recall correctly. There are mining settlements and the like, and farming colonies. Mining especially is something you would not ordinarily do just for the hell of it. As RL demonstrates, it's got an inherent danger factor.
3. That said, poverty and hunger (on a societal scale) have been eliminated: Possible with points 1 or 2. How will be explained.

The Fundamentals

Okay, first and foremost: The Federation does use money. It's not a physical currency, but the Federation credit is currency of a sort. The key is that it's all electronic, tracked (to a degree), and centrally managed.

Within the Federation Department of Commerce (or perhaps independent of it) is the Federation Reserve Bank - a classic "central bank". All Federation credits are issued, in the first step, by the FRB.

After this, credits are distributed to banks in the UFP (The Bank of Bolius, etc) who are registered with the FRB, and from there circulate in the economy.

Key point: The Federation credit is a fiat currency. It has no store of value like gold or latinum or silver - it has value because the Federation Government says it does. This is why a lot of traders who regularly do business outside of the UFP won't accept Federation credits - what the UFP gives, the UFP can take.

How a transaction works in this system:

A goes up to B and asks to buy a widget. Haggling ensues, or a fixed price is used, depends on the merchant and what they're selling. (The Statute of Frauds, for legal geeks, still exists and still means some tranasctions have to be done in writing, but we'll presume this isn't one of those.)

A and B agree on a price. And now here's where a key point comes in:

Everybody takes out their PADDs, or similar computer-they=carry-around. Through some mechanism, the PADDs (or whatever) link up. Money is deducted from A's PADD and credited to B's account. (This could be a physical linkup, it could be by IP or whatever...How the computers link up isn't important.)

No transaction, however, becomes effective until both parties have linked up with their respective bank. This can happen automatically, and usually does for transactions up to a preset value. Past that preset value (often fairly high), you have to make a datalink to your bank and confirm both your identity and the transaction. Fail to make the connection within a set time period (typically 24 hours) and it's as if it never happened.

The Basic Living Stipend

The Basic Living Stipend, or "the dole" in human parlance, is what makes it possible for Picard to say with a straight face that there isn't poverty in the UFP. Strictly put, there...shouldn't be.

[Note the hesitation. I'll explain in a bit.]

The BLS is exactly what it sounds like: Very ample provision of basic goods and services (plus some credits). Every Federation citizen is eligible for it by right of citizenship.

However.

The BLS is exactly what the name says it is: Basic. You can get what the public replicators provide, but the quality of what the public replicators provide is nothing to write home about.

You'll get food, but it's very basic food. It's nutritious, but it's designed to be easily accepted and easy to replicate.

You'll get clothes, but they'll be dull. Custom fitting and style still costs money, after all.

You'll get housing - but don't expect a single-family home. Apartments are generally it.

All that said, the BLS isn't bad. The quality of what you get is nothing to write home about, but it isn't bad.

Here's the thing, though: When you're on the BLS, it's known. It's noticed. Payments to vendors don't come from you, they come from the planetary government.

There isn't too much of a stigma to being on the BLS, because everybody's probably been on it at least once. But it's not something that's aspired to. People who are on the BLS? It's like being on unemployment is today - it's not generally looked up to. Most people on the BLS would like nothing more than to be *off* the BLS.

Also: What you get depends on what's available. Replicators take power, and power can sometimes be scarce, especially on colony worlds. What can't be replicated is provided in bulk - and that means there's sometimes shortages, or the quality has been sacrificed for the sheer quantity needed.

The core worlds of the UFP don't have many of those issues. Colony worlds do, though.

[And if by chance shipments don't get through to a colony...Turkana IV probably didn't fail out of nowhere, after all.]

State intervention

The Federation may best be described as a very mixed economy.

On the one hand, the Federation (or the Member States) own many of the means of production - planetary governments provide all utilities, for example, and there's a Federation Merchant Marine that provides essential shipping capacity.

On the other, there's a vibrant private sector. It's heavily regulated, but it's gigantic in and of itself.

[Without going into too much detail, it's best to compare the UFP's economics to the Nordic countries in real life. There's private industry, and it can get pretty big, but the most critical industries are likely state-owned.]

What can't be handled by the Federation or the Member States is handled by private industry. This can be quite a lot, actually - The Federation Merchant Marine only works to keep essential trade and supply routes going, and couldn't hope to provide all the shipping capaicty needed between planets. So they don't. They ship only essential supplies, generally, leaving most other things to private shipping firms.

In addition, there are some things that government is horrible at doing, and the UFP realizes this. They generally don't get involved in heavy industry (outside of defense industries like shipbuilding), for example, leaving much of that to private indsutry - the government may be the largest customer, but they're far from the only one.

---
Could write more. Much more. But I'm sleepy.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

the Federation Economy

1. Money, in some form, still exists and is used within the UFP: Pretty essential.

several key quotes from Memory Alpha showing the contradictions:

Money in the 21st century sense was not used on 24th century Earth.

Money also continued to be used on many other alien worlds, and for certain limited purposes in the Federation itself, especially when dealing with non-Federation members.

As expected.

while money had not entirely ceased to exist, it did not play the central role in the lives of Federation and Earth citizens that it once did

As expected based on what Roddenberry wanted:

Ronald D. Moore commented:

"By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that."

(AOL chat, 1997)

which contradicts what canon episodes mention:

The Federation credit is the monetary unit of the United Federation of Planets. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles"; TAS: "Mudd's Passion"; TNG: "The Price", TOS: "Errand of Mercy",DS9: "Body Parts", DS9 "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"; VOY: "Caretaker")

2 types of units with value are mentioned: One
Federation credit
The other is mention of "transporter credits." though.

