Trill Question (TNG and DS9)

[Paradon]

I guess at the time it was big secret...just like the fact they never told anyone that any Trill can join with the symbionts.

 

[Finn]

What indications were there that it was a long-held secret besides the fact that Crusher didn't know about it?

Beverly would have known if it wasn't a secret since Trills had been among Humans and Vulcans for at least two centuries. Not an ironclad logic, I know, but it's not likely that the CMO of the flagship and former Starfleet Medicine head (silly, I know but its canon) would not know of this.

The truth is they didn't expect the Trill to be used again

 

[Nerys Myk]

Its not bad writing. It just means they changed their minds. Spock went under a transformation or two as well.

 

[T'Girl]

for my part I would assume that the fact the Trill were a joined species is an open secret

Consider after the events of Amok Time, did Kirk and McCoy quickly jump on the Subspace Internet and blog about all they had just seen and heard? Even by the time of Voyager, Pon Farr didn't seem to be general knowledge.

Admiral Morrow said in TSFS that he didn't understand Vulcan "mysticism." He would seem to be referring to mind melds and katras. Some fifteen years after McCoy first saw Spock mind meld with Doctor Gelder.

So when at some point young Ben Sisko discover the whole "slug in the gut" thing from Curzon, who's to say he immediately ran out and told every last person who would listen? The crew of the Enterprise Dee on the other hand probably did just that.

After the Odan incident, the cat was out of the bag, and the Trill came clean.

"Oh, I'm terrible sorry. Didn't we already mention that?"

 

[Timo]

And yes, it was established that Curzon was the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire. Jadzia herself said that Curzon negotiated the Khitomer accords.

But did she ever say Curzon was an ambassador?

We have precedent of rogue diplomats doing the UFP's bidding in important deals. Indeed, it's quite likely that an outsider would be required to negotiate a peace between the Feds and the Klingons. And according to "Loud as a Whisper", such freelances would remain quite secretive, or at least our heroes would be completely ignorant of even the basic facts of the negotiators' nature and existence.

Can anybody come up with an actual reference to Curzon being an ambassador? A single mention of "Ambassador Curzon" in an episode should do.

And Ben wasn't his bellboy. Curzon was his mentor in his academy days, when Curzon was old and no longer in active duty-hence the title Old Man.

Any episode references?

Diplomat Curzon was Ensign Sisko's adoptive father or big brother in the I'll-teach-ya-everything-about-women-and-booze sense, yes. But where are the references to Curzon ever having been in active Starfleet duty?

It's just a collection of urban myths, apparently.

After the Odan incident, the cat was out of the bag, and the Trill came clean.

One wonders whether anything from "The Host" would really have been sufficient for forcing the Trill out of the tummy closet. It's just some top officers aboard a single starship who'd come to know the truth; Starfleet could just tell Picard, Crusher and Riker to keep their mouths shut.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GemHaters]

Curzon was a Starfleet Officer and a Federation Ambassador, as well as Benjamin Sisko's mentor. And you're telling me, that not once did he come across a situation where he'd have to use a transporter?

I don't think Curzon had anything to do with Starfleet, least of all being employed by that military organization. Starfleet just provided the negotiator with a young bodyguard/liaison/bellhop named Ben Sisko. The two would then go on to "serve together" on a starship at least once, but with only one of them being on Starfleet employ.

(Really, was Curzon an ambassador, either? Or was he just a freelance negotiator like Riva from "Loud as a Whisper"? Which episode would establish his credentials?)

Whether Curzon ever told Sisko that something was bugging him is unknown. The fact that Dax didn't die when Curzon did might have come as a surprise and a shock to Sisko, but he would have had a bit of time before DS9 "Emissary" to get used to the fact that his best friend was a parasite.

As for Curzon not getting caught - such an important VIP would never be short on ways to avoid scrutiny! He could tell his personal aide and friend to operate the transporter for him every time, and Sisko would neatly disable the biofilter (in case this was a threat to the symbiont's health or life) or the recording function of the scanners (in case Curzon and Odan merely worried about leaving a trace, and there never was a threat to their life from transporter use).

If anything, it's a case of excellent writing, as nothing about DS9 really directly contradicts what was said or shown in TNG, even though DS9 writers give us a far more dramatically useful character and species.

