Troi's powers

[Orphalesion]

No. There were no Betazoids in TOS. Besides, The "empath" in that episode has abilities never seen in any true Betazoid, at least to my knowledge.

And again, Betazed was name dropped in DISC Season 1.

Though I think Jedi Marso knows that there were no Betazoids in TOS, I think he just wants to retro-actively turn the ldy from the Empath into a Betazoid, just like some people want to retro-actively turn the guy from Squire of Goyhos into a Q.

But again, it doesn't work anyway, the powers are different, and DISC mentions Betazed in Season 1, long before TOS takes place.

 

[Herbert]

Yeah, I know but I despise retcons. As far as I'm concerned, there are no Betazoids in TOS despite what's been said in Discovery.

I'll never understand the need for some to want to fit everything together over 50+ years worth of shows, all produced by different people with different goals and motivations and no overarching continuity to try to hold it all together. It's folly to do so.

 

[Mojochi]

Perhaps in the future, our understanding of mental health is more complete, and might be structured a little differently than it is today.

I can see the CMO in a supervisory role in charge of all crew health, mental and physical. I wouldn't expect Dr. Crusher to be an expert in dentistry, but still makes sense to put the ship's dentists under her purview.

Exactly. It's administrative. She's not just the top doc. Though we don't often get a glimpse of her in this light, she's the commanding officer of the ship's medical branch. She's ranked & experienced enough at command that she eventually even gets shown serving bridge duties, or in command, or getting her own command in the finale.

Now, there's never been anything really stated about Troi & the other counselors being a unit at all, but being that there are other counselors, it seems sensible to assume, for numerous reasons, that Troi is their chief. If such is the case, how could a unit that sees to crew health (Even in that capacity) not be under Bev's umbrella, in some way? I mean it's not like Deanna being a therapist would have no relation to someone once it was discovered that they might need medical intervention for their psych issue, which is more probably administered by Crusher. Troi is part of the medical branch, which is why they eventually figured out she should be in the blue suit.

 

[Takeru]

Deanna seemed to have a lot of authority on the ship, she crew evaluations with Will for example, in Lower Decks Beverly said she recommended Ogawa for a promotion but Will and Deanna decided wether she got it or not, if Deanna could object to Beverly wanting to promote someone in her department I seriously doubt Beverly was in charge of her.

 

[Orphalesion]

Yeah, I know but I despise retcons. As far as I'm concerned, there are no Betazoids in TOS despite what's been said in Discovery.

I'll never understand the need for some to want to fit everything together over 50+ years worth of shows, all produced by different people with different goals and motivations and no overarching continuity to try to hold it all together. It's folly to do so.

Well, you do you, I suppose. Just don't expect the creators and licence holders of Trek to care about it.

Official stance is that Betazoids, Barzans and Trill were known by the DISC era.
In the case of the Betazoids it isn't even much of a retcon, since we never got the FC date between them and the UFP (and TNG didn't give the impression either that Betazoids were newcomers), and considering how many species exist in the Federation, and how large it appears to be, and that in TOS the ship was moving in forntier territory, it's perfectly possible that these species just didn't happen to come up in the three seasons TOS had. It doesn't contradict established information, it doesn't make things "true, from a certain point of view", it's the most nonintrusive kind of retcon.

 

[Mojochi]

Deanna seemed to have a lot of authority on the ship, she crew evaluations with Will for example, in Lower Decks Beverly said she recommended Ogawa for a promotion but Will and Deanna decided wether she got it or not, if Deanna could object to Beverly wanting to promote someone in her department I seriously doubt Beverly was in charge of her.

But crew evals for promotion seemingly go through some sort of mental fitness what-have-you, if Troi is involved somehow. That's her area of expertise. Just because an administrator has rank or title above someone, doesn't mean they supersede their area of expertise

This is all hypothetical anyhow. There never was any mention of a connection of Deanna & Bev's medical branches, but it just seems odd, to me at least, that there wouldn't be.

 

[Herbert]

Well, you do you, I suppose. Just don't expect the creators and licence holders of Trek to care about it.

Thanks for your permission. I will. Dang it! I had my letter-writing campaign all ready to go. Oh well

Seriously though, It's really no different than those who subscribe to "head canon" which seems to be a tolerated thing around here.

 

[Skipper]

The problem with her character is that she was too many things. She is a bridge officer, she is the ship therapist, she is a diplomatic, in Darmok she is even a linguist. Really, I know that the writers didn't know what to do with her, but they overcompensated a little too much.

And still it wasn't enough, so she decided to become a line officer and later completed the Bridge Officer's Test. Considering that just being the only shrink in a city of 1000 should be a full time job.