Transporter credits are a rationed unit of exchange that allows for use of transporters on Earth in the 24th century. They are used at Starfleet Academy. It is not known if they are used elsewhere on Earth. [DS9: "Explorers"]

also see:
The Economy of the Federation
The question how the economy of the Federation works and particularly whether there is money or some sort of comparable currency in the Federation is very controversial and the evidence is very contradictory.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/economy.htm

I like the idea of credits. It is human nature that Greed is one of the 7 deadly sins. Some people will do anything to aquire 'wealth' which is the end result of greed.

How does the average Joe-six-pack in 2010 think of credits as currency?
The most successful type of digital money/virtual currency has always been frequent flier miles. Done.

similar to Transporter Credits being

a rationed unit of exchange

The 'Basic Living Stipend' as Penta calls it is really just welfare rations for every citizen. One would have to ask how does the UFP get their bank to give out the stipends? Surely they don't replicate money to trade other non-Federation members for good or raw materials...

See this article in this Winter's Wired magazine:
The Future of Money: It’s Flexible, Frictionless and (Almost) Free

 

[Rush Limborg]

I must congratulate Penta. You're really on to something.

Now...I'd say there's a significant difference between the Basic Living Stipend and the Welfare system as we'd know it.

Welfare is, quite simply, taxpayer dollars given to the unemployes, the poor, etc, as Temporary Assistance For Needy Families (TANF). Cash is taken from one group and given to another. (As many of you may remember, I recently had a big Clash-Of-The-Titans with Sci and others over the morality of this.)

However, in the Trek Universe, it must be pointed out that, with replicator technology, there isn't a real analogy to Welfare. With materials, food, etc., being replicated, there is no re-distribution model. The UFP Federal and World governments already have the replicators. It only requires certain amounts of energy to keep them running. And energy cannot be "taxed" away from others. Surely the governments have moters of their own.

And, as these public replicators would be public goods--i.e., goods and services which benefit everyone, regardless of where they are on the economic ladder. Everyone can go to a public replicator, paying the proper credits. Not everyone can get unemployment benefits today.

Now...of course there is the question of where the people get their Basic Living Stipend. Is there a taxation system? If so, than there is a sort of redistribution. The alternative, of course, is simply the printing of credits to provide to those on the BLS--which runs the risk of inflation.

And...the BLS, I imagine, would not apply to replicators, for the reasons I've stated. Replicator foods are free! However, I would also say that the public replicators have rations, so as to prevent any draining of the energy supply. Perhaps a census helps determine the energy needed for the system, as well as the amount of the ration. Also, it's rather a given that renewable energy systems would be a standard in the UFP, so it's not like the replicators woud be financed that much by taxpayers. Perhaps it's need credits to maintain the systems, but that's probably go to private engineering firms.

But the point is, food and other replicate-able materials would not require credits.

The BLS would apply to housing--and possibly clothing, but I'm not convinced that clothes wouldn't be replicated, too. Anyhow...I would say that, though the Federation Department of Housing requires funds to construct the housing, my guess is that those families who reside in the public housing are required to maintain their apartments--keep them clean and strong, and so on--as compensation for residence.

It's quite probable that each Member World would have tachnical control over the process of funding their respective housing projects--and that they simply answer to the DOH, following certain safetly and health guidelines.

Now, again...is the funding for housing construction undergone through taxation, or the "printing" of credits? Where does the "money" come from?


Now on the subject of regulation:

I don't have to tell everyone how skeptical I am of having the private sector heavily regulated by the government. Nonetheless, there is credence for certain regulations to a point.

To wit: There must be a strong anti-crime policy--i.e., business must not conduct practices that result directly in physical injury and/or death of the workers (or anyone else), or engage in theft and/or fraud. Those business which engage in such truly criminal activities should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Nonetheless, aside from that, surely a government is not as effective for keeping a company "in check" as the laws of supply and demand. Simple logic dictates that politicians with no business experience therefore are not as capable of running business as actual business owners are. Thus, "regulation" must be wholly defined--and defined in such a way so as not to force businesses to work against standards of economic sense.

In short, there must be severe checks and limits on the extent of what the government can regulate. After all, extreme regulation and oversight of a (theoretically) private sector is, quite simply, fascism (by that, I mean more along the lines of Mussolini's Italy, not neccesarily Hitler's Germany--no racism, per se, just fascism). To wit: "Power tends to corrupt..."

 

[jefferiestubes8]

the Federation Economy

Now, again...is the funding for housing construction undergone through taxation, or the "printing" of credits? Where does the "money" come from?

I already asked that...

One would have to ask how does the UFP get their bank to give out the stipends? Surely they don't replicate money to trade other non-Federation members for good or raw materials...

I can see that is going to be a major point of controversy...where an economy's money comes from.

The very idea of a physical currency is old.
Many years from now physical currency will not be printed paper or minted coins.
In the future digital money or virtual currency in the form of Federation Credits brings up all sorts of virtual economies and virtual currencies in modern society (and virtual worlds along with fraud & Mafia-style extortion (a demand for the protection of property) which is already happening and goes to show you how human nature even a virtual world will show off.).
A persistent virtual world (PVW) is a simulated online environment. Second Life is probably the best known example of a PVW.

In January 2010 South Korea ruled that virtual money is the equivalent of real-world money.

