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Trek and Terrorism

You can skip Extinction, North Star (Trek's Firefly), Doctor's Orders (Same episode a "One" on Voyager) and Hatchery. They stall the action of the story.

North Star actually has very little to do with Firefly. If anything, the episode Rajiin is more Firefly-like, since its plot very closely parallels the Firefly episode Our Mrs. Reynolds, though admittedly it wasn't even that original a concept when Firefly did it either. But they did do it better.
 
There are always rules in war. There are certain lines you just don't cross. Ever.

What an odd claim. In real wars, when something truly appalling in the field of killing or hurting humans is invented, everybody's reaction is rather the opposite, namely "Now why didn't we invent that first?". Say, when tanks, aerial bombing, combat gas and flamethrowers were introduced in WWI, they instantly became an accepted or at least coveted part of everybody's arsenal. And out of the four, three remain in very active use (flamethrowers see surprisingly little action nowadays).

Lines are always being crossed, which makes it all the easier to cross more lines. Every now and then, there can be some token backpedaling just to show how easily the boundaries move. There are periods in history when hurting and disemboweling of civilians is frowned upon, but those are very brief ones.

War may be a game on occasion, but it's never a fair one. What would be the point of playing fair?

Timo Saloniemi
 
.
I don't think the [snip] Maqui were terrrorists.
The Maquis poisoned a Cardassian planet with a civilian population.

Actually, yes it did. Not only was the DMZ actually part of Federation territory to begin with ...
The impression I receive was the it was neither Federation nor Cardassian territory, but rather contested space inbetween the two that both wanted to obtain for themselves. After fight for years to get the entire area, they finally decided to divide it between them.

Who had colonized a planet outside of the Federation.

If I relocate to a foreign county (retaining my American citizenship), some American laws would still apply to me, but some would not, owing to me not being inside America.

Journey's End was not a Maquis colony
Actually, yes, it was.
Not at the time of the episode though.

:)


I thought the territory was in dispute, not officially outside of Federation territory? The whole "disputed territory" thing was pretty nonsensical though, and an example of writers getting too stuck on analagous thinking to consider how a scenario applies in a sci-fi setting.

The distance between planets and star systems is vast, it shouldn't be that hard to keep borders distinct, we're not talking a matter of a few miles or kilometers like on Earth.

At any rate, outside of Federation jurisdiction or not, the Maquis were given the choice to peacefully re-locate rather easily, and chose to stay in as disputed area under hostile rule. I don't see how that makes them particularly sympathetic, though of course they still have a right to defend themselves.
 
War may be a game on occasion, but it's never a fair one. What would be the point of playing fair?

Tell me something. In the parallel universe you came from, are there such things as war crimes? Because here, there are.
At the same time though, you have to ask who is going to punish the offenders?
Looking at current events

Who is going to bring the Assad Regime in Syria to answer for their war crimes (including using sarin gas) against his own people?

Who is going to hold Russia and the Ukrainian Separatists accountable for Malaysian passenger plane that was shot down last month?

Who is going to hold Hamas accountable for the thousands of rockets they've launched in to Israel? An unprovoked attack which resulted in thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties; when Israel retaliated with their own military.

You can accuse a group of people or a nation of war crimes, crimes against humanity, mass murder. However without some other party to bring the offenders to justice; there will never be any retribution. Sadaam Hussein gassed 10-15,000 of his own people in 1988, and no one punished him for it. It was condemned by the international community, but there was no action taken against Saddam for it.
 
That it is just one word is telling enough: there hasn't been a similar show since, and there never was one quite like that before.

Nürnberg is an excellent example of there being no such thing as prosecution of war crimes anyway. The Allies won, so they nailed Germany for planning and preparing an unlawful attack against Norway - a crime they themselves were equally guilty of. And never mind those Allied invasions that were concluded, even if the Nazis got to Norway first. Fundamentally, neither cruelty nor mass murder was on trial there: nothing was established about the unlawfulness of aerial terror-bombing.

Nations are beasts, and war is hell. Any pretense otherwise is just war of another sort, a propaganda game where being holier than thou is another weapon of terror.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Nuremberg.
It was only through the allied victory and occupation of Germany that we gained access to the war criminal.

Saddam Hussein would never have seen the inside of a court room without the coalition invasion of Iraq.

