Isn´t it always amazing, how much Spock knows about minute details of Earth history? 
TOS Non-Interference Directive versus Prime Directive?
- Thread starter Robert Comsol
- Start date
Thanks T'Girl for the correction (so we can exclude that the "Long Knives" or the "Trail of Tears" had anything to do with them).
I agree, it's always interesting how much Spock knows about Earth history, but it's an interesting mix he observes: The Navajo were from the Southwest, the Mahicans and the Lenape from the Northeast.
Almost looks to me that the Preservers populated the planet with those tribes but in different locations which eventually mixed and Spock merely saw a late stage of that cultural mix, obviously being able to see elements of Navajo, "Mohican" and "Delaware".
Bob
I agree, it's always interesting how much Spock knows about Earth history, but it's an interesting mix he observes: The Navajo were from the Southwest, the Mahicans and the Lenape from the Northeast.
Almost looks to me that the Preservers populated the planet with those tribes but in different locations which eventually mixed and Spock merely saw a late stage of that cultural mix, obviously being able to see elements of Navajo, "Mohican" and "Delaware".
Bob
Only Proconsul Claudius was aware of extraterrestrial life, not his citizens.
Incorrect!
From "Return of the Archons":
"Sociologist Lindstrom is remaining behind with a party of experts who will help restore the planet's culture to a human form."
From "The Apple":
"You'll learn to care for yourselves, with our help. And there's no trick to putting fruit on trees. You might enjoy it. You'll learn to build for yourselves, think for yourselves, work for yourselves, and what you create is yours. That's what we call freedom. You'll like it, a lot. And you'll learn something about men and women, the way they're supposed to be. Caring for each other, being happy with each other, being good to each other. That's what we call love. You'll like that, too, a lot. You and your children."
From "Patterns of Force":
ENEG: Thank you, but go now. We must do the rest.
DARAS: Eneg and I will go on the air, offer a new way for our people. For all our people, both Zeons and Ekosians.
ENEG: It is time to stop the bloodshed, to bury our dead.
...
KIRK: Mister Spock, I think the planet is in good hands.
SPOCK: Indeed, Captain. With the union of two cultures, this system would make a fine addition to the Federation.
Bob
So Kirk abandoned two cultures outright and left a redshirt to watch how the third withers and dies...
What makes it even funnier is that two of the cultures were not even self-sustaining as such. They were village-sized communities, forced into a mold taken from human history but without the means to operate the way those historical communities did.
Timo Saloniemi
What makes it even funnier is that two of the cultures were not even self-sustaining as such. They were village-sized communities, forced into a mold taken from human history but without the means to operate the way those historical communities did.
Timo Saloniemi
Before that took place and I believe before the away team ever encountered the projection of Landru, this took place:
Spock: "Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference."
Kirk: "That refers to a living, growing culture...do you think this one is?"
THAT I believe (having just watched the episode yesterday) was the very first reference to the Prime and Kirk spells out one of it's tenants in his first words.
Welcome to the BBS, Ensign Ricky, thanks for the correction and -of course - the extra information. 
KIRK: Landru must die.
SPOCK: Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference.
KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is?
(from http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/22.htm)
I read it was the first episode ever to refer to the Prime Directive but obviously only noticed the "odd" Landru dialogue referring to it in a different context (strange choice of the screenplay writer).
Bob
KIRK: Landru must die.
SPOCK: Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference.
KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is?
(from http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/22.htm)
I read it was the first episode ever to refer to the Prime Directive but obviously only noticed the "odd" Landru dialogue referring to it in a different context (strange choice of the screenplay writer).
Bob
Sorry I'm coming late to the conversation.
2 seperate points I want to make regarding this topic.
I think a big part of the Prime Directive that really gets glossed over or missed is that the Starfleet is not allowed to exploit the natives. There were two times I think that happened, one less obvious than the other, but with Merrick and Tracey.
Captain Merrick used whatever influence he had to set himself up in a good position, so the exploitation is not very blatant, but it is still there. The blatant exploitation was from Capt. Tracey, his attempt to be a strong man with the natives in order to bring their longevity to the Federation is certainly an exploitation. Even if it wasn't for monetary gain, just prestige possibly, he was still attempting to use those people to return to the Federation as a "great man" for discovering immortality. The fact that Dr. McCoy discovered it wasn't marketable really screwed his plans, but he was already up to his neck in blood trying to make his plan work for himself. That's is, in my opinion, the Prime Directive that a Captain should be willing to lose his ship to prevent. Captain Kirk destroying Vaal, Landru, disrupting Norman, or even messing with Plasus and the Troglytes caste system could certainly be construed as "interference", but it isn't of an exploitive nature. Captain Tracey may have thought protecting the Kohms was altruistic, but he was really more concerned with bringing his discovery back to civilization, or that's what I interpreted.
Another one that seems like it's a really blatant violation of the Prime Directive was at Janus VI. The miners just moved in and started taking over the planet, even though it was inhabited by a pre warp or whatever criteria civilization, the Horta. Now, of course they didn't realize that at the time, and the situation was negotiated in the end, but that really was an incidence of interference although the exploitation was limited to the minerals of the planet and not the natives themselves.