Jan. 2010 Swedish government to open Mind Bank, which will exchange Swedish kronor for PEDs [Project Entropia Dollar (PED) Once Mind Bank opens in January, users will be able to link real-world checking and savings accounts to the virtual world.]

That are already being played out in such things as Facebook Credits via Buxter, Nokia-backed Obopay, Linden dollars, Second Life's virtual currency

 

[T'Girl]

What can't be handled by the Federation or the Member States is handled by private industry.

Maybe the other way around would be better. The Federation and Member States step in only when the private sector can't, or in some cases won't, provide a service. For instance, the Federation Merchant Marine would have almost no use in the older core sections of the Federation, the big corporate carriers and the indeperndant single-ship outfits would have that covered. The Federation Merchant Marine would operate supply routes out on the frontier, where the newer members are located or where colonies have recently been established. After new routes have been laid down, private concerns would move in, competing with Merchant Marine, and eventually replacing them.

Having the Federation and Member States in the back-up position instead of taking the lead position would provide certain advantages.

1) It would drive the interstellar economy. While there would still be public utilities where no private exists, I forsee a future where a individual has the option of choosing between the government/public source of power-water- waste collection, and a private contractor for the same services. In some cases the government option would be the best or only real possibility, in others the private sector companies can react more quickly to challenges and possibilities to under cut the government in cost, speed and reliability. This wouldn't so much be competing with the government, as freeing up the government to turn it's attention elsewhere where it would be needed more.

2) The role of the state would be limited. If private industry is taking care of something, that means the Federation doesn't have too. The decision of what to produce, for whom to produce and in what quantities is taken by the market forces and not determined by the state, eliminating the necessity for yet another bureau and allows the Federation government to be smaller.

3) Fosters inner-Federation peace. By avoiding any monopolistic or oligopolistic influences member world governments would be less likely to be in direct competition with each others (and the Federation) to provide access to services.

4) Benefits the Federation and Member States governments by creating a larger tax field. Because they provide fewer services and have a huge private market place because of it, the various governments (Fed and member) can pull less taxes from each possible tax source, which makes the general public and the non-public businesses very happy.

5) Drive forward interstellar exploration. One of the secondary results of Starfleet's explorations is the discovery of new resources, new medical discoveries, new markets and new business possibilities. Rather than bemoan the fantastic cost of Starfleet's yearly operating budget, the populace of the member world would encourage their governments to increase the budget with every new discovery that make it way into the public consciousness.
---
And before you know who jumps on my shapely ass, I'm not suggesting a complete open market. There would be a modest number of well conceived regulations. Covering, safety, health, ethics, trade, fraud, securities and exchange, civilian version of the prime directive, etc.
---

Within the Federation Department of Commerce (or perhaps independent of it) is the Federation Reserve Bank - a classic "central bank". All Federation credits are issued, in the first step, by the FRB.

One of the most important things the brand new Federation would have done is set up a interstellar bank. To facilitate trade between members and the members differing money systems. I think this would have been the origins of "The Credit," creating a new currency out of whole cloth, instead of using something like the "Earth Real" or the "Andoria Actual" as the Federation's money and making all the members unite with that worlds money supply and any fluctuation that might come with it.

Starfleet gets paid in credits.

I believe that each member world be able to maintain their own "internal" money if they choose too. But I get the feeling that in this case the idea of a central, very very secure, money type would catch on very quickly. In a cash-less society trading from your worlds old money to the Federation's new money would just be a few lines of code somewhere.

And while I am a advocate of the cash-less society, I believe "paper" currency and coinage will still find some limited use in the Federation and the member worlds economies. It symbolically provide for the "recordless exchange," not that you're doing anything illegal of course. It makes possible the buying of goods without the semi-sexual necessity of pushing my padd up against yours. If for no other reason, it reminds the Federation with every exchange that the Federation isn't the master ...
...the Federation is the servant.
----

The "Earth Real" (i.e. real money)

as in ... McCoy: "I'd give real money if he'd shut-up."

 

[Cheapjack]

Very interesting, but very 21stCentury.

There are some oil states today, some small islands,that have discovered oil and the whole country is given the proceeds, even the bum on the corner, because living there and being human is qualification enough. I do take your point about minimum living standards, but I don't think you would just get the clothes you stand up in and food, as you do in America today. Even in America today, you can get foreign food, food you would never have got in the 18thC. You could have crab, if you wanted to.

The main currency would be knowledge, going on what Picard has said. People would be dilettantes, artists, pursuers of enlightment. That wouldn't suit all, I know. some people are lazy, some people are pig ignorant. I think these people would be looked down on, as they are today. People would be looking for something to do to make a difference, to be remembered, even if it is just by their local community. Most people will be just plain average, but the bar will have risen.

I do concede, that if you got there, in a time machine, from our world, the novelty would wear off after a few months. You'd still get old and still get up in the morning and see the lines under your eyes. There'sd be people doing things you couldn't do and parties you wouldn't get invited to and people you couldn't sleep with, in a million years.

I don't think there would be banks, as we have them. You would just have an account, based on your DNA.

 

[indolover]

my best guess re the UFP economy is that the writers never gave it much conscious thought, in all five TV series and all 11 films. They probably didn't really care, since the purpose of Trek is not to show future economic systems, theories or schools of thought. Most of them probably majored in English, and hardly would got MScs/PhDs in Econ.

I think it's possible that by the 24th century, Earth had reached a technological level that allowed a different economic system. In a way, it's kind of how persons living in medieval Europe would see our modern market economy. they had feudalism, and some aspects of supply/demand mechanics, but they could not foresee or imagine a capitalist economy as we have today.

