T'Pau should have been ticked ...

[CorporalCaptain]

T'Pau realized the probability that McCoy was slipping Kirk a mickey. I think she was impressed by the spunkiness of it.

Yeah, T'Pau probably appreciated a bit of Heart and Soul.

Heh.

 

[Gov Kodos]

There is a Valjiir-universe fanfic where Spock later meets a woman (another Enterprise science officer) and wants to marry her. Everything seems to be going fine until T'Pring files the Vulcan equivalent of a lawsuit, claiming that she and Spock are still married - since "nobody died." It's a rather interesting take on the Vulcan judicial system.

A bit hypocritical since T'Pring was the one scheming to get rid of Spock so she could have Stonn. I guess she DID find the having wasn't as good as the wanting.

Then again, I'm not a big T'Pring fan.

I'd have loved for Kirk to have incapacitated Spock and then have Miss 'Only 3 logically possible outcomes' beamed up with the Captain. The look on her face would have been great.

 

[T'Bonz]

First - let's keep in mind that we're talking about fanfic, and this particular story was written and published ~25 years ago. Also, keep in mind the way T'Pring was portrayed in Spock's World: greedy, selfish, bigoted, using political means to exact her revenge.

To be honest, as much as I like Duane's books, and some of them I LOVE, I didn't like Spock's World. Her Vulcans were too human for my liking and I hated her portrayal of T'Pring.

What revenge? Well, consider this: It had been ages since any woman had actually asserted her right to have two men fight to the death during a marriage ceremony.

According to Amok Time, the right to have a man fight to the death was ancient, but there was nothing that said that the last claim was ancient or that no one had done it in centuries/years. (I looked up the actual dialogue.)

Most civilized Vulcan women who didn't want to go through with the bonding/marriage would have found another way, or just done what Queen Victoria was advised to do ("lie back and think of England").

Supposition.

However, in T'Pring's case, even though she ended up with Stonn, it wasn't the way she expected it to happen, and it didn't have the long-term effect on her life that she anticipated. I'm going by Diane Duane's novel and a whole lot of fanfic here, but basically T'Pring became a social outcast after she Challenged. And Stonn wasn't pleased either, as T'Pring impugned his honor by choosing Kirk as her champion. Yes, she had a logical reason (she didn't want Stonn dead)... but it was still a dishonorable thing to do.

There is one story that spells the situation out quite neatly: T'Pring is networking and negotiating among her female acquaintances to try to arrange marriages for her own children (hers and Stonn's). However, for some reason, nobody is eager to take her up on it. It's not because of any lack of academic credentials or artistic accomplishments or other social/clan traits that Vulcans value... it's because T'Pring challenged. She could have let Spock die because she refused to do her duty. Whatever could T'Pring be influencing her own daughter to do if she decided she didn't want the prospective husband when the Time came?

T'Pring's Challenge forever ended any chance she had of being trusted by her peers - and her children are considered equally untrustworthy, by association.

All non-canon, taken from a book which I consider to not have a proper handle on T'Pring.

Logical? Of course not - by human standards. But we know that there is a mean streak of hypocrisy running through Vulcan society anyway.

I can agree on that as there were times throughout the series that that seemed to be the case. Sarek, for example.

 

[Doug Otte]

Uh-uh. T'Pau made it very clear that "this combat is to the death."

When that custom was established in ancient times, I think we can assume they didn't have any medical technology to verify the combatant's death. It was probably done by observation.

In this case, Kirk's "death" met the test of observation. Therefore, the custom was satisfied.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Uh-uh. T'Pau made it very clear that "this combat is to the death."

When that custom was established in ancient times, I think we can assume they didn't have any medical technology to verify the combatant's death. It was probably done by observation.

Once they had civilization, I wouldn't assume that their methods of confirming death were ineffective, even in ancient times. Pesky Vulcans, ever logical, would have been most logical.

 

[Agenda]

T'Pau's knowledge and wisdom is above that of mere humans.

