T'Pol's emotions opposed to Spock's

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

I'm not saying he was an adult. IIRC he was a child. My VOY is even weaker than my DS9. I probably saw the episode once. I'm basing usually being an adult when completely purge one's emotions on Spock in TMP going through Kolinahr. Though I don't think young Tuvok was sent to Kolinahr, just some sort of emotional control boot camp.

Tuvok was an adolescent. You can read about the episode here. An "emotional control boot camp" is an apt description, although I think young Tuvok was the only one subjected to it then and there. Kolinahr is, as you say, a different matter entirely.

 

[Trekkin]

Tell that to JJ Abrams

Tell that to DC Fontana.

 

[eyeresist]

I don't think he was bullied as a child though, that's something human children do, not Vulcan.

Spock being bullied as a child was shown not only in ST09 but also way back in an ep of TAS.
Watch this from 2:56 -

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But when you see how Tuvok is nonplussed by unruly children even though he's raised a few of his own, you may conclude that even at a very young age, Vulcan children are already poised and quite reasonable.

Relative to humans, maybe. Vulcan bullying is more intellectual.

Remember the episode "In The Flesh". Archer says "It's Pon Farr Night at the Vulcan Nightclub" or something like that? Why would Vulcans celebrate Pon Farr when it's something they're supposed to be ashamed of and keep a secret. It doesn't make any sense.

Wow, I had to look that up. First of all, that's not the "real" Archer.
Second, that scene took place in an alien recreation of Starfleet academy. No reason to expect it to be completely accurate to the real thing.

I actually think the best part of that episode for me was the dressing down Archer gave Reed and Hayes for their ridiculous macho "posturing"

Their fight was pretty funny for its over the top nature.
The spherebuilder probe was also intriguing.
I think Harbinger would be a great episode if not for Trip/T'Pol.

 

[locutus101]

Tell that to JJ Abrams

I had no idea JJ Abrams was bullied by Vulcans as a child...

 

[locutus101]

...CWow, I had to look that up. First of all, that's not the "real" Archer.
Second, that scene took place in an alien recreation of Starfleet academy. No reason to expect it to be completely accurate to the real thing....

I don't agree. 8472's were using this facility to become spies in the real Starfleet academy. That kind of statement if not true could easily betray someone as being a fake. She wouldn't have said it if it weren't true.

 

[eyeresist]

I don't agree. 8472's were using this facility to become spies in the real Starfleet academy. That kind of statement if not true could easily betray someone as being a fake.

So? They are obviously relying on second hand information. They wouldn't find out it was wrong until they were actually on Earth.

 

[locutus101]

So? They are obviously relying on second hand information. They wouldn't find out it was wrong until they were actually on Earth.

It's not a good idea to feed your spies made up crap that they may blurt out later at a bad time.

Also, if it was second hand then it was precise enough as Boothby for example looked and sounded like the real McCoy.

 

[Nyotarules]

As a half-breed, Spock (the real Spock, not the abomination that has his name in the recent movies) strove to live up to the Vulcan ideal. He felt he had to be more Vulcan than a Vulcan in order to be accepted as one. Sure he's slipped a few times, but by and large he goes out of his way to be the poster child of his father's people.

I mean, of all the Vulcans we've ever seen (at least the ones that come to mind; there may be an outlier or two) with the possible exception of T'Pau, they've all been rather emotional or illogical. Even Sarek decided to marry a human woman and breed with her. That alone makes his attitudes towards Spock in his first appearance both illogical and emotional in that he's being a colossal hypocrite.

TLDR: Spock works harder at being a Vulcan.

Which happens a lot with folks who follow conservative philosophies be it political or religious. Even T'Pau fell short; how logical is it to show prejudice to humans in Amok Time and the ENT episode where she was willing to endanger Archer to get Surak's katra. No wonder the old dude refused to budge from Archer's mind. Even Spock's desire to be more Vulcan than Vulcan was illogical and based on Sarek's familial pressure. He wanted to deny a part of himself to please his dad. Logical much? Methinks not.

 

[Nyotarules]

I don't think he was bullied as a child though, that's something human children do, not Vulcan.

Considering Vulcan children are not born 'paragons of virtue' then I can see them reflecting the prejudices of their parents. When one is a racial minority as Spock is, its part of living, some of the racial majority are assholes and some treat you decently.

 

[Nyotarules]

Spock said (in episode Dagger of the mind) that because they have disposed of emotion there is no need of violence. Extending this then we could assume that there's no bullying among Vulcan children because there is no emotion. But, is this true? Are Vulcans born already with the ability of extremely controlling their emotion? Would something like this not need training? Which means that Vulcan children might be emotional and some could be bullies? It's a possibility. Especially if we consider that Romulans and Vulcans are genetically closely related, and that Romulans are emotional and many of them are violent. Wouldn't it be logical then to assume that Vulcan children are also emotional but then become less so with age, training and cultural/social rules?
Greg Cox is not the only one interpreting that Spock was bullied as a child by the other full blooded Vulcan kids. The 2009 movie writers also think the same (I know, I know, a lot of people think the Kelvin timeline movies don't carry weight but....)