Another point is that it is a conscious ploy by the writers, since it ties in to how humanity is different in the 24th century.

 

[Penta]

Indolover: I know that. The writers wouldn't be expected to care - some things just aren't relevant to episodes.

But this is a worldbuilding thread. As I've noted in other threads, my background comes from RPGs, where questions like this do get asked. You rarely get answers to all of your worldbuilding questions in any RPG, but with Trek (and Trek RPGs), you've tended not to get answers to even basic questions.

The whole point of worldbuilding threads, as I see them, is to go beyond what the writers said: To solve the contradictions, or try to - and figure out how the world created might work.

 

[Cheapjack]

my best guess re the UFP economy is that the writers never gave it much conscious thought, in all five TV series and all 11 films. They probably didn't really care, since the purpose of Trek is not to show future economic systems, theories or schools of thought. Most of them probably majored in English, and hardly would got MScs/PhDs in Econ.

I think it's possible that by the 24th century, Earth had reached a technological level that allowed a different economic system. In a way, it's kind of how persons living in medieval Europe would see our modern market economy. they had feudalism, and some aspects of supply/demand mechanics, but they could not foresee or imagine a capitalist economy as we have today.

Another point is that it is a conscious ploy by the writers, since it ties in to how humanity is different in the 24th century.

My God, you're not an alien visitor, are you? Like David Bowie, in 'The Man who fell To Earth.'???

Arrrest that man!!

 

[Cheapjack]

Indolover: I know that. The writers wouldn't be expected to care - some things just aren't relevant to episodes.

But this is a worldbuilding thread. As I've noted in other threads, my background comes from RPGs, where questions like this do get asked. You rarely get answers to all of your worldbuilding questions in any RPG, but with Trek (and Trek RPGs), you've tended not to get answers to even basic questions.

The whole point of worldbuilding threads, as I see them, is to go beyond what the writers said: To solve the contradictions, or try to - and figure out how the world created might work.

I have an o level in economics, but I think it will be as applicable to the 24th Century as a membership of a 14th Century trade guild would be to us- could you go on the 21st C stock market and even have a clue what you are doing? Would you lose a million, or make a million? It would be so fast, so quick. And a 20thC person would be flabbergasted, lost, in the 24thC.

Your ideas are very 20th/21stCentury America orientated, Penta. You're basically describing America, the way it is now, with replicators and Phasers and warp drive. It's very patriotic of you, but even I can imagine how my country will do things better, what can be improved. You keep going on about private sector versus public sector, too, and that is an obsession of the 20th/21stCentury west. I admit, you can't get a starship out of a replicator and someone will have to build them them and it will be a dangerous , expensive,well rewarded job. America will have changed a lot in 400 years - it will, very likely, have a very high standrad of living, if things go on the way they do. It may be more compassionate and eglitarian. We look after disabled people today, when we would have let them die 400 years ago, we would have said it was best for them, we give them $1000 dollar wheelchairs now.

I think that 24thC people will be very like us when it comes to dilitihium. It can't be replicated. They will put pressure on planets who have it to trade in it and will start wars based on the pretext of liberating people and will open up mining stations on those planets. at a reduced cost. Maybe they won't be as bad as us. Maybe not. They may be very ruthless with planets that have vaccines, Kirk was.

I appreciate you efforts. You've made me think.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, Cheapjack, though I understand your point about changing times, it is worth noting that, as history has proven time and time again, the freer the economy, the higher the standard of living. As of this year, Singapore and Hong Kong are the freest economies in the world. They are also the most prosperous.

Thus, in the 24th century, it is logical to conclude that the Federation has a highly free economy--albiet in a form somewhat different than any actual system we have ever established. Nonetheless, logic suggests that it is a 24th century counterpart of what we would today call free market capitalism.

(Mind you, not the "corporatism"/"crony capitalism" which the USA is currently engaging in--that is more akin to Ferenginar. Rather, the more truly free capitalism of Hong Kong and Singapore.)

To whit, as T'Girl suggests:

Maybe the other way around would be better. The Federation and Member States step in only when the private sector can't, or in some cases won't, provide a service. For instance, the Federation Merchant Marine would have almost no use in the older core sections of the Federation, the big corporate carriers and the indeperndant single-ship outfits would have that covered. The Federation Merchant Marine would operate supply routes out on the frontier, where the newer members are located or where colonies have recently been established. After new routes have been laid down, private concerns would move in, competing with Merchant Marine, and eventually replacing them.

Having the Federation and Member States in the back-up position instead of taking the lead position would provide certain advantages.

1) It would drive the interstellar economy. While there would still be public utilities where no private exists, I forsee a future where a individual has the option of choosing between the government/public source of power-water- waste collection, and a private contractor for the same services. In some cases the government option would be the best or only real possibility, in others the private sector companies can react more quickly to challenges and possibilities to under cut the government in cost, speed and reliability. This wouldn't so much be competing with the government, as freeing up the government to turn it's attention elsewhere where it would be needed more.

...And before you know who jumps on my shapely ass, I'm not suggesting a complete open market. There would be a modest number of well conceived regulations. Covering, safety, health, ethics, trade, fraud, securities and exchange, civilian version of the prime directive, etc.

Exactly. I am in favor of "public goods and services"--as Adam Smith defined them--i.e., goods and services which the public requires, but which cannot (not "should" not, can not) be made at a profit. A modern-day example would be the road system, the fire departments, and the like.

