Trip as 3rd in command

[saladdays]

Is it just me, or does Trip being 3rd in command on the Enterprise end up causing him to be on the bridge more often than he probably should, considering he is chief engineer? I mean, there's a few times when he's in command and isn't down in engineering when he probably ought to be.

 

[ItIsGreen]

Scotty was third in command in TOS, too. Tbh they both probably had well trained teams who could cope without them for a few hours, and both Enterprises had engineering stations on the bridge anyway.

 

[MacLeod]

Welll one possible difference is the the NX had more or less a prototype engine, the 1701 didn't. But whilst I have no real problem with Trip being 2nd officer, I would likely have made Reed the same rank as Trip and given that position to him.

 

[saladdays]

Scotty was third in command in TOS, too. Tbh they both probably had well trained teams who could cope without them for a few hours, and both Enterprises had engineering stations on the bridge anyway.

Good point about Scotty. I forgot about that. I suppose being 3rd in command isn't the issue so much. I just seem to recall at least a couple of times where Trip probably should be in engineering in a "red alert" type situation and he was actually on the bridge.

 

[Timo]

It should be remembered that Archer launched on a hasty, impromptu mission where he had to bribe or blackmail key officers to attend. The people he had aboard are unlikely to have represented the textbook command crew setup of a mid-22nd century starship.

Archer had no XO, just a Science Advisor who was so valuable that her word had to be given the authority of command. Kirk had a slightly different setup, one where the Science Officer had the full credentials for command - and possibly also one where the original XO had died in the pilot episode, with no replacements available in untamed deep space.

That both skippers would be outliers in the statistics of Starfleet command setups doesn't explain why Kirk would want his Chief Engineer to be his third-in-command, though. But perhaps Scotty had to move from a "pure" engineer role to a position of multiple responsiblity because of the loss of Kelso, or one of the nine killed at the Barrier?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shikarnov]

Scotty was third in command in TOS, too. Tbh they both probably had well trained teams who could cope without them for a few hours, and both Enterprises had engineering stations on the bridge anyway.

I'm not so sure about that. If Commander Kelby -- arguably Enterprise's 2nd best since he replaced Trip when he transferred to Columbia -- is any indication, then Trip was either an incompetent manager that failed to properly train his people, or some kind of natural genius that nobody could replace. In either case, I tend to agree with the OP in thinking that Trip was needed more in Engineering than on the bridge.

 

[eyeresist]

I guess there is some Starfleet policy that the chief engineer is high in line for the top job. For whatever reason, they are deemed more capable of the position than any bridge officer other than the captain and science officer. It may have something to do with level of responsibility rather than physical convenience. After the captain, and the chief science officer (who, until TNG, was effectively deputy captain), it is the engineer who has most responsibility for the safety of the ship. Therefore (arguably), they should be third in line for command.

 

[Shikarnov]

^ You may be on to something, especially if we think of the Ops post in TNG as related in some way to the operations divisions of yesteryear. Perhaps the combined duties of Data and La Forge were once handled by Trip and Scotty individually -- but split into two jobs as the ships (and crews) grew larger and more complex. Seen this way, the chain of command would really be pretty consistent.

I think the aberrations in DS9 and Voyager are probably pretty easily explained by their unique mission and circumstances, respectively.

 

[JoeCabby]

It's more of a popularity contest if anything. I think in reality, Malcolm would be ideal for 3rd in command. If both your captain and 2nd in command are killed/incapacitated then you're probably in pretty bad situation and need someone with combat experience to get you out of it. The Tactical officer would be more ideal in this situation.
I always felt the same with TOS. And sorry to place the race card, but I think Scotty was only chosen because they didn't want an asian man, a black woman or a Russian to command the ship while the captain and second were on a mission.

 

[saladdays]

It's more of a popularity contest if anything. I think in reality, Malcolm would be ideal for 3rd in command. If both your captain and 2nd in command are killed/incapacitated then you're probably in pretty bad situation and need someone with combat experience to get you out of it. The Tactical officer would be more ideal in this situation.
I always felt the same with TOS. And sorry to place the race card, but I think Scotty was only chosen because they didn't want an asian man, a black woman or a Russian to command the ship while the captain and second were on a mission.

I don't recall, and I haven't seen every episode of TOS. How often is Scotty actually on the bridge?

 

[JoeCabby]

I don't recall, and I haven't seen every episode of TOS. How often is Scotty actually on the bridge?

Quite often I think, it seems to start near the middle/end of the first season. I know I just watched that Chicago Gangsters planet episode and Scotty is the one in charge of the ship while Kirk and Spock are on the planet.

 

[eyeresist]

It's more of a popularity contest if anything. I think in reality, Malcolm would be ideal for 3rd in command. If both your captain and 2nd in command are killed/incapacitated then you're probably in pretty bad situation and need someone with combat experience to get you out of it. The Tactical officer would be more ideal in this situation.

In a battle situation, Malcolm would be an excellent commander, agreed. But given that he is even more socially awkward than Archer, I think he would struggle with the broader "management" of a ship that a captain is required to do. ENT does repeatedly show that Malcolm is more concerned with effectiveness and efficiency than morale, whereas I'd say morale is the foundation on which everything else is built.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Personally, despite the fact that it does seem like Trip should stay in Engineering rather than commanding the Bridge in Archer and T'Pol's absense, watching s1 & 2 again, I think - with the exception of Congenitor - that Trip actually showed himself to be a better commander than either Archer or T'Pol.

 

[eyeresist]

What about The Seventh, when Trip is left in charge find he hates having to do captain stuff?

 

[Skywalker]

What I thought was weird was that Trip actually had his own specific station on the bridge, complete with console and computer systems. Sure, he can monitor things from there, but what good is he if something happens in Engineering and he's up there on the bridge?

 

[eyeresist]

Call engineering and tell them what to do?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

What about The Seventh, when Trip is left in charge find he hates having to do captain stuff?

Maybe it's just me, but some of that came across the other senior staff trolling Trip cos they thought he was 'taking advantage' of the situation.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Welll one possible difference is the the NX had more or less a prototype engine, the 1701 didn't. But whilst I have no real problem with Trip being 2nd officer, I would likely have made Reed the same rank as Trip and given that position to him.

Exactly my feeling. I know they probably were going for that scotty connection by making Trip 3rd in command, but it really should have been Reed. Especially with the NX as out gunned and out technologied as it was all the time, the place for the chief engineer was engineering. A chief of security who is also secretly part of section 31 would seem like someone who should be more qualified than a boat mechanic to be 3rd in command.

 

[saladdays]

What I thought was weird was that Trip actually had his own specific station on the bridge, complete with console and computer systems. Sure, he can monitor things from there, but what good is he if something happens in Engineering and he's up there on the bridge?

The Enterprise-D had an engineering station on the bridge as well, although granted it wasn't really used as much as the one on the NX, at least by Geordi.

 

[Lance Charger]

I think this has to do with the command structures of the earlier series. Kirk was the chief of the Gold shirts, Spock was chief of the Blue shirts, and Scotty was chief of the Red shirts. All of them were command level officers. Same with Archer, T'Pol, and Trip.

Obviously, Star Trek agreed with the OP when they reorganized the command structure and made all Red shirts command. However, there's obviously a hole in this theory because Troy took the command test but never ditched the blue shirt (when she chose to wear a uniform).