Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

[Kemaiku]

I have three avatars in Myst Online, two male and one female. The physics and controls of both are different, female avatars are commonly used by males to exploit flaws in the game to explore other areas we technically shouldn't be, Uru is an explorer RPG that's been abandoned really, large areas under construction back in the day can be accessed by random "exploit jumps".

These avatars, both male and female, wear heavy explorer gear and can be hard to tell the gender of, not exactly even all that human looking at times. When I 'wear' the male one to play normally no one notices, when I 'wear' the female one, wham, messages, people running over, just getting in my way and annoying me.

I tend to only use it at low population times when the city is mostly empty, or stick to the personal 'instances' of the areas, only buddies in the game know that it's my avatar.

It's so bad at times a lot of the female players have a male avatar just for playing so they don't get harrassed every single time they play the game.

 

[Jeyl]

Well, I'm a guy who likes to play female characters on RPGs and MMOs. I'm not trying to disguise myself as female or say that I prefer to look at a girl's rear more than a guy's rear. I just find female characters more interesting.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for the day when Star Trek can feature a crew that has more women than men, even on a 4-3 scale.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's so bad at times a lot of the female players have a male avatar just for playing so they don't get harrassed every single time they play the game.

Exactly why I play male characters on STO. And I sure as hell would never play a female KDF character. That would be even more likely to garner harassment.

Granted, I have not played a female avatar on STO. But I'd heard how such things could be in other games, so I decided to bypass that whole mess.

(Plus, I have a ton of male fanfic characters to choose from, so it wasn't like it was that hard to create an avatar I would like playing. )

It really is a shame things are like that. It should not be that way.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I play both male and female characters in MMOs, like STO and Champions Online. This gives me variety and also opportunity to create different backgrounds stories..plus I happen to like female superheroes.

Yep...that kind of plays into one of my guesses about some guys who play "respectfully" with female characters: role-players, who put a lot of thought and detail into backstories.

Playing female toon does sometimes give a small glimpse to me of what some female players must endure from some of the male players.
Once I was in Champions with my female hero and one other player started making some remarks about her breasts, in a not so polite manner. Since my toon has fire related powers, I basically told him that I would "burn his nuts" if he would not behave..

I hope he figured out he was messing with a guy and was sufficiently mortified.



But wow...that's pretty bad, that happened to you. Makes me damn glad about my avatar choices in STO.

 

[Kemaiku]

One handy thing about Uru is that because of the nature of the game, each player has the ability to wisk themselves away to their own personal home area at will that no one else has access to, it's part of the mechanics of the original game but has more recently acted like a convenient panic button for harrassed members.

Unfortunately this won't stop messages being delivered, but the ignore function will. But nearly every female member of the community has been followed, sent lewd messages, been harrased etc and it's rather depressing since the Myst franchise has a much larger female fandom than male.

 

[stonester1]

It's also worth saying, I think, that your attempts to dismiss me as not knowing much about games is sort of silly considering my current line of work.

A few things...why would I know anything about your current line of work? You and I have never communicated on a personal level, and you are also assuming that I care.

Also, I never said you don't know anything about games. What we are disagreeing about is the "politics" and "culture" of gaming. And how to approach it.

I'm going to assume we can do that without being disagreeable.

Can we?

Now, my personal tastes are and will always be about the story, and are the characters well portrayed within the context of the game. I don't like most shooters, as mindless carnage is not my thing. I love sexy, but it's got to fit the context. Obvious prurient pandering with nothing narrative or clever to support it, generaly turns me off.

But I'm also not interested in satisfying anyone's political agendas, either.

My point is there is and always will be trashy stuff in all media. Why? Because it sells. There will always be sexual content of some kind, and that's perfectly ok. People should be able to choose. Embarrassing, insulting or distasteful tropes aren't limited to how women are portrayed in some games. IMO, gratuitous violence is a much bigger deal that Lara Croft's dimensions.

Heck, it's my opinion that the fact that the internet allows too many people to be douchebags hiding behind an electronic mask is a much bigger deal that Lara Croft's dimensions, if we are going to talk about computer age problems.

