Trek Vs Babylon 5?

[Methos]

pretty sure that subspace exists in hyperspace, in one of the episodes of season four Marcus says the Vorlons took a layer of 'hyperspace' and folded it in on itself to create a subspace pocket...

i'll check but i'm sure thats the quote...

with the distortions and tides in hyperspace though, i do agree that any warp would be dangerous, heading over warp 1 or 2 would be stupid for even the most experienced captain...

M

 

[Triple-F]

I’d view transporter (and even replicater) technology as the biggest edge a federation ship would have in the B5 ‘verse, especially as it appears they wouldn’t have shields to deal with on any/most indigenous vessels. How quickly either side could adapt would be important obviously. What period in time you set the story in is something not mentioned - the first ones don’t necessarily have to be there, and something like the Drakh or the View From The Gallery aliens could make interesting adversaries / allies.

 

[Methos]

yeah, transporter and replicator technology are a big bonus, as is shielding...

setting the story at the beginning of season 3 B5 timeline... so just as The Shadows are waking up lol

First chapter (broken up into posts because of character limit here) posted...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=157126

M

 

[Reverend]

pretty sure that subspace exists in hyperspace, in one of the episodes of season four Marcus says the Vorlons took a layer of 'hyperspace' and folded it in on itself to create a subspace pocket...

i'll check but i'm sure thats the quote...

with the distortions and tides in hyperspace though, i do agree that any warp would be dangerous, heading over warp 1 or 2 would be stupid for even the most experienced captain...

M

The quote is: "It's as if someone's taken a part of hyperspace and folded it on itself like a pocket. It's barely noticeable."

Nothing to do with subspace because that term doesn't exist in B5 terminology. And I still contest that *any* warp speed would be suicidal. Travelling so fast you overshoot the beacon, or can't course correct against the gravitational eddies quick enough to stay on the beacon and you're as good as dead. It's difficult enough at sub-light speeds.

I’d view transporter (and even replicater) technology as the biggest edge a federation ship would have in the B5 ‘verse, especially as it appears they wouldn’t have shields to deal with on any/most indigenous vessels. How quickly either side could adapt would be important obviously. What period in time you set the story in is something not mentioned - the first ones don’t necessarily have to be there, and something like the Drakh or the View From The Gallery aliens could make interesting adversaries / allies.

Oh definitely, but then they never really fully explored the full offensive potential of transporter technology in Trek. I mean why transport over a small commando team when you can just beam over an active warhead? Or better yet, transport out vital engine or weapons components.

As I said before though, I think the Minbari stealth technology might be a good counter. If all you can get out of a ship is it's silhouette then all you have to go on is a bearing. No range and no way to lock on to anything specific.

Another thing that should probably be taken into account is that sensor range in hyperspace is *severely* limited. Like something on the order of a few hundred kilometres at best. Getting into an engagement in hyperspace is rarely a good idea. I think Sheridan even said there hasn't been a single engagement that didn't turn into a disaster for both sides.

 

[Methos]

thats true... but that's counting on B5 sensors... some of the other races in B5 are quite happy to engage in Hyperspace battles and travel off the beacon completely...

like the Technomages, their ships map hyperspace over 20 times further than any earthforce or ISA ship during Crusade, even the Excalubur crew is surprised at the level the technomage sensors can pick up...

compare that with the resolution afforded in astrometrics labs, i'd say Trek sensors are far superior to most in B5, maybe not upto First One levels but pretty high above the young races

M

 

[Pauln6]

I went the other way and plopped Babylon 5 (among other things) into the Trek universe. I figured that you are allowed quite a bit of poetic licence to reconcile the technology since your story is essentially entering alternative universe territory in any event. However, I would agree that races who had jumgate tech would not need to invent warp drive.

I was thinking of portraying the jumpgates as a network of (wide) subspace corridors whose integrity maintained by the network of jumpgates and mapped out by beacons. I haven't decided on the exact mechanics yet because I'm making it up as I go and I wasn't planning on featuring the jumpgates until my third story. Still, I thought that Trek has already featured subspace corridors with the Borg network so why couldn't hyperspace just be that on a grander scale? I can foresee lots of ship in peril and exploration stories arising from exploring the nature of the jumpgates and the corridors.

