T'Pol's emotions opposed to Spock's

[locutus101]

Sarek provided all the bullying needed to justify Spock's desire to live up to the Vulcan ideal.

Yes, that I can agree with.

 

[T'Nara]

I don't think he was bullied as a child though, that's something human children do, not Vulcan.

Spock said (in episode Dagger of the mind) that because they have disposed of emotion there is no need of violence. Extending this then we could assume that there's no bullying among Vulcan children because there is no emotion. But, is this true? Are Vulcans born already with the ability of extremely controlling their emotion? Would something like this not need training? Which means that Vulcan children might be emotional and some could be bullies? It's a possibility. Especially if we consider that Romulans and Vulcans are genetically closely related, and that Romulans are emotional and many of them are violent. Wouldn't it be logical then to assume that Vulcan children are also emotional but then become less so with age, training and cultural/social rules?
Greg Cox is not the only one interpreting that Spock was bullied as a child by the other full blooded Vulcan kids. The 2009 movie writers also think the same (I know, I know, a lot of people think the Kelvin timeline movies don't carry weight but....)

 

[locutus101]

Spock said (in episode Dagger of the mind) that because they have disposed of emotion there is no need of violence. Extending this then we could assume that there's no bullying among Vulcan children because there is no emotion. But, is this true? Are Vulcans born already with the ability of extremely controlling their emotion? Would something like this not need training? Which means that Vulcan children might be emotional and some could be bullies? It's a possibility. Especially if we consider that Romulans and Vulcans are genetically closely related, and that Romulans are emotional and many of them are violent. Wouldn't it be logical then to assume that Vulcan children are also emotional but then become less so with age, training and cultural/social rules?
Greg Cox is not the only one interpreting that Spock was bullied as a child by the other full blooded Vulcan kids. The 2009 movie writers also think the same (I know, I know, a lot of people think the Kelvin timeline movies don't carry weight but....)

But when you see how Tuvok is nonplussed by unruly children even though he's raised a few of his own, you may conclude that even at a very young age, Vulcan children are already poised and quite reasonable.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think he was bullied as a child though, that's something human children do, not Vulcan.

You'll have to take that up with D.C. Fontana who wrote "Yesteryear" and "Journey To Babel" and was the story editor for TOS

Spock watches a group of children verbally bullying another)
BOY: Earther! Barbarian! Emotional Earther! You're a Terran, Spock. You could never be a true Vulcan.
Y SPOCK: That is not true. My father
BOY 2: Your father brought shame to Vulcan. He married a human.
(Young Spock lunges at him, but they dodge him easily)
BOY: You haven't even mastered a simple Vulcan neck pinch yet, Earther.

SPOCK: Can you imagine what my father would say if I were to agree, if I were to give up command of this vessel, jeopardise hundreds of lives, risk interplanetary war, all for the life of one person?
AMANDA: When you were five years old and came home stiff-lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you saying that you weren't really Vulcan. I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part of you was crying and I cried, too. There must be some part of me in you, some part that I still can reach. If being Vulcan is more important to you, then you'll stand there speaking rules and regulations from Starfleet and Vulcan philosophy, and let your father die. And I'll hate you for the rest of my life.

 

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

But when you see how Tuvok is nonplussed by unruly children even though he's raised a few of his own, you may conclude that even at a very young age, Vulcan children are already poised and quite reasonable.

Tuvok himself was a rebellious emotional teenager (as per the episode Gravity, which I just happened to have watched). He was sent to a Vulcan Master to learn to control his emotions.

So I'd say that Vulcan children need to be taught how to suppress their emotions, albeit to varying degrees because they're not all alike. T'Pol's mother said that T'Pol's emotions always had been closer to the surface.

Vulcans do have emotions, very strong ones, and that's why they feel the need to control them, lest they be consumed by them. Since that came with Surak, which wasn't that long ago (evolutionary speaking), it stands to reason that it is something that has to be learnt. Many Trek fans make the mistake to think that Vulcans have no emotions, which is simply not true.