But that's my thing. And I buy accordingly. As should we all, according to what suits you.

 

[stonester1]

I don't see it necessarily as a problem. I would if Lara Croft were also depicted as weak, helpless or an accessory to male adventurers. But she is none of the above. I've no problem with bombshell Lara, as some women ARE built like that.

You're kidding, right? Have you actually SEEN a woman in real life who looks like this?

Granted, the latest versions of her are approaching something that looks like a believable woman, but the earlier versions of her are completely unrealistic.

What I meant by that is that there are lots of leggy, busty, athletic women out there.

Yes...the fact that there are no women who look like a literal translation of what amounts to be a cartoon character in an over the top adventure in no way intended to approximate real life...is a problem.

'K.

 

[Tiberius]

And that's the key. "In no way intended to approximate real life." They're deliberately sexually-enhanced so as to portray a sexualised image instead of a genuine image.

Now, I have no problem with making human characters in games as slightly unrealistic. But when the vast majority of female characters have all their sexual attributes enhanced, I don't think that it's giving a proper view of things.

 

[captcalhoun]

COD is not mindless violence. it's violence with an objective. and, in SP, an actual plot.

 

[stonester1]

And that's the key. "In no way intended to approximate real life." They're deliberately sexually-enhanced so as to portray a sexualised image instead of a genuine image.

Now, I have no problem with making human characters in games as slightly unrealistic. But when the vast majority of female characters have all their sexual attributes enhanced, I don't think that it's giving a proper view of things.

Wait...videogames are under some kind of obligation to represent "reality", in a way that no other medium is?

Proper?

Says who? This just comes down to the fact that YOU, and some others, DON'T LIKE IT.

That's it.

Game producers are under no obligation to cater to your tastes. Just as you are under no obligation to purchase their product.

That's where "proper" ends. We can engage in a discussion about aesthetics...but that all becomes a discourse about taste and opinion. And that has been going around since art and media existed.

Your best bet is voting with your dollars and time. You won't shame people into not liking cartoon tits.

 

[stonester1]

COD is not mindless violence. it's violence with an objective. and, in SP, an actual plot.

I don't agree that violence with an "objective" necessarily makes it ok.

MY OPINION, is that violence without a sense of consequences, on the victor as well as the vanquished, without a sense of cost, and perhaps even more interesting, in storytelling, a more creative set of solutions and outcomes that can be produced, is not a good thing.

I know that it's not my thing.

That's why I don't play them.

It's not my thing. But I'm not going to treat you to a lecture about how you shouldn't do it. If you are a well adjusted human being who otherwise has a healthy perspective on real violence, then hey, that's your thing.

It's not my thing. And I don't think that such an approach to violence is not necessarily the healtheist thing. But then, neither is junk food. But, in moderation, such won't harm you.

So...I vote with my dollars. Give my opinion where it's relevant, and that's that.

 

[Arrqh]

Also, I never said you don't know anything about games. What we are disagreeing about is the "politics" and "culture" of gaming. And how to approach it.

No, that is exactly what you said. Here's the quote:

If you really don't think there are lots of games showing buff, muscular, athletic men in ways that make it clear they are...gotta wonder just how much about the gaming field you are famililalr with.

You set up a strawman argument (I never said that men in games aren't athletic, nor is that relevant) and then used it to claim that I'm not as familiar with the gaming field as you with the implication that this invalidated my opinion. If that is not what you meant, feel free to retract it but please don't pretend you never said it. That's unhelpful and disingenuous and most certainly doesn't go in line with you not wanting to be "disagreeable."

Now, my personal tastes are and will always be about the story...

Your tastes are irrelevant to this conversation. We are not talking about personal tastes. We are talking about the objectification of women in games.

My point is there is and always will be trashy stuff in all media. Why? Because it sells. There will always be sexual content of some kind, and that's perfectly ok. People should be able to choose. Embarrassing, insulting or distasteful tropes aren't limited to how women are portrayed in some games. IMO, gratuitous violence is a much bigger deal that Lara Croft's dimensions.