To be frank, a strong criminal justice system is a necessity--with a firm, uncompromising stand against fraud, and other actions which put an individual's life and/or property in danger. Nonetheless, it is illogical to have politicians which have had no experience in the management of businesses to attempt to usurp the authority of those business owners who do.

Safety guidelines are a given. However, the government should under no circumstances presume to run people's businesses for them. That is fascism.

2) The role of the state would be limited. If private industry is taking care of something, that means the Federation doesn't have too. The decision of what to produce, for whom to produce and in what quantities is taken by the market forces and not determined by the state, eliminating the necessity for yet another bureau and allows the Federation government to be smaller.

3) Fosters inner-Federation peace. By avoiding any monopolistic or oligopolistic influences member world governments would be less likely to be in direct competition with each others (and the Federation) to provide access to services.

4) Benefits the Federation and Member States governments by creating a larger tax field. Because they provide fewer services and have a huge private market place because of it, the various governments (Fed and member) can pull less taxes from each possible tax source, which makes the general public and the non-public businesses very happy.

5) Drive forward interstellar exploration. One of the secondary results of Starfleet's explorations is the discovery of new resources, new medical discoveries, new markets and new business possibilities. Rather than bemoan the fantastic cost of Starfleet's yearly operating budget, the populace of the member world would encourage their governments to increase the budget with every new discovery that make it way into the public consciousness.
---
...
---

Within the Federation Department of Commerce (or perhaps independent of it) is the Federation Reserve Bank - a classic "central bank". All Federation credits are issued, in the first step, by the FRB.

One of the most important things the brand new Federation would have done is set up a interstellar bank. To facilitate trade between members and the members differing money systems. I think this would have been the origins of "The Credit," creating a new currency out of whole cloth, instead of using something like the "Earth Real" or the "Andoria Actual" as the Federation's money and making all the members unite with that worlds money supply and any fluctuation that might come with it.

Starfleet gets paid in credits.

I believe that each member world be able to maintain their own "internal" money if they choose too. But I get the feeling that in this case the idea of a central, very very secure, money type would catch on very quickly. In a cash-less society trading from your worlds old money to the Federation's new money would just be a few lines of code somewhere.

And while I am a advocate of the cash-less society, I believe "paper" currency and coinage will still find some limited use in the Federation and the member worlds economies. It symbolically provide for the "recordless exchange," not that you're doing anything illegal of course. It makes possible the buying of goods without the semi-sexual necessity of pushing my padd up against yours. If for no other reason, it reminds the Federation with every exchange that the Federation isn't the master ...
...the Federation is the servant.

Brilliant thinking. Mega-dittos, lass.

 

[Arpy]

It's too late here to think too hard. I'm going to reserve comment for the time being at least but I want to say...

Cheapjack, kudos to you, sir.

 

[Cheapjack]

Well, Cheapjack, though I understand your point about changing times, it is worth noting that, as history has proven time and time again, the freer the economy, the higher the standard of living. As of this year, Singapore and Hong Kong are the freest economies in the world. They are also the most prosperous.

Thus, in the 24th century, it is logical to conclude that the Federation has a highly free economy--albiet in a form somewhat different than any actual system we have ever established. Nonetheless, logic suggests that it is a 24th century counterpart of what we would today call free market capitalism.

(Mind you, not the "corporatism"/"crony capitalism" which the USA is currently engaging in--that is more akin to Ferenginar. Rather, the more truly free capitalism of Hong Kong and Singapore.)

To whit, as T'Girl suggests:

Maybe the other way around would be better. The Federation and Member States step in only when the private sector can't, or in some cases won't, provide a service. For instance, the Federation Merchant Marine would have almost no use in the older core sections of the Federation, the big corporate carriers and the indeperndant single-ship outfits would have that covered. The Federation Merchant Marine would operate supply routes out on the frontier, where the newer members are located or where colonies have recently been established. After new routes have been laid down, private concerns would move in, competing with Merchant Marine, and eventually replacing them.

Having the Federation and Member States in the back-up position instead of taking the lead position would provide certain advantages.

1) It would drive the interstellar economy. While there would still be public utilities where no private exists, I forsee a future where a individual has the option of choosing between the government/public source of power-water- waste collection, and a private contractor for the same services. In some cases the government option would be the best or only real possibility, in others the private sector companies can react more quickly to challenges and possibilities to under cut the government in cost, speed and reliability. This wouldn't so much be competing with the government, as freeing up the government to turn it's attention elsewhere where it would be needed more.

...And before you know who jumps on my shapely ass, I'm not suggesting a complete open market. There would be a modest number of well conceived regulations. Covering, safety, health, ethics, trade, fraud, securities and exchange, civilian version of the prime directive, etc.

Exactly. I am in favor of "public goods and services"--as Adam Smith defined them--i.e., goods and services which the public requires, but which cannot (not "should" not, can not) be made at a profit. A modern-day example would be the road system, the fire departments, and the like.

To be frank, a strong criminal justice system is a necessity--with a firm, uncompromising stand against fraud, and other actions which put an individual's life and/or property in danger. Nonetheless, it is illogical to have politicians which have had no experience in the management of businesses to attempt to usurp the authority of those business owners who do.

Safety guidelines are a given. However, the government should under no circumstances presume to run people's businesses for them. That is fascism.

2) The role of the state would be limited. If private industry is taking care of something, that means the Federation doesn't have too. The decision of what to produce, for whom to produce and in what quantities is taken by the market forces and not determined by the state, eliminating the necessity for yet another bureau and allows the Federation government to be smaller.