So, Bashar al-Assad will be brought to trial how?

:)
 
^ One word: Nuremberg.
Which came after a long and bloody war. Total casualties of WWII (civilian and military) is estimated around 50-60 million. As for the trial itself, only 24 people were tried for crimes they were accused. 6 years of war, 50 million dead and only 24 Nazi officers and regime members are brought to justice. Some were executed, others sentenced to terms in prison and a few were acquitted. That is a tragedy.

The US and other European Nations are not going to start a war with Russia over one passanger plane being shot down.

No one country wants to go to war with Syria over there crimes against humanity. The UN has voted several times to do something about the humanitarian crisis there but Russia and China (2 of the 5 members of the UN's security council) have vetoed any attempt to intervene.

Egypt has been trying to broker a peace deal between Israel and Gaza, but Hamas keeps reneging on the agreements and continues to instigate violence. Leaving the innocent people in Gaza to suffer.



That it is just one word is telling enough: there hasn't been a similar show since, and there never was one quite like that before.

Nürnberg is an excellent example of there being no such thing as prosecution of war crimes anyway. The Allies won, so they nailed Germany for planning and preparing an unlawful attack against Norway - a crime they themselves were equally guilty of. And never mind those Allied invasions that were concluded, even if the Nazis got to Norway first. Fundamentally, neither cruelty nor mass murder was on trial there: nothing was established about the unlawfulness of aerial terror-bombing.

Nations are beasts, and war is hell. Any pretense otherwise is just war of another sort, a propaganda game where being holier than thou is another weapon of terror.

Timo Saloniemi
QFT

Nuremberg.
It was only through the allied victory and occupation of Germany that we gained access to the war criminal.

Saddam Hussein would never have seen the inside of a court room without the coalition invasion of Iraq.


So, Bashar al-Assad will be brought to trial how?

:)
@ Bold
Remeber in 2003 when George W. Bush (leader of the US at the time) gave an address to the nation and to the world? Saying that Saddam (the leader of another sovereign nation) and his sons has 24 hours to leave Iraq or there would be war. Well Saddam didn't leave (why should he leave his own country) and the US has been engaged in Iraq for more than a decade.

You're right. Saddam would've never faced trial had the US not invaded Iraq.
An invasion which has killed 4,500 US troops, wounded 100,000 more and claimed the lives of an estimate 120,000 Iraqi civilians.
 
there have been many oppressed groups throughout Earth's history that haven't turned to mass terrorism and murder of innocents: Blacks in the US during slavery or Jim Crow, American Indians in the 19th century, Jews in Europe for a number of different periods, Gypsies, etc.

Your recollection of history is rather over-rosy.

American Indians in the 19th century and before most certainly fought back against white settlement frequently, tenaciously, sometimes effectively and very often unmercifully; the "Indian massacre" and scalping, staples of the movie and television Western, were real things. It's just that the pop culture left out the inconvenient details that those massacres were often responses to white settler massacres of the Natives and that scalping in fact was a European innovation that the natives adopted in retaliation.

That's a story repeated in anti-colonial struggles across the planet; Indian Mutiny, Boxer Rebellion, Mau Mau Revolt, various Irish rebellions and conflicts, you name it. And if the term "terrorist" had existed to be lobbed at those resistance groups in those times you can be 100% sure that it would have been, just as it was at the ANC and Umkhonto we Sizwe in South Africa. And of course many of those groups really were bloody and unmerciful and less than scrupulous about the fates of innocents (umKhonto we Sizwe not excepted, though they were more careful and restrained than the likes of, say, the Mau Maus)... sometimes because their enemy was also unmerciful and they were fighting for survival, sometimes because they were opportunists for whom the fight against colonialism was an excuse to augment their own power, more often a mixture of both.

Of course groups that were so massively outgunned and repressed that they could face wholesale lynching or expulsion for simply spitting on the sidewalk at the wrong time were less prone to violent resistance; although it's actually a fallacy that Blacks never fought back during slavery, there was never large-scale uprising for that reason, in large part because the example of Haiti had so terrorized slave-holders in the Western hemisphere that they cracked down extra-hard to prevent its repetition. But that's not necessarily because they were more innately virtuous or less proud than any other groups, it's because their circumstances were different. And often when their circumstances were changed -- the Americo-Liberians in West Africa, the Zionists in the Middle East, both of whom were populations essentially compelled to hew out their own states on account of being largely unwanted elsewhere -- they in fact did not hesitate to employ forms of violence that could be labelled "terrorism."