That kind of goes into my second point, if it's too restrictive, then space exploration is impossible because any planet that might be interesting or useful would certainly have some type of life form that can be interfered with. A TNG episode made me think of this, (and I don't like a later show retro interpreting things) but it got me thinking about this. They were willing to use a star to experiment on to see if a technique to save the home star of the scientist's system. It wasn't interference to damage the other star? Just because they didn't think there was any life forms known in that system? They didn't know the Horta were there before they started mining. Also, a brief study of Earth's history shows that 98%+ of it's history it was uninhabitable or not inhabited by intelligent life, who is to say a similarly primitive planet would not develop life in a few million years? Isn't that interference to potential life forms, or is that where the line is drawn, they are there now, so they count, but later on, not concerened. How intelligent is intelligent enough to be protected?
2 seperate points I want to make regarding this topic.
I think a big part of the Prime Directive that really gets glossed over or missed is that the Starfleet is not allowed to exploit the natives. There were two times I think that happened, one less obvious than the other, but with Merrick and Tracey.
Captain Merrick used whatever influence he had to set himself up in a good position, so the exploitation is not very blatant, but it is still there. The blatant exploitation was from Capt. Tracey, his attempt to be a strong man with the natives in order to bring their longevity to the Federation is certainly an exploitation. Even if it wasn't for monetary gain, just prestige possibly, he was still attempting to use those people to return to the Federation as a "great man" for discovering immortality. The fact that Dr. McCoy discovered it wasn't marketable really screwed his plans, but he was already up to his neck in blood trying to make his plan work for himself. That's is, in my opinion, the Prime Directive that a Captain should be willing to lose his ship to prevent. Captain Kirk destroying Vaal, Landru, disrupting Norman, or even messing with Plasus and the Troglytes caste system could certainly be construed as "interference", but it isn't of an exploitive nature. Captain Tracey may have thought protecting the Kohms was altruistic, but he was really more concerned with bringing his discovery back to civilization, or that's what I interpreted.
Another one that seems like it's a really blatant violation of the Prime Directive was at Janus VI. The miners just moved in and started taking over the planet, even though it was inhabited by a pre warp or whatever criteria civilization, the Horta. Now, of course they didn't realize that at the time, and the situation was negotiated in the end, but that really was an incidence of interference although the exploitation was limited to the minerals of the planet and not the natives themselves.
That kind of goes into my second point, if it's too restrictive, then space exploration is impossible because any planet that might be interesting or useful would certainly have some type of life form that can be interfered with. A TNG episode made me think of this, (and I don't like a later show retro interpreting things) but it got me thinking about this. They were willing to use a star to experiment on to see if a technique to save the home star of the scientist's system. It wasn't interference to damage the other star? Just because they didn't think there was any life forms known in that system? They didn't know the Horta were there before they started mining. Also, a brief study of Earth's history shows that 98%+ of it's history it was uninhabitable or not inhabited by intelligent life, who is to say a similarly primitive planet would not develop life in a few million years? Isn't that interference to potential life forms, or is that where the line is drawn, they are there now, so they count, but later on, not concerened. How intelligent is intelligent enough to be protected?
Merrick practiced self-preservation, which isn't allowed for Starfleet officers but supposedly is for civilians. His exploitation didn't extend much beyond that, and didn't work out too well in the end anyway.
Tracey also wanted to stay alive. But he wasn't a "strong man" - he was the one and only protector of a helpless people facing annihilation by barbarian hordes. We hear of no political, economical or spiritual influence whatsoever that he would have held over the Kohms, other than his enjoying of their general sympathy for the (attempted if futile) act of salvation. The ways of the Kohm remained, and served the interests of the Kohm rather than the interests of Tracey. Indeed, they were at odds with the interests of Tracey, because being Kohm was a death sentence and Tracey wanted to live.
That staying alive and incidentally also helping the Kohms stay alive would potentially help Tracey to fame and riches is hardly relevant here. Tracey's actions were at the same time self-preservationist and altruist, with a great emphasis on the latter because a much better survival strategy would have involved selling out the last Kohm village to the Yangs and making a deal with the savages!
Civilians aren't banned from exploiting, as far as we know. They can make their own deals, and supposedly they operate within the framework of UFP commercial laws and/or its interaction with the commercial laws of the other party, if such things exist. Making unjust deals is illegal between Feds already, so dealing with aliens from a primitive planet would not represent a fundamental step in any particular direction.
As regards "protecting of life" in Star Trek, dialogue usually excludes all but animal life: lush worlds are deemed lifeless if nothing walks, hops or crawls there (say, "Shore Leave"). Clearly, the UFP approach to life is pragmatic, only involving sympathy for creatures that can clearly express their desire or need for sympathy.
Interference thus apparently is defined as interference on cultural or political level in societies practicing culture or politics, or at least the episodes don't suggest otherwise. And tool-using crows or beautifully singing nightingales don't yet represent "culture", nor the careful maneuverings of two competing packs of space hyenas "politics".