And once again, you have missed the entire point of my argument. I'm not going to reiterate it for you a third time, but if you'd like to reread it and actually discuss the issues at hand instead of generating strawmen arguments, I would be more then happy to continue this discussion. Being "agreeable" is more than just polite words; if you keep ignoring the actual points that I and others have made then we're not having an actual conversation.

Either you can learn what people are actually arguing or you can not. The choice is yours! But sexism and objectification of women is not about tastes or aesthetics. It is about context... and it is always wrong. And the systemic nature of this problem across nearly all of mainstream gaming makes "vote with your wallet" literally useless and ultimately dismissive.

 

[stonester1]

You set up a strawman argument (I never said that men in games aren't athletic, nor is that relevant) and then used it to claim that I'm not as familiar with the gaming field as you with the implication that this invalidated my opinion.

And if you missed/disregarded my use of the qualifier "if", which apparently you did, you would have a point, if that "if" was not there. It was. I had no idea how you personally felt about the issue.

But it is DEFINITELY relevant. If one is going to complain about the physicality of women and how it is depicted in games, one must compare it to how men are portrayed and how one is ok and the other is not. So far, I've yet to hear anything convincing.

Or not idealogically/politcally self serving.

Your tastes are irrelevant to this conversation. We are not talking about personal tastes. We are talking about the objectification of women in games.

No, we are talking about tastes. Just because you choose to think of it as objectification does not make it so in objective reality.

And once again, you have missed the entire point of my argument.

To dismiss is not to miss.

Either you can learn what people are actually arguing or you can not.

I already have. You are reiterating how you are talking about objectification and how I'm somehow missing the point. I am repeating that I got the point and disagree that you have one and have presented my reasons why.

And your repeating yourself and saying that I have missed your point when I haven't does not somehow strengthen your case.

But whatever.

But sexism and objectification of women is not about tastes or aesthetics. It is about context... and it is always wrong. And the systemic nature of this problem across nearly all of mainstream gaming makes "vote with your wallet" literally useless and ultimately dismissive.

Yes, but just because YOU call something "objectification" doesn't automatically make it so. And just because it is "objectification" doesn't automatically make it wrong, as has been pointed out, trash culture is not necessarily wrong. Now, PURE objectification, you might have me on board with. But what those who pursue this are willing to label "objectification", I don't find myself falling in line with. I insist on making up my own mind about it.

Further, again, I note how the sex thing is raged about, yet the violence, which I think is a much bigger problem and legitimate issue, is left aside. Yes, I recognize that the violence issue has little relation to the project that spawned this thread. But again, as I said, overall, I don't think the issue is the big issue you, some of the posters or the originator of the project think it is. I think mindless violence in games is a far bigger problem with potentially more of a negative impact on our culture.

And if you don't have the strength of character to vote with your wallet, then you are part of your own percieved problem and certainly not the solution.

All the caterwauling about it won't change anything.

Sex will continue to sell.

If the game is any good, it will certainly get my dollars.

If you don't like it, I will still sleep ok at night, I guarantee.

As I said, I'm about good games, what I judge are good games, not anyone's political agenda. Left wing PC mavens, religious fundies, alla you, go take a hike.

Either way, I WILL stick with my principles and vote with my dollars. And if I hear someone howling about offensive conduct in a game...especially if it is sexy...I might have the natural reaction most will. I might take a peek to see what the big deal is.

Especially if it is actually a good game and double especially if it pisses the right people off.

Free advertising, can't beat it.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I guess it would be just fine to make games that promote insulting stereotypes about gays and black people, too. After all, people can just "vote with their dollars." If the public wants bigoted trash, give the public bigoted trash. Social responsibility? What's that?