There are noteworthy exceptions, but they're context-dependent and often different from popular imagining. Take the holy trinity of modern Princes of Peace who are now routinely brought up in this context:

- Gandhi and satyagraha in India, for example, happened for two major reasons (over and above Gandhi's personal faith and morality): one, that Gandhi clearly perceived that violent overthrow of the colonial order could easily lead to catastrophic communal violence afterwards (which happened anyway, but at least he tried his level best to prevent it); two, he understood that due to the tiny British presence in the country, a nonviolent movement with sufficient cohesion was capable of simply shutting the whole country down, which really was the most devastating weapon in his arsenal.

- Martin Luther King used similar methods to exploit a different weapon, the power of mass media to expose and embarrass injustice and move constituencies both internationally and domestically into support of the Civil Rights Movement.

- Nelson Mandela, now remembered for reconciliation and understanding -- which were indeed very crucial parts of his legacy -- also embraced "armed struggle," labelled "terrorism" by his enemies, and never renounced it. For very good reasons, including that during the negotiations leading to the end of Apartheid, the Nationalist government tried to use Buthelezi's Inkatha Freedom Party as a "third force" to weaken the ANC's bargaining position by killing its supporters en masse. Tens of thousands of people died in the ensuing violence, largely forgotten in the West today and written out of the popular Mandela story (which now is about Morgan Freeman ending apartheid by supporting rugby :p).

Of course it's right to oppose communal violence and bombing in an ideal world, but it's not right to elide the reality that many of these struggles don't take place in an ideal world. "Terrorism" is an epithet that tends to be conveniently thrown at "freedom fighters" who are attacking one's own side, whether that side is right or wrong, and to demonize the enemy in order not to have to think about the real sources and consequences of conflict. It's still common to encounter Brits who use language about the Nazis to damn the IRA / PIRA during the Troubles while conveniently forgetting that that particular round of violence was started and usually escalated by Loyalist militia groups and by the British military. That kind of blind spot persists to this day; which is not an excuse for groups like ISIS or Boko Haram, which are genuinely awful, it's just a reminder that evaluating their existence and actions without context is stupid and useless.

Trek, and especially DS9, was absolutely right to take a broader and more nuanced view than that.
 
On the other hand, war is always hell. If your cause actually is just, is it really so wrong to just go for the jugular and try to get it over with sooner rather than later? For that matter, if your cause actually is just, is your distaste for certain methods of killing people in comparison to other methods of killing people really worth certain defeat?

There are always rules in war. There are certain lines you just don't cross. Ever.

If your "cause" requires that you do so, then you don't deserve to win.

Honestly, I sympathize with your position, but there are times when it just isn't realistic. If you're the one taking the brunt of the guy who ignores all the rules and no one else is willing to step in and stop him the right way, what choice do you have? Die with honor? You do what you have to do to defend yourself.
 
It's also quite possible that you are being savaged by a guy who sticks to all the rules because he can afford to (heck, he may have invented those rules exactly because they cost him nothing extra). Burning of babies is not an eye-for-eye tactic, it's asymmetric warfare that allows the underdog to hold his own against a conventionally fighting, pious enemy.

In the Trek examples of terrorism as a military tactic, only the Cardassian-Bajoran conflict involved "retaliatory" use. The Ansata terror-bombed without being terror-bombed or otherwise savaged themselves (they felt "politically oppressed"), but the Cardassians raided and executed while the Bajorans assassinated and sabotaged. Then again, this may be simply because the pre-DS9 conflict was a prolonged one, and a potentially initially "civilized" struggle had simply grown uglier. In any case, the occupation of Bajor no longer was asymmetric warfare as such: it was terror on both sides, with essentially zero conventional warrior-against-warrior combat.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's also quite possible that you are being savaged by a guy who sticks to all the rules because he can afford to (heck, he may have invented those rules exactly because they cost him nothing extra). Burning of babies is not an eye-for-eye tactic, it's asymmetric warfare that allows the underdog to hold his own against a conventionally fighting, pious enemy.

Good point.
 
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