 

[Orphalesion]

Thanks for your permission.

I didn't give you permission to do anything. I acknowledged that it's your opinion and said why I, or the current creative teams behind Star Trek, don't share it, as I would do in the case of somebody bringing up head-canon or even when bringing up my own headcanon.

I also have my head-canon that the whole Klingon Augment Virus nonsense never happened. And there's a whole branch of Middle Earth lore I refuse to acknwledge because it bites with a handful sentences in the Lord of the Rings.

The problem with her character is that she was too many things. She is a bridge officer, she is the ship therapist, she is a diplomatic, in Darmok she is even a linguist. Really, I know that the writers didn't know what to do with her, but they overcompensated a little too much.

And still it wasn't enough, so she decided to become a line officer and later completed the Bridge Officer's Test. Considering that just being the only shrink in a city of 1000 should be a full time job.

Yeah, I think that was a result of her character not doing much in the earlier seasons where it seemed like she was just sitting in her chair and looking pretty.
To respond to that they gave Troi more and more duties and fields of expertise until it reached the point where you gotta wonder whether Troi sleeps at all.

 

[Skipper]

I didn't give you permission to do anything. I acknowledged that it's your opinion and said why I, or the current creative teams behind Star Trek, don't share it, as I would do in the case of somebody bringing up head-canon or even when bringing up my own headcanon.

I also have my head-canon that the whole Klingon Augment Virus nonsense never happened. And there's a whole branch of Middle Earth lore I refuse to acknwledge because it bites with a handful sentences in the Lord of the Rings.



Yeah, I think that was a result of her character not doing much in the earlier seasons where it seemed like she was just sitting in her chair and looking pretty.
To respond to that they gave Troi more and more duties and fields of expertise until it reached the point where you gotta wonder whether Troi sleeps at all.

There was an article written by a therapist that explains a single counselor wouldn't be simply enough for 1000 people...

Searching...

Found!!!


Counselor Troi is not Scalable

For those not familiar with Counselor Troi, she was the ship’s counselor on the starship Enterprise on the TV show “Star Trek: The Next Generation”. She was telepathic, she wore tight purple jump-suits and dresses during the first years of the show instead of the uniforms that the rest of the crew wore, and she basically did talk therapy — crew members came to her to explain their inner struggles and she asked them questions. When the show launched in the early nineties, she typified the popular view of therapy at the time: you sat and talked to a nice person that tried to read your mind while helping you uncover insights that solved all of your problems.

Counselor Troi’s role also reflected the popular view of mental illness at the time: other people had them. Despite the prescient innovations the Star Trek universe imagined for physical healthcare — like tricorders and replicators — its vision for the future of mental healthcare was basically Sigmund Freud in a low-cut leotard (I apologize if I just destroyed anybody’s adolescent Deanna Troi fantasies).

Since the nineties, I’d say there’s a greater awareness that mental illnesses are more common than most people assumed, and you can’t just talk about your feelings and make these illnesses go away. Now consumers expect their therapist to practice an evidence-based form of therapy like CBT, DBT, ACT, etc. There are methodologies, healthy actions that patients can take, and recovery is becoming a clearer path for consumers and providers. But there’s still the expectation that you have to learn those methodologies and walk that path of recovery with a therapist, with your own version of Counselor Troi. And this brings us to the Counselor Troi Problem:

Counselor Troi is not scalable.

If everybody must work with Counsellor Troi to improve and maintain their mental health, the ship is going to fall apart in a mess of mental illnesses. There are not enough Counselor Trois on the Starship Enterprise to meet the mental health needs of the crew.

 

[Skipper]

Incidentally, why should I talk about my personal problems with peace of mind to Deanna, knowing that the latter also decides on my eventual promotion?

Why should I confide in her at all??? I don't talk about my psychological issues with my boss because, well, it's my business first and foremost. Then I obviously want to project a certain image with him if I want a raise / promotion. And telling him I have PTSD because a friend died in my arms wouldn't help. Unless he took pity on me, but it doesn't really seem like a winning strategy to me.

 

[Orphalesion]

There was an article written by a therapist that explains a single counselor wouldn't be simply enough for 1000 people...

Oh definitely, I've been saying that for years. Even a few pages ago in this thread I said that I don't want to imagine the lines in-front of Troi's office an event like Disaster or Best of Both Worlds.
And that''s ignoring all the other duties they gave her in later seasons, or the time she spends sitting on the bridge and playing Tetris.
Realistically there should have been a whole mental health department with a number of members specialising in different types of mental health care and different approaches.

