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Trek firsts: Sisko v Janeway

Gotham Central

Vice Admiral
Admiral
I've always been rather facinated by the divergent reactions to Star Trek's first two non-white male leading characters.

It seems as if, in terms of firsts, both producer thinking and fan reaction seemed to obsess more over Janeway as the first woman than Sisko as the first person of color.

For instance, the writers and producers on DS9 decided pretty early on to simply create a lead without stressing too much over his ethnicity. They knew they wanted a black lead b ut they did not go out of their way to dramatically craft an "ethnic" character. Thus Sisko's arrival was met with much less fan fare and stress. No one ever really freaked out that somehow Sisko's behaviour would reflect positively or negatively on minorities (though in fairness, Avery Brooks did have a few things to say about ensuring that the depiction of Sisko's relationship with his son and family were positive and healthy). Ultimately, Sisko was largely unencumbered by restraints on the character. He was a minority, but was allowed to be both the angry black man when warranted, and the cool badass leader. He was allowed to simply be a wide array of things within the context of the story. He was devoted father, war time leader, politician, confidant/advisor/mentor, religious icon, god like being and and vengeful idealogue.

Thus my love of the character had absolutely nothing to do with his race, and nothing to do with seeing someone like me in the leading role. Instead I could love the character because he was just a really good well written character.

As a side note, very little fuss was made over the fact that both his first and second officers were women.


Unlike Sisko, EVERYONE seemed to make a big deal over the fact that Janeway was the first female lead. Every aspect of the character was was filtered through the lens of trying to have an appropriate female character. Janeway was never allowed to simply be a good character. From the word go, she was held up as some sort of symbol. As a result, the character was never consistently written and her actions were always limited. Part of the Problem was Jerri Taylor, who saw it as some sort of sacred duty to ensure that the first woman was portrayed "properly." She could never be wrong, she could not have relationships (something that Mulgrew seemed to buy into) and she had to be the smartest person in the room. Conversely NONE of the male characters were allowed to stand up to her or agressively oppose her positions.

Beyond the producers, many female fans reacted to her as a symbol. To this day criticism and praise for the character are framed in the context of gender.

What do you think accounts for the radically different approaches two these two characters?
 
I've always been rather facinated by the divergent reactions to Star Trek's first two non-white male leading characters.

It seems as if, in terms of firsts, both producer thinking and fan reaction seemed to obsess more over Janeway as the first woman than Sisko as the first person of color.

For instance, the writers and producers on DS9 decided pretty early on to simply create a lead without stressing too much over his ethnicity. They knew they wanted a black lead b ut they did not go out of their way to dramatically craft an "ethnic" character.
They didn't, actually. Sisko was not conceived as a black person or any specific ethnicity, and actors of all ethnicities (including Siddig El Fadil) auditioned and were considered for the part.


Thus Sisko's arrival was met with much less fan fare and stress. No one ever really freaked out that somehow Sisko's behaviour would reflect positively or negatively on minorities (though in fairness, Avery Brooks did have a few things to say about ensuring that the depiction of Sisko's relationship with his son and family were positive and healthy). Ultimately, Sisko was largely unencumbered by restraints on the character. He was a minority, but was allowed to be both the angry black man when warranted, and the cool badass leader. He was allowed to simply be a wide array of things within the context of the story. He was devoted father, war time leader, politician, confidant/advisor/mentor, religious icon, god like being and and vengeful idealogue.

Thus my love of the character had absolutely nothing to do with his race, and nothing to do with seeing someone like me in the leading role. Instead I could love the character because he was just a really good well written character.

As a side note, very little fuss was made over the fact that both his first and second officers were women.


Unlike Sisko, EVERYONE seemed to make a big deal over the fact that Janeway was the first female lead. Every aspect of the character was was filtered through the lens of trying to have an appropriate female character. Janeway was never allowed to simply be a good character. From the word go, she was held up as some sort of symbol. As a result, the character was never consistently written and her actions were always limited. Part of the Problem was Jerri Taylor, who saw it as some sort of sacred duty to ensure that the first woman was portrayed "properly." She could never be wrong, she could not have relationships (something that Mulgrew seemed to buy into) and she had to be the smartest person in the room. Conversely NONE of the male characters were allowed to stand up to her or agressively oppose her positions.

Beyond the producers, many female fans reacted to her as a symbol. To this day criticism and praise for the character are framed in the context of gender.
You've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the problem with the character of Janeway. It is as if Voyager producers thought that her gender was her defining characteristic, so she didn't need any other defining characteristics. I like Kate Mulgrew, but the character was inconsitently written and bland: I could tell you exactly what kind of captain/commander Kirk, Picard or Sisko were, but I really don't know what kind of captain Janeway was supposed to be. Is she a follower of the rules, or a pragmatist who doesn't mind breaking them when she needs to? Is she a captain who would do anything to protect her crew, or one who would stick to the Prime Directive no matter what, even if it puts her crew in danger? I really can't tell.