 

[locutus101]

You'll have to take that up with D.C. Fontana who wrote "Yesteryear" and "Journey To Babel" and was the story editor for TOS

You have to admit that that isn't very logical. I mean they invent a people with seemingly a completely different set of values from ours and then they make them behave exactly like humans. Remember the episode "In The Flesh". Archer says "It's Pon Farr Night at the Vulcan Nightclub" or something like that? Why would Vulcans celebrate Pon Farr when it's something they're supposed to be ashamed of and keep a secret. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You have to admit that that isn't very logical. I mean they invent a people with seemingly a complete different set of values than us and then they make them behave exactly like humans.

Not sure they were going for that when they created the Vulcans (or almost any Trek alien species)

 

[locutus101]

Not sure they were going for that when they created the Vulcans (or almost any Trek alien species)

The thing is that it seems that each time they get a new writer then all bets are off, and anything can happen. Who would have known that the ferengi would get a nagus that only a few episodes before was quoting Karl Marx?

 

[Nerys Myk]

The thing is that it seems that each time they get a new writer then all bets are off, and anything can happen. Who would have known that the ferengi would get a nagus that only a few episodes before was quoting Karl Marx?

Well D.C. Fontana was on TOS from the beginning. She along with GR was the chief script doctor. She's often thought of as the Godmother of Vulcans So I bow to her expertise. I've always found Amok Time to be more of an outlier than most other TOS Vulco-centric episodes. There's always a few ah ha moments with Vulcans. Inner eyelids, slap therapy, mind melds and the like. But their logic is taught. They have to work for it. There sense of cultural superiority also seems to be taught. Even Spock wasn't above that. And bullying goes hand in hand with that.

Not sure about the Ferengi reference. My TNG/DS9 isn't as strong as my TOS.

 

[locutus101]

Well D.C. Fontana was on TOS from the beginning. She along with GR was the chief script doctor. She's often thought of as the Godmother of Vulcans So I bow to her expertise. I've always found Amok Time to be more of an outlier than most other TOS Vulco-centric episodes. There's always a few ah ha moments with Vulcans. Inner eyelids, slap therapy, mind melds and the like. But their logic is taught. They have to work for it. There sense of cultural superiority also seems to be taught. Even Spock wasn't above that. And bullying goes hand in hand with that.

Not sure about the Ferengi reference. My TNG/DS9 isn't as strong as my TOS.

Even if the children had an impulse to be bullies it would be swiftly punished by the adults who are supposed to find that abject, as they find distasteful anything that's caused by emotions, they should find violence even more repulsive. The Bully would then be sent to one of these centers where they purge people of their emotions. That should be enough of a deterrent.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Even if the children had an impulse to be bullies it would be swiftly punished by the adults who are supposed to find that abject, as they find distasteful anything that's caused by emotions, they should find violence even more repulsive. The Bully would then be sent to one of these centers where they purge people of their emotions. That should be enough of a deterrent.

It's okay when the target is a half-human or any non-Vulcan. As I said, the sense of cultural superiority is strong in Vulcans. Violence is also okay when there is a logical reason for it. They even have a special form of execution, the Tal Shaya which is basically snapping the victim's neck. It's merciful because its "quick". The whole distasteful thing is a bit of an exaggeration, along with complete emotional control, not lying and a devotion to pure logic. You gotta cut through the hype generated by the Vulcan Propaganda Ministry and get to the facts.
The complete purging of emotions is a voluntary thing. Only the "best" Vulcans can pull it off.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

You have to admit that that isn't very logical. I mean they invent a people with seemingly a completely different set of values from ours and then they make them behave exactly like humans. Remember the episode "In The Flesh". Archer says "It's Pon Farr Night at the Vulcan Nightclub" or something like that? Why would Vulcans celebrate Pon Farr when it's something they're supposed to be ashamed of and keep a secret. It doesn't make any sense.

Why?

