Tourist submarine goes missing

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Unfortunately, the public debate appears to have descended into a discussion of "wokeness". I'd rather they concentrated on analysing the engineering mistakes and why these were overlooked as it seems similar designs were previously widely regarded as unsafe.

ETA: Watched Scott Manley's YouTube live stream about this and other topics. He does a quick P.ΔV calculation to estimate that catastrophic implosion would have a similar result as setting off about 50kg of TNT in the vessel. One commenter did a more accurate calculation of 47kg TNT equivalent.

 

[Non Sync]

Unfortunately, the public debate appears to have descended into a discussion of "wokeness". I'd rather they concentrated on analysing the engineering mistakes and why these were overlooked as it seems similar designs were previously widely regarded as unsafe.

ETA: Watched Scott Manley's YouTube live stream about this and other topics. He does a quick P.ΔV calculation to estimate that catastrophic implosion would have a similar result as setting off about 50kg of TNT in the vessel. One commenter did a more accurate calculation of 47kg TNT equivalent.

They were using the SpaceX model of development where you do rapid prototype and accept that they'll blow stuff up. The folks at OceanGate seemed to miss the part where SpaceX was doing all this with unmanned vessels.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Whoopsie...

 

[publiusr]

Every cycle the carbon fiber hull gets weaker. At the beginning of ENTERPRISE, you see Deep Flight of Hawkes---but it was used at more shallow depths.

Same and the sheer lies, they claimed that they consulted NASA, Boeing, and the University of Washington in the design of the submarine..... just wow such blatant lying

That or CYA:
https://www.businessinsider.com/boe...ing-design-oceangate-titan-submersible-2023-6

NASA did previously consult on the Titan submersible with OceanGate. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center had a Space Act Agreement with OceanGate, Lance D. Davis, acting news chief for NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center said in a statement sent to Insider. A Space Act Agreement allows NASA to work with any organizations that "meet wide-ranging NASA missions and program requirements and objectives," according to information about the policy on NASA's website.

If you recall, there are those who wanted to replace SRB's steel caisson segments with fiber:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/01/the-dark-knights-atks-advanced-booster-revealed-for-sls/

Outside-in pressures---or inside-out pressures...hmm.

I wonder if it was the same people.

Then too, the way the CEO pooh-poohed regulations, I move that the Titan be retro-actively renamed the S. S. Rand Simberg:
https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2435/1

What really needs to happen is to cycle one of these things, take past crush depth with crash test dummies and cameras.

More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OceanGate#Titan

 

[Non Sync]

OceanGate used the University of Washington's testing tanks on a contract basis but did not provide any verification or validation of any of OceanGate's equipment.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

I suspect this tragedy will impact on the space tourism mob big time.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Every cycle the carbon fiber hull gets weaker. At the beginning of ENTERPRISE, you see Deep Flight of Hawkes---but it was used at more shallow depths.



That or CYA:
https://www.businessinsider.com/boe...ing-design-oceangate-titan-submersible-2023-6

NASA did previously consult on the Titan submersible with OceanGate. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center had a Space Act Agreement with OceanGate, Lance D. Davis, acting news chief for NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center said in a statement sent to Insider. A Space Act Agreement allows NASA to work with any organizations that "meet wide-ranging NASA missions and program requirements and objectives," according to information about the policy on NASA's website.

If you recall, there are those who wanted to replace SRB's steel caisson segments with fiber:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/01/the-dark-knights-atks-advanced-booster-revealed-for-sls/

Outside-in pressures---or inside-out pressures...hmm.

I wonder if it was the same people.

Then too, the way the CEO pooh-poohed regulations, I move that the Titan be retro-actively renamed the S. S. Rand Simberg:
https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2435/1

What really needs to happen is to cycle one of these things, take past crush depth with crash test dummies and cameras.

More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OceanGate#Titan

Then why has NASA issued denials that they were ever in the loop?

 

[Non Sync]

Then why has NASA issued denials that they were ever in the loop?

They were not part of the design or testing of the submersible itself, just the manufacturing process of the carbon fiber middle section and not its suitability for the purpose. NASA was relying on OceanGate to test and prove the concept (ideally not under the conditions which they did).

