Trek's lowest moment

[Dukhat]

His abandoning TOS in the 3rd season certainly had implications to the quality of the scripts and to the future departures of Justman and Fontana. His ethics were always in question by the higher-ups given his affinity for casting women he was sleeping with (Nichols, Barrett) which, among other things, did not help him politically where he needed some capital.

That's not really a fair assessment of "Trek's lowest moment," IMHO. During its original run Star Trek was not that popular, and Roddenberry's actions wouldn't have changed the fact that the show was still going to get cancelled after the third season anyway. You can't fault him for not knowing at the time that his creation would turn into the phenomenon that it did.

It also caused / allowed most of what sucked in the first two seasons of TNG. It alienated good people like Fontana and David Gerrold.

While I agree that Roddenberry's antics during the start of TNG would probably have caused that show to get cancelled had it been on a regular network instead of being syndicated, this also isn't quite a "low" moment for Trek. In fact, I'd argue that Star Trek was at it's most popular moment ever during the entire run of TNG, Roddenberry or not.

His behavior as Producer / Writer on Star Trek- The Motion Picture almost ended the franchise and alienated several key players, including Nimoy. It also resulted in his permanent exile from the movie franchise.

But again, this wasn't a "low" moment for Trek, as the next three films were hugely successful despite whatever Roddenberry felt about them.

Don't get me wrong. I'm eternally grateful for the gift he has given us all, God rest his soul...but that's why the truth about the man he was is, indeed, a low-point.

And as I said before, I think you're confusing your personal feelings toward Roddenberry with some type of irreparable damage that you seem to think he caused Star Trek in general. Yes, he was a deeply flawed man and yes, he probably should not have been put in charge of TNG at the start. But I'd blame UPN, Berman, and Braga for Star Trek's lowest moments far more than I'd ever blame Roddenberry.

T'Pol's buttcrack, indeed.

I stand by what I wrote.

 

[Sci]

The incredible racism of the episode "Code of Honor" is pretty clearly Star Trek's lowest point. Very close runner up would be the incredible contempt with which Rand is treated in TOS after being nearly raped.

 

[T'Girl]

Probably because I have no idea what you're talking about, since if this scene actually happened I don't remember it, while I certainly remember seeing asscrack on T'Pol, since she was completely nude from the back. Kinda hard to miss that.

Seeing T"Pol (body double) from the back nude with a hint of ass cleavage, is no different than seeing Seven from the back nude with a hint of "side boob."

The point I'm making is that the scene with T'Pol doesn't exist as a unique example of "UPN and B&B pandering to the lowest common denominator of viewer." It wasn't a low point, but a standard.

Andrea's breasts being covered solely by narrow straps predates both UPN and B&B, as does Nona topless under the waterfall. Gratuitous sexual costumes and partial nudity run all through Star Trek starting with the first pilot. If Roddenberry could have figured out a way to do it, the show's actresses would have been attired solely in gee-strings.

 

[Dukhat]

Seeing T"Pol (body double) from the back nude with a hint of ass cleavage, is no different than seeing Seven from the back nude with a hint of "side boob."

The point I'm making is that the scene with T'Pol doesn't exist as a unique example of "UPN and B&B pandering to the lowest common denominator of viewer." It wasn't a low point, but a standard.

And I'd argue that just the existence of 7 of 9 and T'Pol were B&B pandering to the lowest common denominator, no matter what body parts they showed in a particular episode.

Andrea's breasts being covered solely by narrow straps predates both UPN and B&B, as does Nona topless under the waterfall. Gratuitous sexual costumes and partial nudity run all through Star Trek starting with the first pilot. If Roddenberry could have figured out a way to do it, the show's actresses would have been attired solely in gee-strings.

1. Who are Andrea and Nona?

2. The difference here is that gratuitous sexual costumes and partial nudity in TOS weren't there because the show was in danger of being cancelled due to poor ratings causing the network to decide to sex the show up in a pathetic last-ditch effort to attract horny teenage boys.