Spock's bullying was mentioned by Amanda in Journey to Babel and shown in Yesteryear. As for Dagger of the mind considering how inconsistent canon is I would take that statement as hyberbole from Spock.

 

[Nyotarules]

Fans err when they believe being logical is the same as being moral. Doing the right thing is not always logical. It might seem logical for the state to sexually sterilise people who cannot afford to have children, but such an action is morally repugnant

 

[Nyotarules]

Why?

Their embracing of logic and the shunning of emotion is more of a religion than a physiological fact. That's been made abundantly clear over the years.

If anything, it's the Romulans that undermine the Vulcan way of life. They seem pretty functional as a people. Cruel and cunning, sure, but hardly bloodthirsty barbarians who main and murder because they can't control their emotions.

Why?

Their embracing of logic and the shunning of emotion is more of a religion than a physiological fact. That's been made abundantly clear over the years.

If anything, it's the Romulans that undermine the Vulcan way of life. They seem pretty functional as a people. Cruel and cunning, sure, but hardly bloodthirsty barbarians who main and murder because they can't control their emotions.

My theory - The Vulcan perception of their ancestors is clouded by time. Compared to today our ancestors seem like barbarians in comparison to us (slavery, persecution, extreme xenophobia, extreme tribalism, 100 year wars, throwing people to lions, feudal system, burning widows, sharia law etc) and our 23rd century descendants might look at us the same way. If their (Vulcans) nuclear war almost wiped them out, I assume most of their population was destroyed. If we had a world war that wiped out billions and not 'mere' millions we would look like barbaric savages as well.

 

[locutus101]

Considering Vulcan children are not born 'paragons of virtue' then I can see them reflecting the prejudices of their parents. When one is a racial minority as Spock is, its part of living, some of the racial majority are assholes and some treat you decently.

The problem is that the Vulcan children in the movie were indistinguishable from human children. That's a bit of a let down. Why bother creating an alien species if they're eventually going to behave exactly like humans?

 

[Nyotarules]

The problem is that the Vulcan children in the movie were indistinguishable from human children. That's a bit of a let down. Why bother creating an alien species if they're eventually going to behave exactly like humans?

All Star trek aliens behave like humans, the only ability we don't have is telepathy. Humans real characteristics are exaggerated in fictional aliens.

 

[locutus101]

All Star trek aliens behave like humans, the only ability we don't have is telepathy. Humans real characteristics are exaggerated in fictional aliens.

Don't you think it would be better if aliens were consistent and behaved like aliens. Instead of having T'pol hugging Archer in the last episode? It would be like the original Spock hugging the original nurse Chapel. Yet T'pol was supposed to belong to an earlier time.

 

[Nyotarules]

Don't you think it would be better if aliens were consistent and behaved like aliens. Instead of having T'pol hugging Archer in the last episode? It would be like the original Spock hugging the original nurse Chapel. Yet T'pol was supposed to belong to an earlier time.

Archer hugged T'Pol and from what I recall she stiffly hugged him back. In T'Pol's era Vulcan had just had their own version of the Reformation, they are not going to change overnight. Spock had his own unVulcan like moment in Amok Time, and in ST TMP, he came to appreciate the emotional side of his nature and stop denying it. And what does 'behave like aliens' mean anyway, since they are fictional characters written by humans.

 

[locutus101]

Archer hugged T'Pol and from what I recall she stiffly hugged him back. In T'Pol's era Vulcan had just had their own version of the Reformation, they are not going to change overnight. Spock had his own unVulcan like moment in Amok Time, and in ST TMP, he came to appreciate the emotional side of his nature and stop denying it. And what does 'behave like aliens' mean anyway, since they are fictional characters written by humans.

In the last episode there was very little left of Vulcan behavior in T'pol. At least original Spock remained stiff like a Vulcan up until the last of the post TOS movies.

 

[Nyotarules]

In the last episode there was very little left of Vulcan behavior in T'pol. At least original Spock remained stiff like a Vulcan up until the last of the post TOS movies.

Spock cried in TMP
Spock was pissed at Valeris in TUC
If you want to call that stiff like a Vulcan then T'Pol is as Vulcan as Spock. And expecting all beings from one species to reflect the same behaviour is not logical lol

 

[Nerys Myk]

Don't you think it would be better if aliens were consistent and behaved like aliens. Instead of having T'pol hugging Archer in the last episode? It would be like the original Spock hugging the original nurse Chapel. Yet T'pol was supposed to belong to an earlier time.

You need to watch more TOS. Especially the Spock-centric episodes. At the end of Amok Time, Spock goes in for a BroHug with Kirk and gives a goofy smile before switching back to being stoic. Kirk and McCoy get a chuckle out of it
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x01/amoktime0583.jpg
You'll find other hints of and outright expressions of emotion through out the. series.

 

[locutus101]

Spock cried in TMP
Spock was pissed at Valeris in TUC
If you want to call that stiff like a Vulcan then T'Pol is as Vulcan as Spock. And expecting all beings from one species to reflect the same behaviour is not logical lol

Well, I guess it's very much a matter of perspective.