If you don't think it's the exact same thing, then you're simply wrong. It is. It's not simply being unrealistic that's the issue, it's the promotion of negative stereotypes regarding a group that still struggles for equality under the law and in society. Women may be a bit farther ahead in that struggle than other groups, but they still must deal with a sexist culture that doesn't take their issues seriously. Overt sexism in video games is just given a pass. Do you think overt racism or homophobia would or should be?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I would say the most objective evidence, if that is what one seeks here, is Chemakkhu's anecdote about the extremely different reactions he received while playing a female avatar on an MMORPG, as opposed to playing a male one. If that kind of in-your-face, obvious sexism still occurs, and players feel "secure" in that they have a permissive environment to allow them to do so, then it should not be that far of a stretch to think that it is embedded into game design in more subtler ways as well.

 

[stonester1]

People will be dicks on the internet. Get rid of cleavage...this will not change.

And yes, I do believe there are "sexist" tropes in games. But the appearance of sexy women, even exaggerated sexy ones, is not by default sexist. Such has existed in adventure fiction throughout history.

If such gives a person "permission" to act in a negative way, I'm of the mind that, most of the time, it is not he game, it is the person.

For proof, take a real, attractive woman. Heck, it doesn't even have to be an attractive one. Dress her provocatively.

Sexiness, anonymity, money, power, all of them. They don't shape character.

They reveal it. Same with games.

You dress all female characters in games like nuns, it's not going to change trollish male behavior.

Now, are there crappy games that delve into negative human behavior, seeking to encourage and indulge in it? There are, but I daresay they are the minority of games, and probably not very good ones.

Tomb Raider (and I'm not even a fan of the series) would not be an example of this.

 

[Tiberius]

And yes, I do believe there are "sexist" tropes in games. But the appearance of sexy women, even exaggerated sexy ones, is not by default sexist. Such has existed in adventure fiction throughout history.

I think that when you present a woman with large breasts, a tiny waist and top level armor that leaves nothing to the imagination, you are sending a very sexist message - that women are sex objects, no matter what else they are.

 

[Kelthaz]

This has nothing to do with appearance or dress and everything to do with female characterization. The way women dress is just a symptom of the problem and not a cause.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I have been playing MMO's (a lot) since 2005 and I've hardly ever made any negative experiences regarding sexism or inappropriate behaviour by other players. I've (almost) always played female characters and the vast majority of players have been nice.

Just saying.

Your mileage may vary, though because for some reason I've always found European servers to have a far nicer community than US servers. The latter used to be full of drama, occasional sexism and insults so I avoid them. Different games also clearly had different communities. Everquest 2 for example seemed far more mature than Rift or WoW (which I haven't played much because it's so childish.).

 

[Robert Maxwell]

People will be dicks on the internet. Get rid of cleavage...this will not change.

Straw man, beside the point.

And yes, I do believe there are "sexist" tropes in games. But the appearance of sexy women, even exaggerated sexy ones, is not by default sexist. Such has existed in adventure fiction throughout history.

Straw man, beside the point.

If such gives a person "permission" to act in a negative way, I'm of the mind that, most of the time, it is not he game, it is the person.

I'll grant you that. People are responsible for their own actions.

For proof, take a real, attractive woman. Heck, it doesn't even have to be an attractive one. Dress her provocatively.

Sexiness, anonymity, money, power, all of them. They don't shape character.

They reveal it. Same with games.

You dress all female characters in games like nuns, it's not going to change trollish male behavior.

Still another straw man, and beside the point.

Why do you keep criticizing things no one actually said? How women are dressed in games, in and of itself, doesn't mean anything. It's the context that matters. And the prevailing context is that a game with scantily-clad women also tends to be lacking in positive female characterization, and instead relies more on sexist stereotypes of how women look and behave.

Now, are there crappy games that delve into negative human behavior, seeking to encourage and indulge in it? There are, but I daresay they are the minority of games, and probably not very good ones.

There are fewer of those games than there used to be, but there's still progress to be made.

Tomb Raider (and I'm not even a fan of the series) would not be an example of this.

Based on what Arrqh said here, I would beg to differ with you about Tomb Raider. Giving you a female protagonist that you are invited to protect (by making her subject to abuse by enemies) absolutely plays into the sexist stereotype that a woman needs a man to protect her. And that's a current game in the franchise, not one from 10+ years ago.