 

[Vger23]

His abandoning TOS in the 3rd season certainly had implications to the quality of the scripts and to the future departures of Justman and Fontana. His ethics were always in question by the higher-ups given his affinity for casting women he was sleeping with (Nichols, Barrett) which, among other things, did not help him politically where he needed some capital.

That's not really a fair assessment of "Trek's lowest moment," IMHO. During its original run Star Trek was not that popular, and Roddenberry's actions wouldn't have changed the fact that the show was still going to get cancelled after the third season anyway. You can't fault him for not knowing at the time that his creation would turn into the phenomenon that it did.

It also caused / allowed most of what sucked in the first two seasons of TNG. It alienated good people like Fontana and David Gerrold.

While I agree that Roddenberry's antics during the start of TNG would probably have caused that show to get cancelled had it been on a regular network instead of being syndicated, this also isn't quite a "low" moment for Trek. In fact, I'd argue that Star Trek was at it's most popular moment ever during the entire run of TNG, Roddenberry or not.

But again, this wasn't a "low" moment for Trek, as the next three films were hugely successful despite whatever Roddenberry felt about them.

Don't get me wrong. I'm eternally grateful for the gift he has given us all, God rest his soul...but that's why the truth about the man he was is, indeed, a low-point.

And as I said before, I think you're confusing your personal feelings toward Roddenberry with some type of irreparable damage that you seem to think he caused Star Trek in general. Yes, he was a deeply flawed man and yes, he probably should not have been put in charge of TNG at the start. But I'd blame UPN, Berman, and Braga for Star Trek's lowest moments far more than I'd ever blame Roddenberry.

T'Pol's buttcrack, indeed.

I stand by what I wrote.

That's ok. If a little gratuitous skin is more offensive than the massive flaws and irresponsible behaviors of the primary driving creative force (or at least, the one identified as such) behind the franchise in its most formative stages (TOS, TMP, and kick off of TNG), I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "low point," which is what you seem intent on doing.

A discussion about a "low point" in a franchise that has spanned 50 years is always going to be based on "personal feelings." Not sure how to avoid that. You have your "personal feelings" about ass cracks. I have them about Roddenberry's lifestyle.

I guess that's the end of that discussion.

 

[Vger23]

For me, Trek's lowest moment was when we saw T'Pol's buttcrack.

How was that much different that Deanna opening the door to her quarters wear a shear white top where you could see her areolas?

Probably because I have no idea what you're talking about, since if this scene actually happened I don't remember it, while I certainly remember seeing asscrack on T'Pol, since she was completely nude from the back. Kinda hard to miss that.

The scene most certainly happened. It was far more memorable than the T'Pol scene.

http://media.tumblr.com/ffee54212cbd18d5bdfe1d77c6d233d2/tumblr_inline_mloniyUCy91qz4rgp.jpg

http://s150.photobucket.com/user/aj...ople/Screenshot2010-10-06at114417PM1.png.html

 

[Nerys Myk]

For me, Trek's lowest moment was when we saw T'Pol's buttcrack.

How was that much different that Deanna opening the door to her quarters wear a shear white top where you could see her areolas?

Probably because I have no idea what you're talking about, since if this scene actually happened I don't remember it, while I certainly remember seeing asscrack on T'Pol, since she was completely nude from the back. Kinda hard to miss that.

What's the problem with seeing a nude back and an asscrack? Trek has rarely shied away from getting in as much nudity as they could slip past the censors. Be it Kirk's bare chest, side boob from Andrea, Picard's nude art model or Q popping up nude on the bridge.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

As far as just a flat completely tasteless scene goes: when they blew Remick's head clean off and the mother creature emerged. It was way over the top violent and disgusting and I still can't watch it to this day. I know some gore freaks get off on it but ST should know better. If you want gore go watch a Rob Zombie film.

Plus it made Picard and Riker just look like a couple of cold blooded murderers by just blowing away a fellow starfleet officer, who'd done nothing wrong besides be taken over by an alien species. No attempt to stun him and see if he could be saved, no calling Data and Worf to come down to try and overpower him and see if he could be helped. Nope lets just blow his fucking head off and hope his brains don't get on our uniforms.