 

[Reverend]

I think the best way to describe hyperspace in the B5 universe is that it's like a constantly shifting maze, shrouded in fog. Sensors are useless because there are no fixed natural points so there's no way to know how fast you're travelling or even if you're going in the direction you think you are. The beacons work like laser beams thought the "fog", or rather like a safely line in a blizzard that give ships something to follow. If they go off this path and "loose sight" of the beacon they quickly become lost. Simply reversing course won't work because the nature of hyperspace means that what was behind you a second ago, isn't behind you now. Gravity is constantly shifting so you can't even tell if you've turned around or even which direction you're pointed in.

First Ones and those with First One derived technology (including techno-mages) can travel further off the beacons because they're able to amplify much weaker signals through the interference, but they still need those beacons to get around. The reason we've seen the Shadows and the Vorlons travelling off the younger races' beacon network is because they have their own ones that work fine for them but the signals are so weak younger races can't detect them...a federation ship on the other hand probably could see both the Vorlon and Shadow beacon networks as well of whatever is left from the other remaining First Ones.

As for battles in hyperspace; small scale engagements are doable (mostly close range one-on-one fights) but anything involving more than a handful of ships is dangerous. Even the Shadows and the Vorlons kept to normal space when they brought their fleets in.

 

[MacLeod]

If I recall correctly from the TVM "In The Beginning" the mibar sensors had a side effect of disablying the Jump drive of the EA crusiers. So potentially a starfleet vessel could broadcast a signal that would disrupt the jump engines.

As for Minbari stealth, that works against B5 sensors. Perhaps the sensors used in Star Trek operate using more parts of the EM spectrum. So it might be rendered useless.

As for point defenses being able to stop a torpedeo, without FTL sensors how would it track a torpedeo travelling at high warp?

As for reflective hulls of the white star, does it work at all frequencies? Starfleet vessels are able to use a wide variety of frequencies for Phasers. It is possible one of them would work.

From what I remember of hyperspace tech in B5 sometimes it's fast others times it's not.

B5 was located in the Epsilon Eridani system circa 10.5 light years from Earth, If I remember correctly that was a 2 day jump to Earth. (Endgame)

40 Eridani a system circa 16.5 light years from Earth was a 4 days away (in TMP) buy the time of TNG we the faster drives it might be 3 days away or less.

so quick maths

B5: 10.5/2 = 5.25 ly/day
ST: 16.5/4 = 4.125 ly/day

 

[Reverend]

^I think JMS said that there isn't an exact correlation between distances/travel time in hyperspace and normal space. Add to that some shorter journeys are longer because they require travel in normal space between jump gates that aren't linked by beacons. Plus of course there's the distance from a given jump gate to the destination planet. For example, a starliner may spend two days in hyperspace travelling the dozen or so light years from B5 to Sol, but then may spend a further day (not counting refuleing and customs delays) in normal space crossing the relatively minuscule distance from the Io jumpgate to Earth orbit. This is where B5 may have an advantage as their ships can get around a solar system faster as warp drive is supposed to be dangerous to use inside a system.

Of course this is all invention by JMS to avoid painting himself into a corner and isn't even entierly consistent, but then neither is warp drive, so it's open to artistic interpretation. Both Trek and B5 ships can travel at the speed of plot.

 

[Sindatur]

There's many over on the Trek side of the Board who tout that Warp was slower in Voyager.

And, Of course, The "Plucked Chickens" (Whitestars) were also the size of plot, IRCC

 

[Gotham Central]

A note on ship sizes...

In Babylon 5 ships tend to be VERY large compared to Trek. However, very little of the volume is habitable. For most of those ships, the large size is taken up by the Jump Engines (remember, the White Star was unique in that it was highly unusual for a ship that small to be capable of generating a jump point).

Other things to consider, shields on Star Trek are NOT susceptible to projectile weapons. Lasers of the sort used on EA ships would have no effect at all on a Federation ship. TNG states quite explicitly that the navigational deflector by itself could deal with lasers. Its also worth noting that nuclear explosions are devastating on ALL ships in the B5 universe (a Minbari warship was destroyed by 2 nukes). Thus a M/A Warhead found on a federation torpedo could easily destroy most B5 ships. Conversely nuclear weapons have no effect on Federation shields.