Their embracing of logic and the shunning of emotion is more of a religion than a physiological fact. That's been made abundantly clear over the years.

If anything, it's the Romulans that undermine the Vulcan way of life. They seem pretty functional as a people. Cruel and cunning, sure, but hardly bloodthirsty barbarians who main and murder because they can't control their emotions.

 

[locutus101]

It's okay when the target is a half-human or any non-Vulcan. As I said, the sense of cultural superiority is strong in Vulcans. Violence is also okay when there is a logical reason for it. They even have a special form of execution, the Tal Shaya which is basically snapping the victim's neck. It's merciful because its "quick". The whole distasteful thing is a bit of an exaggeration, along with complete emotional control, not lying and a devotion to pure logic. You gotta cut through the hype generated by the Vulcan Propaganda Ministry and get to the facts.
The complete purging of emotions is a voluntary thing. Only the "best" Vulcans can pull it off.

Tuvok wasn't there of his own free will in that episode, was he? So it's at least one exception to your rule.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Tuvok wasn't there of his own free will in that episode, was he? So it's at least one exception to your rule.

Not saying its a rule. But parents do all sorts of things to keep kids in line. Send then to Military schools. Enroll them in scared straight programs. Beat the shit out of them. Tuvok's experience may not be typical. IIRC, it's the only time we hear of it happening, So let me rephrase: its usually voluntary and for adults.

 

[locutus101]

Not saying its a rule. But parents do all sorts of things to keep kids in line. Send then to Military schools. Enroll them in scared straight programs. Beat the shit out of them. Tuvok's experience may not be typical. IIRC, it's the only time we hear of it happening, So let me rephrase: its usually voluntary and for adults.

We have no proof that it's only for adults. Was Tuvok an adult? If so then why did they use a different actor to play him. Adults tend to look the same whether they are twenty or Sixty, only with grey hair and some wrinkles, But adult Tuvok has neither.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We have no proof that it's only for adults. Was Tuvok an adult? If so then why did they use a different actor to play him. Adults tend to look the same whether they are twenty or Sixty, only with grey hair and some wrinkles, But adult Tuvok has neither.

I'm not saying he was an adult. IIRC he was a child. My VOY is even weaker than my DS9. I probably saw the episode once. I'm basing usually being an adult when completely purge one's emotions on Spock in TMP going through Kolinahr. Though I don't think young Tuvok was sent to Kolinahr, just some sort of emotional control boot camp.

 

[locutus101]

I'm not saying he was an adult. IIRC he was a child. My VOY is even weaker than my DS9. I probably saw the episode once. I'm basing usually being an adult when completely purge one's emotions on Spock in TMP going through Kolinahr. Though I don't think young Tuvok was sent to Kolinahr, just some sort of emotional control boot camp.

I don't know what they did to him but it must have been pretty radical because he was very rebellious at the start and completely docile at the end.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't know what they did to him but it must have been pretty radical because he was very rebellious at the start and completely docile at the end.

Shock therapy.

 

[Willow]

Why?

Their embracing of logic and the shunning of emotion is more of a religion than a physiological fact. That's been made abundantly clear over the years.

If anything, it's the Romulans that undermine the Vulcan way of life. They seem pretty functional as a people. Cruel and cunning, sure, but hardly bloodthirsty barbarians who main and murder because they can't control their emotions.

This makes sense to me! One of the things that I found confusing is that the Vulcans claimed to embrace logic so they would not succumb to their "barbaric" emotional side, I seem to recall T'Pol using the term "barbaric" at some point....

But all I saw of the Romulans were that they were more emotional. I'm not sure about more "cunning", as I saw evidence of the cunning of Vulcans. So the idea that the Vulcans had to "bury" their emotional side to "survive" really did just seem like a choice - a "religion" of sorts, or just a life philosophy- which helped individual Vulcans navigate through their life.

 

[Anna Yolei]

I don't think he was bullied as a child though, that's something human children do, not Vulcan.

Tell that to JJ Abrams