3) Fosters inner-Federation peace. By avoiding any monopolistic or oligopolistic influences member world governments would be less likely to be in direct competition with each others (and the Federation) to provide access to services.

4) Benefits the Federation and Member States governments by creating a larger tax field. Because they provide fewer services and have a huge private market place because of it, the various governments (Fed and member) can pull less taxes from each possible tax source, which makes the general public and the non-public businesses very happy.

5) Drive forward interstellar exploration. One of the secondary results of Starfleet's explorations is the discovery of new resources, new medical discoveries, new markets and new business possibilities. Rather than bemoan the fantastic cost of Starfleet's yearly operating budget, the populace of the member world would encourage their governments to increase the budget with every new discovery that make it way into the public consciousness.
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...
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Within the Federation Department of Commerce (or perhaps independent of it) is the Federation Reserve Bank - a classic "central bank". All Federation credits are issued, in the first step, by the FRB.

One of the most important things the brand new Federation would have done is set up a interstellar bank. To facilitate trade between members and the members differing money systems. I think this would have been the origins of "The Credit," creating a new currency out of whole cloth, instead of using something like the "Earth Real" or the "Andoria Actual" as the Federation's money and making all the members unite with that worlds money supply and any fluctuation that might come with it.

Starfleet gets paid in credits.

I believe that each member world be able to maintain their own "internal" money if they choose too. But I get the feeling that in this case the idea of a central, very very secure, money type would catch on very quickly. In a cash-less society trading from your worlds old money to the Federation's new money would just be a few lines of code somewhere.

And while I am a advocate of the cash-less society, I believe "paper" currency and coinage will still find some limited use in the Federation and the member worlds economies. It symbolically provide for the "recordless exchange," not that you're doing anything illegal of course. It makes possible the buying of goods without the semi-sexual necessity of pushing my padd up against yours. If for no other reason, it reminds the Federation with every exchange that the Federation isn't the master ...
...the Federation is the servant.

Brilliant thinking. Mega-dittos, lass.

The Romans had a high standard of living, as did the egyptians and they had slavery. They weren't very free.The Romans lasted for hundreds of years, and effect us now. The Swedes, now, have a very high standard of living, as do the French and the Germans, and they have socialism, state intervention.

Your indoctrination is impressive, but you should take in a little more SF. Read the caves of steel by Asimov. They don't have money in that, just passes. Nor do they have private enterprise. Everyone is just an ant in a heap.

As has been stated in ST quite a few times, they have cheap fusion and replicators. This will change things the way steam and fire has. Some people, even the lower orders, will at first revolt, the way the luddites smashed machines up. Some cavemen wouldn't have been able to handle this new 'fire'thing. They would have noticed that it hurts if you stick your hand in it and can kill you. They would have ignored this new idea and started talking about soemthing else, the old ways.

I don't think that people will be arguing about state vs private 400 years from now. I don't think they will have banks, as we know them. and taxes will be gone,as they have relatively cheap power and can cater for everyone.

You all keep talking about our present economic system as if it is the pinnacle of human acheivement, as if there can be no other system, and that's dangerous talk, cos the only way to go from that is down. The Victorians went down, the Romans went down, the Nazis thought they were the pinnacle and look what happened to them. Borrow from history, learn from history, but adapt and steal from other cultures. and constantly look to improve, to do things that no-one has ver done before.

I think there will be vestiges of the mechanisms you have detailed, in the ST universe,but there will be others too on top. If I was writing for ST, I would use them as a starting point. It might not happen, cheap fusion may be impossible,replicators may be impossible, but I have a fairly good idea, that some people now are deliberately holding us back on our development of fusion and they will probably be the giants of the 24thC as they are now.

Evolution, not revolution! But, we're not there yet.

 

[Pavonis]

The Basic Living Stipend
...
The BLS is exactly what the name says it is: Basic. You can get what the public replicators provide, but the quality of what the public replicators provide is nothing to write home about.

You'll get food, but it's very basic food. It's nutritious, but it's designed to be easily accepted and easy to replicate.

You'll get clothes, but they'll be dull. Custom fitting and style still costs money, after all.

You'll get housing - but don't expect a single-family home. Apartments are generally it.

All that said, the BLS isn't bad. The quality of what you get is nothing to write home about, but it isn't bad.

Why do you assume that the "public" replicators must produce inferior products? Is it some kind of imposed software restriction, or are the replicators somehow of lower quality than any we've seen depicted anywhere? Frankly, I don't see why one replicator would be better or worse than another (unless it were malfunctioning), so I don't understand how one replicator, merely by being publicly available, could produce items that would be considered inferior to any other replicator.

As for housing, we've seen mostly apartments anyway. Other than Kirk's cabin in Idaho, and Picard's chateau in France, has any single-family dwelling been seen? Any residential neighborhoods at all (on Earth)?

 

[Penta]

Long experience with being a "client" of public assistance leads me to believe that, by comparison with the custom-tailored clothes and organic food and so forth a person might regularly get, what you get off public assistance will be very basic. Keep in mind, it takes real memory to make an item replicable. The Enterprise-D had a max of 4500 patterns the replicator could hold in storage. Plenty for a population of 1000, but probably not enough for a planet-scale population.

Also, the actual replicators - they're likley to be scattered all over a planet. As we've never seen robots used in Trek for maintenance tasks, that means you gotta have a person respond to every repair call, however generated. It may in fact be a few days between when your replicator breaks and when it works again.

Finally, I will admit something: If there wasn't a downside to being on assistance, nobody would get off it. They may have to manufacture a downside, but there's a systemic incentive for the government not to want everybody on assistance.