 

[Ronald Held]

In principle clinical death, by observation, should suffice. If Kirk was revived afterwards, the letter of the ritual wulld be upheld.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Eh, T'Pau most likely saw the logic in the situation. McCoy found a way to solve the problem and make everybody happy. So he fibbed about Kirk being dead. Meh, regardless of the legend of Vulcan's being unable to lie, they actually do and use verbal gymnastics to justify it. Sometimes, lying is logical. Vulcan honor was satisfied, Spock got his bachelor status back ("Jim, that bitch was a drag"), Kirk survived the encounter without killing his best friend, Spock's hard on melted, and all is right with the world.

Besides, Vulcans don't strike me as overly litigious. Nopt to mention that Spock was saved from prison and disgrace by these actions, something I'm sure T'Pau appreciated since Spock's family is pretty important.

Worst case scenario, Bones could always just say "oops, my bad. He only looked dead. Well, no harm done."

 

[Timo]

T'Pau appreciated since Spock's family is pretty important

Does T'Pau really appreciate anything relating to Sarek? The zoophilic bastard didn't even deign to attend the ceremony where his freak of a son misbehaved! It might well be in T'Pau's interests to allow the farce to reach as ridiculous heights as Vulcanly possible, and then either to make it highly public to discredit Sarek, or to use the threat thereof for keeping the crazy Ambassador on a tighter leash.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timewalker]

I'd have loved for Kirk to have incapacitated Spock and then have Miss 'Only 3 logically possible outcomes' beamed up with the Captain. The look on her face would have been great.

Funny you should mention that. I started a fanfic similar to this scenario.

First - let's keep in mind that we're talking about fanfic, and this particular story was written and published ~25 years ago. Also, keep in mind the way T'Pring was portrayed in Spock's World: greedy, selfish, bigoted, using political means to exact her revenge.

To be honest, as much as I like Duane's books, and some of them I LOVE, I didn't like Spock's World. Her Vulcans were too human for my liking and I hated her portrayal of T'Pring.

What revenge? Well, consider this: It had been ages since any woman had actually asserted her right to have two men fight to the death during a marriage ceremony.

According to Amok Time, the right to have a man fight to the death was ancient, but there was nothing that said that the last claim was ancient or that no one had done it in centuries/years. (I looked up the actual dialogue.)



Supposition.

However, in T'Pring's case, even though she ended up with Stonn, it wasn't the way she expected it to happen, and it didn't have the long-term effect on her life that she anticipated. I'm going by Diane Duane's novel and a whole lot of fanfic here, but basically T'Pring became a social outcast after she Challenged. And Stonn wasn't pleased either, as T'Pring impugned his honor by choosing Kirk as her champion. Yes, she had a logical reason (she didn't want Stonn dead)... but it was still a dishonorable thing to do.

There is one story that spells the situation out quite neatly: T'Pring is networking and negotiating among her female acquaintances to try to arrange marriages for her own children (hers and Stonn's). However, for some reason, nobody is eager to take her up on it. It's not because of any lack of academic credentials or artistic accomplishments or other social/clan traits that Vulcans value... it's because T'Pring challenged. She could have let Spock die because she refused to do her duty. Whatever could T'Pring be influencing her own daughter to do if she decided she didn't want the prospective husband when the Time came?

T'Pring's Challenge forever ended any chance she had of being trusted by her peers - and her children are considered equally untrustworthy, by association.

All non-canon, taken from a book which I consider to not have a proper handle on T'Pring.

Please re-read my posts. I never said ALL of these were taken from Spock's World. I made it very clear that I'm talking about fanfiction. After all, we only saw T'Pring in one episode, and all we know about her is from that one episode. All else is extrapolation.

So if you don't like Diane Duane's interpretation (or anybody else's, evidently), how would YOU have written T'Pring's post-Amok Time character?

Uh-uh. T'Pau made it very clear that "this combat is to the death."

When that custom was established in ancient times, I think we can assume they didn't have any medical technology to verify the combatant's death. It was probably done by observation.

In this case, Kirk's "death" met the test of observation. Therefore, the custom was satisfied.

I'm pretty sure Vulcans knew how to listen for a heartbeat or check to see if anybody was breathing. Even dumb humans know how to do that.