 

[Skipper]

Realistically there should have been a whole mental health department with a number of members specialising in different types of mental health care and different approaches.

One could rationalize by saying that this department existed and they simply never talked about it and we never saw it, of course it is a bit strange that in seven years they never mentioned it ...

 

[Orphalesion]

One could rationalize by saying that this department existed and they simply never talked about it and we never saw it, of course it is a bit strange that in seven years they never mentioned it ...

It's the most sensible solution. And we did get confirmation that ships have more than one counsellor later with Ezri, who had been "assistant ship's counsellor" on some ship before joining with the Dax symbiote.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Deanna seemed to have a lot of authority on the ship, she crew evaluations with Will for example, in Lower Decks Beverly said she recommended Ogawa for a promotion but Will and Deanna decided wether she got it or not, if Deanna could object to Beverly wanting to promote someone in her department I seriously doubt Beverly was in charge of her.

Don't know about that. If a CMO can occasionally give orders to a ship's captain, doesn't seem unreasonable that a senior specialist has the authority to at least weigh in on that area of specialty.

 

[dupersuper]

Official stance is that Betazoids, Barzans and Trill were known by the DISC era.
In the case of the Betazoids it isn't even much of a retcon

It's not a retcon for any of them, as we had no previous knowledge of when they joined/made first contact with the Federation. It's really not a retcon for the Trill, as we did know that Dax knew McCoy before he became a doctor.

 

[MarkusTay]

Harry Mudd robbing a bank on a planet of telepaths? Just UGH!

There is also an episode of Voyager wherein Tuvok is talking telepathically to a person from a society of telepaths, so perhaps a half-betazed has about the same capacity as a Vulcan? I would also theorize that half-breeds (hybrids) sometimes have heightened abilities due to the broader genetic spectrum (at least this has shown to be true in many cases with Earth species), which explains why Spock can do some stuff that even most Vulcans can't (mind-melds are supposedly a rare talent). So, maybe Deana's abilities are skewed from what would be 'Betazoid normal', giving her exceptional (physical) range, but what she can sense is dulled (like emotions, or only being able to 'speak' with other telepaths).

Also, its heavily implied in that Voy. episode that Vulcans can speak to one-another telepathically whenever they want, but choose not to "out of respect" for species who can't... yet, we never see evidence of that, ever. That sure would have come in handy a few times.

 

[Mojochi]

The fact that Sarek can spread his emotional condition to infect an entire ship's complement, that Spock can host his consciousness in another person, that Sakkath was able to use his own mind to settle Sarek's, that katras themselves can be hosted in other people or vessels permanently, that a mindmeld leaves a permanent imprint of those people on one another, leads me to suspect that Vulcans are among the most powerful telepaths in the entire franchise. We just never see them featured that way really

And that they don't engage in routine telepathy like for example Lwaxana Troi does, seems less like it's about respect for those who can't, & more like another aspect of their discipline, that they might actually see it as a frivolous or lowly use of that skill, & so deliberately refrain from allowing themselves to do it.

I mean, as elitist, & haughty as they can be, would it really surprise anyone that Vulcans might consider constantly knowing the thoughts of others rather vulgar? Personally, what I think they might have a respect for is the sanctity, & majesty of the mind, such that they'd not sully their gift to share them, like it's some kind of basic olfactory sense. "Ooo! I smell fear & deception!" What Vulcan is going to want to be so crass as to tramps around in minds like that? I'd think they'd train to be the very opposite of that, such that it might even have become foreign to them.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

I would also theorize that half-breeds (hybrids) sometimes have heightened abilities due to the broader genetic spectrum (at least this has shown to be true in many cases with Earth species), which explains why Spock can do some stuff that even most Vulcans can't (mind-melds are supposedly a rare talent).

Are they? I don't remember that.

Intensely private, and not to be discussed with anyone, but I don't remember hearing that the ability itself is rare.

 

[Kor]

At the beginning of ENT, the ability to initiate a mind meld was thought to be rare, and melding itself a deviant practice. T'Pol didn't even know what it was! That's how taboo it had become. However, the Kir'shara story arc in S4 made clear that was all misconception and suppression.

From "The Forge" as transcribed at chakoteya.net:
ARCHER: Syrrannite's [sic] conduct mind-melding?
AREV: Surak tells us it is the heritage of every Vulcan. Even those who don't believe in the practise [sic].

And more Vulcan melders come out of the woodwork such as Soval. Since melding had been considered taboo by Vulcan society, it's likely that a lot of Vulcans such as T'Pol weren't able to initiate a meld simply because they had never been trained to.

Kor