As social methods seem a bit creepy to me, it makes more sense that there be (possibly artificially-generated) inferiority to what one gets on the BLS. Not too much, but just enough to motivate people who would otherwise be free-riders into participating in the labor force and the like.

Edit:

So far as housing goes: We've rarely seen "civilian" housing anyway. I can think of 3 examples - Kirk's farm, Picard's chateau, and Harry Kim's apartment in an alternate reality.

We don't have enough to speculate from canon, so my guess would be that you ordinarily live in an apartment only if you can't afford better or when other circumstances necessitate it (For instance, Harry Kim was in Starfleet - maybe he didn't feel he'd be in one place long enough for a house to be worth it) - there's a bunch of reasons people gravitate, generally speaking, towards a single-family home if they can get it. It's not really just a Western conceit. People in Japan or Zimbabwer or wheever would do similar if they could pull it off.

There's also the point someone else brought up - maybe replicator use anywhere is monitored. People get creeped out by any individualized monitoring of habits, and yet that is exactly what any monitoring of replicator usage would likely entail. Yet more reason for "real things" to be favored.

 

[Cheapjack]

Long experience with being a "client" of public assistance leads me to believe that, by comparison with the custom-tailored clothes and organic food and so forth a person might regularly get, what you get off public assistance will be very basic. Keep in mind, it takes real memory to make an item replicable. The Enterprise-D had a max of 4500 patterns the replicator could hold in storage. Plenty for a population of 1000, but probably not enough for a planet-scale population.

Also, the actual replicators - they're likley to be scattered all over a planet. As we've never seen robots used in Trek for maintenance tasks, that means you gotta have a person respond to every repair call, however generated. It may in fact be a few days between when your replicator breaks and when it works again.

Finally, I will admit something: If there wasn't a downside to being on assistance, nobody would get off it. They may have to manufacture a downside, but there's a systemic incentive for the government not to want everybody on assistance.

As social methods seem a bit creepy to me, it makes more sense that there be (possibly artificially-generated) inferiority to what one gets on the BLS. Not too much, but just enough to motivate people who would otherwise be free-riders into participating in the labor force and the like.

What possible motivation to get more would there be, when you can synthesise anything, even a ball gown? And they don't have assistance, as I see it, in the 24thC. They're all given the same cos it's like running water or salt. Do you think that's creepy to give running water to people? Or would you deny it to some, to give them something to strive for? They don't HAVE a labour force. They have policemen and bureuacrats and doctors and you can do tasks but you aren't owned for 40 hours a week, you do it for the fun of it! Out of sense of 'responsibility', duty and cos it makes you feel better.

You keep thinking it's like 21st Century America. It's not. Even the most hardened millionaire, and there has been one in TNG, would love it. The possibilities are endless, if you want to contribute and even if you don't, say go stuff it. HE got used to the idea. HE adapted. He loved it. He spoke the lingo quickly. It only took him 47 minutes! So did harry mud!I've been here for hours and got nowhere with you.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Two types of money, work/energy credit, and aspirational credit.

Since everything boils down to energy, and with the replicator, manufacture comes down to its most basic conversion directly from energy to required goods, that makes it easy for the Federation to divide energy produced by number of citizens and come up with a personal ration. The implication of 24th Century Trek is that energy is so abundant, that the personal ration by far exceeds what a person can possibly consume.

Also with that sort of abundance, acquisitiveness becomes pointless. Who would want a DVD collection when a central computer can supply all the video entertainment you would ever need. Same with books, music, and a whole host of other consumer goods. Why would you collect clothes when you would replicate what you would wear for the day, and then at the end of the day you'd recycle it and replicate a fresh outfit the next morning. By that token, people would need a whole lot less living space. You would only acquire things for sentiment, not for value.

But work has to be done, things created, bought and sold. If we assume that all menial work is automated, no one aspires to work in the sewage industry or sanitation any more. Work done is measured by energy in and energy out, how much time is spent, how many joules are put into creating a product, and that is all at a set rate governed by the Federation. The price of a handmade wooden chair would be the same throughout the Federation (not withstanding shipping and raw material costs).

The difference in price comes in the aspirational credit. Creators are allowed to charge for their personal skills and time in addition to the work credit. Someone who is very good at what they do will be recognised, and people will pay more.

But, with the energy abundancy implied in 24th Century Trek, that all means little, and is really a way to keep score, and to keep creators motivated. If they feel their work is of value, then they will keep working.

I think the real currency will be social status. With everyone practically financially equal, there is no reason why the lowliest of the low can't own the Mona Lisa, or live in the White House. But then, even more than now, what you do, what you accomplish will count more for what you have in the bank. So Starship Captains will rank higher on the social ladder than cafe owners, poltical leaders will rank higher than security guards, and porn stars will rank higher than lawyers.

 

[Cheapjack]

Two types of money, work/energy credit, and aspirational credit.

Since everything boils down to energy, and with the replicator, manufacture comes down to its most basic conversion directly from energy to required goods, that makes it easy for the Federation to divide energy produced by number of citizens and come up with a personal ration. The implication of 24th Century Trek is that energy is so abundant, that the personal ration by far exceeds what a person can possibly consume.

Also with that sort of abundance, acquisitiveness becomes pointless. Who would want a DVD collection when a central computer can supply all the video entertainment you would ever need. Same with books, music, and a whole host of other consumer goods. Why would you collect clothes when you would replicate what you would wear for the day, and then at the end of the day you'd recycle it and replicate a fresh outfit the next morning. By that token, people would need a whole lot less living space. You would only acquire things for sentiment, not for value.