It was made even worse by the fact that even though Remick was a dick for most of the earlier episode he was on, at the end he was shown that he was just doing his job and was actually a decent guy.

"Thanks for all those nice things you said about us a crew Remick, now eat maximum setting phaser beam and watch your head explode."

Remick no longer had any internal organs so if Picard had talked the alien to death Remick would still be dead.

 

[T'Girl]

The difference here is that gratuitous sexual costumes and partial nudity in TOS weren't there because the show was in danger of being cancelled due to poor ratings ...

Stop. You honestly believe that if the show were getting much better ratings that the T'Pol bareback scene wouldn't have happened?

Of course the scene still would have been in the episode.

Probably because I have no idea what you're talking about

Who are Andrea and Nona?

Things are becoming clearer.

 

[Trekkin]

I personally think people dont get so worked up about TOS fan service, because it was just a given for every episode.In TOS its white noise from the start, whereas in later series it tended to be a special 'moment' (except for Troi's boobs.)

I personally have no problem with fanservice, so long as it goes both ways (a shirtless Kirk in really tight pants for every Theiss dress) and doesn't bog down an episode (which was the problem with Night in Sickbay.) The...use...of Khans chest in both his appearances is a good way to do it right.

 

[Autistoid]

For me, Trek's lowest moment was when we saw T'Pol's buttcrack.

How was that much different that Deanna opening the door to her quarters wear a shear white top where you could see her areolas?

The massive difference is that TRoi from the beginning was developed as a sexual person.

7of9, and T'Pol were not ever remotely sexual characters nor was there a need for them to be.

Troi could of literally walked around set naked and it would of fit her character.

This is why voyager and ENT were just inherently dumb shows. They copied a formula and never understood why it was such bad work.


Anyway one of the most dissapointing momments in my early teens was watching the first episode of Enterprise.

Hearing that god awful theme song was one of the most confusing momments of my life.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The massive difference is that TRoi from the beginning was developed as a sexual person.

7of9, and T'Pol were not ever remotely sexual characters nor was there a need for them to be.

What gives you that impression?

Anyway one of the most dissapointing momments in my early teens was watching the first episode of Enterprise.

Hearing that god awful theme song was one of the most confusing momments of my life.

Why would you be confused by the theme song? It's just a song.

 

[MANT!]

Worst episodes in my personal order,

#3 TNG A Fist-Full of Datas (Really! Data as the Kitty character out of Gunsmoke?)

#2 TOS Turnabout Intruder (The Shat chewing up the scenery as a female character or shall I say...caricature)

#1 ENT These Are The Voyages (Total creative bankruptcy on parade.."It's the final show of Enterprise, let's make a TNG episode out of it!" the only thing I enjoyed was the end credits.. hey! I can say that about the Star Wars prequels too)

 

[Goji]

I love DS9, but watching Quark, dressed in drag, get chased around a table by another Ferengi wanting to have sex with him is really the kind of thing that makes me second guess my own entertainment choices. So I don't watch "Profit and Lace" particularly often.

The space hippies on TOS are a close second.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Don't be a Herbert.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

As far as just a flat completely tasteless scene goes: when they blew Remick's head clean off and the mother creature emerged. It was way over the top violent and disgusting and I still can't watch it to this day. I know some gore freaks get off on it but ST should know better. If you want gore go watch a Rob Zombie film.

Plus it made Picard and Riker just look like a couple of cold blooded murderers by just blowing away a fellow starfleet officer, who'd done nothing wrong besides be taken over by an alien species. No attempt to stun him and see if he could be saved, no calling Data and Worf to come down to try and overpower him and see if he could be helped. Nope lets just blow his fucking head off and hope his brains don't get on our uniforms.

It was made even worse by the fact that even though Remick was a dick for most of the earlier episode he was on, at the end he was shown that he was just doing his job and was actually a decent guy.