 

[BlackFire3]

i don't have much to contribute here but if you're looking for help on fleet deployments and such, there's a fan film made by some people who pit star trek against babylon 5.

it's called "star wreck: the pirkening" admittingly it is a tongue in cheek thing where it's more a comedy then serious but most of the ship to ship combat was fairly well done. neither side stomped the other with a clear advantage, so things were kept pretty even. the only thing they flubbed on (which was intentional) was that they took away the trek ships shields, probably just to even things up more so.

if you need ideas on how the fleets might interact with each other in combat i'd say have a look at the film. and if you just want to see the ship battles, there's a few clips on youtube that just have that as well.

 

[Methos]

very interesting thoughts there... thanks guys...

now for part 2 of the question lol

lots of cool thoughts about how a Federation ship would do in the B5 universe, now for the flip side, how would a Borg sphere cope in the B5 universe?

M

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

I miss B-5

Recently rewatched my DVD collection., (Skipped all the nausiating hippee commune telepath crap in S5)

Without the Hippee telepath crap, B-5 in my opinion, is the second greatest Scifi space opera of all time behind TOS. To me it had nearly as much heart as TOS and the better TOS films. It is without a doubt the best written multiyear arc ever

I really miss B-5

That said B-5 has always had scale problems with their starships. I never bought that a Whitestar was Excelcior sized. Not like the anti NuTrek goofs who don't want the new E to be 1200 M or their peculiar reasons, but because the scale just does not work

If you look at the WhiteStar for example, that bump on the top front is their bridge which on the show is roughly the same size as a standard Trek bridge. SO it should be shrunken down to the point where that module matches the scale of a trek bridge

Same with the Excalibur. B-5 tech says it's like 4 miles long or something ridiculous like that. But the bridge half saucer module (again roughly the size of a Trek Bridge) would make the ship more accurate at say 1400 M. Still Huge obviously

I could go on with the size of the Portholes on the hulls of various Capital ships. The size of a semitruck in comparison to the Shadowcrab being dug out on Mars.
The size of fighters in comparison to the Launch bay on the Omega Battleships

I love B-5 tech but outside of the B4 and 5 station the sizes are wildly off

Who would win in a fight?? Well Shatner Kirk always wins but sheridan would give him a run for the money and could easily take any one else but Shatner Kirk. Sisco would give him a hell of a fight but everyone else is toast.

Would love to see a B-5 breaching pod crashing through the Next Genny kidergartens that they apparently have on their capital warships

Borg would last two minutes in B-5 world because Sheridan would order the nanites to be used wipe them out without hesitation as would have Kirk in a similar position

 

[Reverend]

very interesting thoughts there... thanks guys...

now for part 2 of the question lol

lots of cool thoughts about how a Federation ship would do in the B5 universe, now for the flip side, how would a Borg sphere cope in the B5 universe?

M

Well firstly, after they've gotten their hands on a jump drive they'd probably ignore any Earth, Narn and most League ships. Too primitive for assimilation.

They'd jump all over the Minbari and probably the Abbai and Hyach too. Once they find out about it they'd probably make a beeline for Vorlon territory. It takes up a huge swath of the galaxy and it's borders are well known to just about every space faring race. I suspect they they'd come limping back with their tail between their legs in very short order. Vorlons are *millions* of years ahead and probably have a lot more up their sleeves than we've ever seen. Same if they go after any Shadow strong points. Drakh may be easier game, but difficult to find in that time period.

If you want to move the action to B5 then the obvious motivation for the Borg would be the Great Machine. They'd probably ignore the station and go straight for Epsilon 3.

 

[Methos]

interesting thoughts...

do wonder though, The Shadow's are known for having a lot of ships buried in inhospitable worlds around the galaxy at that time period... what would the outcome of a shadow ship being assimilated be?

M

 

[MacLeod]

There's many over on the Trek side of the Board who tout that Warp was slower in Voyager.

And, Of course, The "Plucked Chickens" (Whitestars) were also the size of plot, IRCC

Ignoring Plot speed which most shows use it was.

Earth to Vulcan is a trip of 16.5 light years. A trip of 4 days according to TMP. Though that was part of a shakedown cruise so it might have been usually slightly faster.

Simply Maths is a speed of 4.125ly per day. Allowing for improements if we say 5ly per day by the time of VOY

70 000 / 5 = 14 000 days or just over 38 years.

Even going back to the TMP scale it comes to

16 970 days (give or take an hour) or 46.5 years.

For info: Assuming 1000ly per year travel it would put Voyager's speed at around 2.74ly per day. Less than a Parsec per day.


But that wouldn't suit the needs of the plot. so plot speed it is (i.e. however fast or slow we need for this episode)