But work has to be done, things created, bought and sold. If we assume that all menial work is automated, no one aspires to work in the sewage industry or sanitation any more. Work done is measured by energy in and energy out, how much time is spent, how many joules are put into creating a product, and that is all at a set rate governed by the Federation. The price of a handmade wooden chair would be the same throughout the Federation (not withstanding shipping and raw material costs).

The difference in price comes in the aspirational credit. Creators are allowed to charge for their personal skills and time in addition to the work credit. Someone who is very good at what they do will be recognised, and people will pay more.

But, with the energy abundancy implied in 24th Century Trek, that all means little, and is really a way to keep score, and to keep creators motivated. If they feel their work is of value, then they will keep working.

I think the real currency will be social status. With everyone practically financially equal, there is no reason why the lowliest of the low can't own the Mona Lisa, or live in the White House. But then, even more than now, what you do, what you accomplish will count more for what you have in the bank. So Starship Captains will rank higher on the social ladder than cafe owners, poltical leaders will rank higher than security guards, and porn stars will rank higher than lawyers.

i think we're getting somewhere. Better than Penta and TGirls miserable world. You've almostt hit the bulls eye.

Have two pieces of my orange! great, this world building! We could be running it!

 

[Pavonis]

...Keep in mind, it takes real memory to make an item replicable. The Enterprise-D had a max of 4500 patterns the replicator could hold in storage. Plenty for a population of 1000, but probably not enough for a planet-scale population.

How did you determine the 4500 pattern figure? I don't recall any mention in canon of the number of patterns stored in the replicator computer system, and a quick check of Memory Alpha turned up nothing on that figure. Is this a figure you made up? What are the rules for your world-building exercises?

Admittedly, storing patterns requires memory, but do we have any indication in canon that computer memory is so limited that only 4500 replicator patterns can be stored? Even on a starship, memory capacity of the computers should be quite large, and memory shouldn't be limited on a planet at all; a replicator doesn't have to hold all the patterns locally. As long as computer networks are available, memory for replicator patterns can be stored anywhere, retrieved and replicated at any location. Even public ones.

Also, the actual replicators - they're likley to be scattered all over a planet. As we've never seen robots used in Trek for maintenance tasks, that means you gotta have a person respond to every repair call, however generated. It may in fact be a few days between when your replicator breaks and when it works again.

We don't know anything about replicator distribution on any Federation planet, but if Earth is anything like Starfleet vessels, then perhaps replicators are available in every household, perhaps even every room of every home. As for replicator malfunctions, well, repairmen could be transported directly to the home immediately to repair the problem, or exchange the unit. We know from TNG "The Survivors" at least some replicators are portable units; perhaps all replicators are portable units. In that case a malfunctioning replicator could be switched out with a working unit. There's no reason to think that it would take days to fix a unit, and even if the repair did take days it's likely a loaner could be used in the meantime.

Finally, I will admit something: If there wasn't a downside to being on assistance, nobody would get off it. They may have to manufacture a downside, but there's a systemic incentive for the government not to want everybody on assistance.

As social methods seem a bit creepy to me, it makes more sense that there be (possibly artificially-generated) inferiority to what one gets on the BLS. Not too much, but just enough to motivate people who would otherwise be free-riders into participating in the labor force and the like.

So if public replicators have a software-imposed quality reduction, then what would the government's response be when a hacker removed those software limits? Maintain a cyber-security force to keep these artificial software limits in place? Or just give up and let the public replicators produce goods of equal quality to any other replicator? If the imposition is artificial and top-down, I don't see how it could be maintained indefinitely without a lot of unnecessary effort.

There's also the point someone else brought up - maybe replicator use anywhere is monitored. People get creeped out by any individualized monitoring of habits, and yet that is exactly what any monitoring of replicator usage would likely entail. Yet more reason for "real things" to be favored.

I don't think we know enough about 24th century human social mores to determine whether or not they'd care that their replicator usages would be public record. They may not care if the neighbors know what they ate for supper last week. Or that they replicated a Horgahn statue. On the other hand, those replicator records could be confidential.

 

[Penta]

The 4500 figure comes from the TNG technical manual, pg 153 ("...nearly 4,500 types of foods, which are stored in computer memory."), which I should have cited, I agree. By foods, I'm assuming they mean food, drinks, etc...Edible stuff. 4500 types of edible stuff, 4500 menu items. And the Galaxy class is mentioned as having a fairly large computer system, memory wise.

They don't say precisely how much memory a pattern takes up, I'll admit that. If they did, they'd express it in some form of quads, and trying to figure out how that computes is impossible.
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So far as hacking the public replicators - that would be hacking government property, and I imagine it would be responded to much like it would be today if you hacked the water system. A cyber-security force would seem de rigeur for any governmental computter system, yes.

(I should stop here and mention something. Trek has always been odd in its representation of computer networks. We didn't see email make an appearance until ST XI in the alternate reality, after all. Given the more "physical" nature of computer systems in the TNG era, I'm left wondering precisely how one would hack a computer anyway. I presume it's possible, but don't ask me how. Similarly, it's quite possible that public replicators work off a common pattern network, but private replicators don't access, and instead work off the home (or whatever) network. So instead of buying recipes or cookbooks, you'd buy replicator patterns.)

You're right: We don't know enough about human social mores in the 24th century to guess accurately, so I did the only thing that seemed plausible - extrapolated forward from today. People have a weirdly contradictory relationship with personal privacy, but they do seem to value it.