"Thanks for all those nice things you said about us a crew Remick, now eat maximum setting phaser beam and watch your head explode."

Remick no longer had any internal organs so if Picard had talked the alien to death Remick would still be dead.

And they knew this how? Yes it's a pretty safe bet when you have a cockroach the size of a black lab in you, you're dead. But Riker and Picard didn't run any scan, for all they knew he may have just had a small parasite on his brain in control of it all and it could have been removed by surgery.

They only knew there was this big thing in him after they blew his head off and it emerged from the neckhole.

You may remember an episode called "The Best Of Both Worlds". Where a semi important character named Picard was kidnapped and had his body and mind taken over by an alien. I didn't see anyone decide "Well he's done, let's just blow him away." Even when he started attacking people in sick bay no one whipped out a phaser and wasted him. Everyone was convinced, despite no evidence to support it until the end, that Picard was still alive and could be saved.

Shouldn't they have given Remick the same courtesy. If the creature burst out of his chest like in Alien, well he's clearly beyond saving so, by all means fire away. But just because he swallowed a bug and spoke for a hostile race (which Picard did too) they decided "Well he's done for, let's blow his head apart like a melon"

It was a stupid and tasteless scene that went way too far.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Picard was different, because after the Borg cube was destroyed he was immediately cut off and returned to his individual existence (and even before that, had shown evidence that he was able to do so, with his 'Sleep, Data' comment). If Picard had somehow continued to be 'Locutus', they may well have had to kill him.

As for Remmick? Killing him was self-defense, and that is an absolute right.

Besides, it seemed clear that there was something much more than a simple parasite controlling him - Picard and Riker could see Remmick's neck bulging and all the other parasites returning to him. So it was obvious that Remmick was somehow controlling them all.

 

[Trekkin]

I love DS9, but watching Quark, dressed in drag, get chased around a table by another Ferengi wanting to have sex with him is really the kind of thing that makes me second guess my own entertainment choices. So I don't watch "Profit and Lace" particularly often.

The space hippies on TOS are a close second.

I don't know if this is just a coincidence, but the station that runs Ds9 here tends to skip Profit and Lace. They run marathon blocks (the amount depends on how late the Friday night movie goes) and last time it was meant to show up, we had 'Valiant' and then straight on to 'Times Orphan.'

They probably have skipped or rearranged episodes before, but that's the first time I noticed.

 

[fireproof78]

The massive difference is that TRoi from the beginning was developed as a sexual person.

7of9, and T'Pol were not ever remotely sexual characters nor was there a need for them to be.

What gives you that impression?

I'm going to have to echo this question-T'Pol always struck me as being the love interest of Archer (Hoshie was never played that way) and the cat suit certainly did not help in dissuading me of that opinion.

7 of 9, I will admit a bias, as my introduction to her was by a friend of mine who thought she was the hottest woman in the world. Again, the cat suit does not help matters, in my opinion, especially when the rest of the crew are dressed in non-form fitting uniforms.

Troi never, ever, struck me as being treated a sexual person, at least from the audience perspective. From an in character perspective, it is difficult to judge because she really is not show in relationships that are not dysfunctional or broken up in some way. Her and Riker are estranged at first, and then she has the marriage with Wyatt in Haven. Then she becomes essentially the emotional abuse victim in another episode. And then there is the on again, off again thing with Worf.

That's a brief list but I never saw her as looking for a sexual relationship in the way that Riker was portrayed (see "Angel One" for the more grievous entry in that list, followed by "The Game.").

In any case, regardless of what the characters were meant to be, T'Pol and 7 of 9 were certainly designed to appeal to the sexual attractions of the audience.

 

[Trekkin]

Troi had a few one-off relationships, but they never went anywhere. More than a few of the guys turned out to be gigantic dicks. I can't really remember any of those stories having 'room' in their plot for the two to have run off and got it on.

When I think of the woman with the most sexual hook-ups in TNG, I think of Beverley. Even Yar had more confirmed 'on screen' sex than Troi.

EDIT: Unless we 're talking about Barclay's holographic 'goddess '.