 

[publiusr]

Cowing and Alan Stern missed a bullet
https://nasawatch.com/exploration/per-aquas-ad-astra/

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I suspect this tragedy will impact on the space tourism mob big time.

Well they will come under more scrutiny. That's a good thing.

 

[Owain Taggart]

The more I learn about the construction of this vessel and the lack of certification, the more I'm flabbergasted that anyone thought it safe.

It's not even that anyone thought it safe, it's that the owner deliberately didn't want certification because it was too expensive. After repeated warnings and concerns about the sub from an employee, the employee was fired and paid off to keep their mouth shut. Then the company has the gall to have the 'visitors' sign a waiver, knowing full he's sending them into danger.

See, the difference between this and a waiver that you'd sign if you were skydiving is that with skydiving you're doing it with proven equipment and licensed professionals who know the risks, and the waiver is there for the unforeseen accidents that could occur. This on the other hand has none of that going for it; the sub isn't certified, the owner didn't do his diligence in making sure if it safe to use and gambled human lives, and did all this knowing there was a very real danger. You can bet the waiver will be heavily scrutinized. You don't get to create a waiver when you know full-well your setup is faulty to begin with.

I certainly hope some better standards will come out of this, such as no diving unless you're a certified professional using certified equipment.

As an aside, I've actually met Alan Stern twice. Nice guy.

 

[Jedi Marso]

It's not even that anyone thought it safe, it's that the owner deliberately didn't want certification because it was too expensive. After repeated warnings and concerns about the sub from an employee, the employee was fired and paid off to keep their mouth shut. Then the company has the gall to have the 'visitors' sign a waiver, knowing full he's sending them into danger.

See, the difference between this and a waiver that you'd sign if you were skydiving is that with skydiving you're doing it with proven equipment and licensed professionals who know the risks, and the waiver is there for the unforeseen accidents that could occur. This on the other hand has none of that going for it; the sub isn't certified, the owner didn't do his diligence in making sure if it safe to use and gambled human lives, and did all this knowing there was a very real danger. You can bet the waiver will be heavily scrutinized. You don't get to create a waiver when you know full-well your setup is faulty to begin with.

I certainly hope some better standards will come out of this, such as no diving unless you're a certified professional using certified equipment.

Zactly. Legally speaking, I'm reasonably sure there is a point where gross (criminal) negligence will override any waiver signed by the occupants.

 

[Non Sync]

 

[Owain Taggart]

Zactly. Legally speaking, I'm reasonably sure there is a point where gross (criminal) negligence will override any waiver signed by the occupants.

Yeah, it's like, "Sign here please. We know you'll die, we just don't want to be liable for it!" But I doubt it would hold given it was known there were issues in the first place. Waivers I think only cover accidental cases, not negligence.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Seriously that photo with the game controller, blows my mind that they thought that was good enough to control the vessel

 

[Non Sync]

The joystick controller has moved to near the bottom of the list of concerns. The latest is that the carbon fiber was past its expiration date for use in aircraft.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The joystick controller has moved to near the bottom of the list of concerns. The latest is that the carbon fiber was past its expiration date for use in aircraft.

I know. The sub had done many dives and no one bothered to check all that. Safety was not an issue it would seem, or on the bottom of the list of things to do. It's just that every time I see these photos wherever they pop up that one with the controller keeps popping up everywhere too.

 

[Non Sync]

I know. The sub had done many dives and no one bothered to check all that. Safety was not an issue it would seem, or on the bottom of the list of things to do.

The expiration date was past when they bought it to manufacture the hull. That was before a single dive. The aircraft manufacturers wouldn't use it to make their planes but OceanPort bought it for a deal.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The expiration date was past when they bought it to manufacture the hull. That was before a single dive. The aircraft manufacturers wouldn't use it to make their planes but OceanPort bought it for a deal.

Like I said seems safety was not important

 

[Haggis and tatties]

If this guy had any sense he could have built this sub, installed a 16k small viewing port monitor, then dived to 30 feet while everyone watched a video of the sub going to the wreck of the titanic on that 16k monitor they think is a small porthole window, and no one would been any the wiser, and all would be safe and alive, for all that they could actually see anyway at the real wreck.....or....just buy a oculus CV1 vr hmd and tour a virtual titanic from the safety of your own home, which i can tell you is quite a good vr experence.