Timo Saloniemi

Holy fanwanking Batman!

And yes, it was established that Curzon was the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire. Jadzia herself said that Curzon negotiated the Khitomer accords. And Ben wasn't his bellboy. Curzon was his mentor in his academy days, when Curzon was old and no longer in active duty-hence the title Old Man.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

I bow to you....

 

[GemHaters]

I disagree that everyone had to know Trills were joined just because of Curzon. Obviously his species name would be common knowledge, just not this particular detail.

It was a case of bad writing. Plain and simple.

Go Red Sox!

That's a bit dismissive...

Honestly, I only said that because Mr. Laser Beam's response was so ignorant, that I didn't think it warranted any further response....I wouldn't expect anything less from a Yankees fan....There's no crying in baseball or Star Trek, unless it's New York...

 

[RoJoHen]

For all we know Odan was a transporter-phobe and a pathological liar.

 

[T'Girl]

and a pathological liar.

The perfect diplomat.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

As for the ridges: Non-canon though it may be, I accept the Forged In Fire explanation:

Spoiler: novel

It was the Klingons. A strain of the Augment virus managed to infect a Trill colony when the Klingons visited it.

I've never understood that.

Spoiler: The Augment Virus

The virus took away Klingon ridges. Why would it give the Trill ridges?

 

[JB2005]

As for the ridges: Non-canon though it may be, I accept the Forged In Fire explanation:

Spoiler: novel

It was the Klingons. A strain of the Augment virus managed to infect a Trill colony when the Klingons visited it.

I've never understood that.

Spoiler: The Augment Virus

The virus took away Klingon ridges. Why would it give the Trill ridges?

Why not?

Spoiler: Enterprise

It gave Archer temporary ridges...

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

^Uh...it did? I forgot that. Well that's stupid.

 

[JB2005]

Still counts as a reasonable explanation though

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Nah, I still don't like it. I'd prefer to think there are simply two kinds of humanoid Trill hosts, one with ridges and one with spots, although the ridged variety (race? species?) is significantly rarer than the other.

 

[JB2005]

Yeah I'd go with that! And it doesn't even have to be that the ridged variety are rarer, just that we see fewer of them...

I mean when you think about it, 1/5 of the world's population are Chinese, but that proportion doesn't interact with my day to day experiences because of where I am in the world! By the same token, it could just be that our heroes tend to run into the Kriosian-oid Trill more often than they do the ridged variety!

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Exactly. Makes a lot more sense to me than the Klingon virus theory. Also a good point about rarity (or a lack thereof.)

 

[JB2005]

I make a lot of points, eventually some of them will start to make sense - it's the law of averages!

It would explain why Jadzia can beam and Odan can't, and why the naming conventions are different and why the host seems to be subsumed by the symbiote in Odan's case! The difference is because of different Ethnicities! The Trill could be like the different Xindi races maybe?

 

[Timo]

Just different people, I guess. Odan wouldn't bother with adding the host name because that goes against the oh so convenient fiction that "he" is actually "his" own son. Just use a single name and people will mistake it for a family name!

Also, Odan wouldn't bother with giving a say to the host personality, because it's a slug with a mission. No time for niceties; if there's gonna be a romance with Crusher, allowing Riker or the new female host to intervene would just waste precious hours. We have no idea how much room Dax gave to Jadzia or Ezri, either. Probably not a whole lot.

On the issue of Curzon being in Starfleet, I've gone through all the ep transcripts now, and the references are absent. He's never called ambassador, either. Indeed, in "The Forsaken", the annoying trio of Federation ambassadors witness the encounter with the Gamma Quadrant probe, and when Sisko shoos them away, Ambassador Vadosia tries to argue that at least one Federation Ambassador ought to be present. Nobody diplomatically suggests that Dax, who remains present, would be taking care of that!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Jadzia isn't entitled to diplomatic status just because Curzon was. They are different individuals under Trill (and Federation) law.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Its not bad writing. It just means they changed their minds. Spock went under a transformation or two as well.

I agree with "not bad writing", but would add that Odan was probably only meant as another "alien of the week" on TNG.

They never imagined the Trill would become a major focus of the next series. If they did, they might have left some information out, or added more.