In addition, I was so annoyed when they made Q point out her gender in "Death Wish"...something about her being able to have so much authority while not losing her femininity - in other words, a cliche line that could've come straight out of some review or article about "strong female characters" on TV (because, of course, it is sooooo unusual for a woman to be strong, and you just have to lose your femininity the moment you're given command of a ship or other position of authority :rolleyes: ). Female captains, women in commanding positions, should not be anything unusual in 24th century Starfleet, and I have no idea why the hell should the Q Continuum be sexist and have gender roles akin to Earth of several centuries before. :vulcan:

DS9 did it so much better - they had strong female characters without beating everyone over the head with the fact that, oh gosh, they are women in command positions! They were allowed to actually be interesting and flawed, to have a dark side, to not always be right, and even - gasp! - to have romantic relationships. IMO, DS9 had the best cast of female characters out of any Star Trek show, with Kira and Dax, plus they great recurring villains in Kai Winn and Female Founder (60-something actresses in major non-stereotypical roles - that is something you rarely get to see on TV). Dax's gender was stressed only to emphasize the contrast between her physical femaleness (or whatever the right word is) and her mental androgyny; but nobody in the show ever acted like Kira being a tough, kickass woman was something extraordinary. I sometimes get annoyed with all the accolades that Voyager gets for having the 'first female lead' in Trek and making the breakthrough in gender politics. OK, yes, having a female captain as a main character and first billed was something new, but Kira was really as much a lead as Sisko was, if you look at the storylines and screentime and the importance of her role, and she was IMO a much better, more developed and rounded character than Janeway.
 
Gotham Central:

Some interesting ideas. Now, Avery Brooks and some of the writers did do subtle things to stress Sisko's ethnicity -- his collection of Yoruba masks, for example. And making him from New Orleans gave him a "spicier" personality (pun intended) than Kirk or Picard, but still made him uniquely American.

Of course, Far Beyond the Stars is the only ep where the issue of racial strife is truly touched on in a significant way. It wasn't the most heavy-handed way, either, as Sisko inhabits the world of someone else who may or may not be the figment of his imagination.

They kind of did that with Janeway, to a more limited degree. What I do find interesting is the character with which she had the most conflict with was another woman, keying into the stereotype of women being unable to get along with each other. Of course, the conflict between Janeway and Seven was more basic, one of human values versus machine qualities, a dichotomy often examined in ST.

I agree there should've been more conflict between her and the other male characters where they should've been proven right, and she, wrong. They missed a number of golden opportunities with Chakotay, for example, where he should have been the strong advocate for a non-Starfleet way of dong things. We see some of that in Scorpion, but not enough throughout the series.

Red Ranger
 
Well, DevilEyes has said what I wanted to say, just better than I could say it. Particularly about Janeway's lack of consistency. I can't even say I hate the character. In a way, that would be a step up, because I'm not sure how I DO feel about her because she feels like a wildly different character from one portrayal to another. Where other characters such as the doctor or Sisko grow and develop, Janeway's personality/character randomly mutate from what we last saw as the script requires.
 
I agree there should've been more conflict between her and the other male characters where they should've been proven right, and she, wrong. They missed a number of golden opportunities with Chakotay, for example, where he should have been the strong advocate for a non-Starfleet way of dong things. We see some of that in Scorpion, but not enough throughout the series.

It's funny reading this as I read the original post out to my girlfriend, then said the same thing before reading the replies :lol:

It's one of the things I feel they wimped out on. Janeway should have stuck to a by the book captain role and they should ave used Chakotay to think outside the box and oppose him.

They'd both have wins and losses, but it'd generate some conflict between them, give Janeway a less erratic role and prevent Chakotay becoming the new Worf.
 
There was that one episode where Sisko wouldn't go to Vic Fontaine's, because 'they didn't like my people back then,' or something or other. I thought that was pretty out of character and ridiculous. I liked how it wasn't a big deal normally, because it isn't a big deal he's physically different. I don't think it would be a big issue to someone from 24th Century.

I never paid attention to Janeway. I thought she was annoying.
 
There was that one episode where Sisko wouldn't go to Vic Fontaine's, because 'they didn't like my people back then,' or something or other. I thought that was pretty out of character and ridiculous. I liked how it wasn't a big deal normally, because it isn't a big deal he's physically different. I don't think it would be a big issue to someone from 24th Century.
He objected to the holoprogram because it was unrealistic, and have Kassidy a lesson in history, that black people would not have been welcome in a 1960s Las Vegas casino, and that the program is presenting history in a wrong way. Kassidy managed to change his mind by replying that the program shows things as they should have been, instead of what they were like. It sounded like they used to opportunity to answer a question someone watching the show might have.
 
There was that one episode where Sisko wouldn't go to Vic Fontaine's, because 'they didn't like my people back then,' or something or other. I thought that was pretty out of character and ridiculous. I liked how it wasn't a big deal normally, because it isn't a big deal he's physically different. I don't think it would be a big issue to someone from 24th Century.
He objected to the holoprogram because it was unrealistic, and have Kassidy a lesson in history, that black people would not have been welcome in a 1960s Las Vegas casino, and that the program is presenting history in a wrong way. Kassidy managed to change his mind by replying that the program shows things as they should have been, instead of what they were like. It sounded like they used to opportunity to answer a question someone watching the show might have.

I also thought that Sisko's experiences through the eyes of Benny Russel made him more cognizant of what people had to go through when racism was so much more accepted.
 
In addition, I was so annoyed when they made Q point out her gender in "Death Wish"...something about her being able to have so much authority while not losing her femininity - in other words, a cliche line that could've come straight out of some review or article about "strong female characters" on TV (because, of course, it is sooooo unusual for a woman to be strong, and you just have to lose your femininity the moment you're given command of a ship or other position of authority :rolleyes: ). Female captains, women in commanding positions, should not be anything unusual in 24th century Starfleet, and I have no idea why the hell should the Q Continuum be sexist and have gender roles akin to Earth of several centuries before. :vulcan:

I didn't see that as revealing a sexist perspective/attitude...I thought it was more just Q ineptly hitting on her, trying to get her to like him by sucking up to her. Clearly, despite his omnipotence, he doesn't know much about courting a woman. :cool: I guess it's open to either interpretation, and both interpretations are credible.
 
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