T'Pau appreciated since Spock's family is pretty important

Does T'Pau really appreciate anything relating to Sarek? The zoophilic bastard didn't even deign to attend the ceremony where his freak of a son misbehaved! It might well be in T'Pau's interests to allow the farce to reach as ridiculous heights as Vulcanly possible, and then either to make it highly public to discredit Sarek, or to use the threat thereof for keeping the crazy Ambassador on a tighter leash.

Timo Saloniemi

Which episode was aired first - Journey to Babel or Amok Time? (honest question, since I never did see TOS in its proper order).

In any case, there are two logical assumptions that can be made as to why Sarek wasn't at the wedding. T'Pring's parents weren't there; maybe it isn't customary for parents to attend their children's weddings. Or... it's entirely possible that Sarek and Amanda were off-planet on a diplomatic mission at the time.

 

[Redfern]

"Amok Time" was the second season opener. "Babel..." aired later. So, given what little was mentioned of them, viewers couldn't be sure Spock's parents were even alive during the Pon Farr ritual.

I've noticed TV series usually tend to be deliberately vague about family relations just in case they want to introduce a relative sometime down the line.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Doug Otte]

I'm guessing the only loser at the end would be Chapel. I bet she didn't try to serve plomeek soup to Spock after that incident!

 

[Ronald Held]

I would speculate that Sarek and Amanda were on a mission too far away to arrive on time.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I suspect T'Pau observed the situation logically, and saw that McCoy and Kirk showed great devotion and respect for their friend Spock, and that McCoy showed an impressive (for a non-Vulcan) display of ingenuity to resolve an issue.

She also likely saw that they showed honor and loyalty through an unfamiliar culture.

Personal feeling likely did not enter into her thinking, and it was also logical for her to ensure the best outcome for all concerned, which meant using her influence to get them out of trouble with Starfleet at the end.

 

[T'Bonz]

So if you don't like Diane Duane's interpretation (or anybody else's, evidently), how would YOU have written T'Pring's post-Amok Time character?

I wouldn't have.

Note that I am usually a fan of Duane's works, an enthusiastic one at that. I just didn't like Spock's World. It felt "off" to me.

I can't say I'm a fan of most fan-fiction though. Most of it is not very well done.

 

[T'Girl]

I would speculate that Sarek and Amanda were on a mission too far away to arrive on time.

The thing there is Amok Time and Journey to Babel are separated (air dates) by only two months. Sarek came out of retirement solely for the Babel mission. This to me suggests that at the time of Amok Time, Sarek was retired from diplomatic service. This wouldn't have prevented Spock's parent from being off Vulcan.

If you think back to Amok Time, who in the arena were supposed to have been T'Pring's parents?

There was T'Pau, T'Pring and Stonn. People carrying T'Pau, people carrying bells, people carrying weapons, and the axeman.

 

[T'Bonz]

Eh. Perhaps due to the violence of the challenge, parents don't attend.

 

[Timewalker]

Eh. Perhaps due to the violence of the challenge, parents don't attend.

Why, because it might shock them?

T'Pring's parents were not there. So conceding that Sarek and Amanda were likely not at a diplomatic event off-world, it's entirely possible that they happened to be on Earth for personal reasons (ie. visiting Amanda's family). Or the simplest answer is that parents do not attend their children's weddings.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Even without the challenge, Pon Farr is a time of madness and raw emotionality among Vulcans. Is it inconceivable that children wouldn't want their parents to see them in that state and that parents, likewise, would rather not see it themselves?

 

[T'Girl]

Even without the challenge

Without the challenge my impression is that events would have progress directly to the marriage ceremony, in fact the striking of the gong that T'Pring stopped might have been (in it's self) the marriage ceremony.

And why would non-emotional Vulcan parent even want to be at their child's wedding?

Pon Farr is a time of madness and raw emotionality among Vulcans.

Up to the time of T'Pring's challenge Spock was somewhat in control, the blood fever didn't begin until after the challenge.

Debatable it wouldn't have occurred if there had been no challenge.