Timo Saloniemi
Let’s be blunt, please. Merrick was trying to save his ass while his former shipmates stuck to their ideals and got sacrificed for that. Tracey was also trying to save his ass (he should not have used his phaser to kill a single Yang) but also tried to make a profit. His actions were hardly altruist. He just realized he could exploit the Kohms which was not possible with the “savage” Yangs. Given his opportunistic attitude he would have always stroken a bargain with the more promising business partner, which the Yangs apparently were not at first.
Dr. Carol Marcus would also care for a microbe on an otherwise lifeless planet. But it’s not that the UFP has no sympathy for exotic aliens as seen in “Galaxy’s Child”. The appearance of Starfleet officers in front of a herd of exotic apes would have no significant impact on evolution and the apes forming eventually a community and culture. However, once a community and culture has formed, the confrontation with more advanced lifeforms (gods?) could have adverse consequences for the further evolution of such culture, hence and rightfully so the Prime Directive to prevent unnecessary contamination.
Bob
We don't know how it applies to Merchant Service vessels. Kirk speaks of Merrick's oath during the episode:
Bread and Circuses said:
Tracey got thrust into a bad situation, then he saw a way to exploit it for personal gain and threw all decency to hell.
He wasn't defending the Kohms, he was defending his "discovery" I think even if he found out to get the long life out of them you'd have to cook their organs, no problem.
I'm with BillJ and Bob on Merrick.
I don't think the miners actually violated the Prime Directive, at least not intentionally, but if it doesn't apply to Federation citizens, then what the hell good is it? So, Starfleet finds a planet with a culture that should be left alone to mature and a bunch of mineral hunters show up with modern tech and exploit the hell out of it? I think that's a violation of non-interference.
He wasn't defending the Kohms, he was defending his "discovery" I think even if he found out to get the long life out of them you'd have to cook their organs, no problem.
I'm with BillJ and Bob on Merrick.
I don't think the miners actually violated the Prime Directive, at least not intentionally, but if it doesn't apply to Federation citizens, then what the hell good is it? So, Starfleet finds a planet with a culture that should be left alone to mature and a bunch of mineral hunters show up with modern tech and exploit the hell out of it? I think that's a violation of non-interference.
Yes, and I think that was a major issue for the Federation ambassadors to resolve in "Journey to Babel".
Apparently, the Corridan planets were an advanced culture, but having Tellarites and others doing illegal dilithium mining wasn't exactly compatible with Federation ethics and the essential rule of non-interference.
In "Mirror, Mirror" Kirk showcased the proper procedure when he negotiated with the Halkans for Federation mining rights.
Bob
We witnessed no exploitation whatsoever - the Kohms gave Tracey nothing!
Being protected by the Kohms was worse than nothing, clearly; living in the village was just painting a big bullseye on the back of the gold shirt. And if Tracey needed live specimens of local supermen, he could have gathered either Kohms or Yangs. But he apparently didn't need even that. It would have sufficed for him to live long enough to contact the Federation somehow; reporting to Kirk immediately would have guaranteed him his riches. But he didn't give a damn about those, whereas he was willing to break all his oaths to keep the Kohm village from being overrun, for no discernible purpose other than keeping the villagers alive.
I don't understand where this "personal gain" angle is coming from. Tracey only speaks of selling the longevity secret when Kirk establishes that outrageous bribery is Tracey's only way of avoiding a (Jail? Death? Just kicked-out-of-Starfleet-without-good-pension?) sentence for his actions in protecting the Kohms. Those actions themselves were not conducted with a profit motive in mind.
Conversely, Dr. Sela Marr did not care for exotic alien life, and it's not as if our heroes really wanted to protect it and its ilk, either. It seems to be case-by-case, hit-and-miss, only-on-Tuesdays-when-it-rains - even more so than as regards the treatment of sentient humanoids.
How?
I mean, keeping the Kohms from dying wouldn't play a role in that. The Yangs would provide the secret of longevity just as well - and in the greater scheme of things, the secret would have to lie in the environment of the planet anyway. What Tracey really needed in order to exploit his discovery for personal gain was... Well, absolutely nothing he could ever achieve, because he was already a condemned man for protecting the Kohms.
If Tracey really was to set out on a path of personal profit, he should never have bothered with the Kohms, but should have hidden in the bushes until another starship arrived. The motivation for keeping the Yangs at bay couldn't have had anything to do with a rational plan to exploit the "serum" of long life.
Timo Saloniemi
From "The Omega Glory":
TRACEY:This immunising agent here, once we've found it, is a fountain of youth. Virtual immortality, or as much as any man will ever want.
KIRK: For sale by
TRACEY: By those who own the serum. McCoy will eventually isolate it. Meanwhile, you inform your ship your situation's impossible. Order them away. When we're ready, we'll bargain for a whole fleet of ships to pick us up. And they'll do it.
KIRK: Yes, I suppose they would.
TRACEY: We've got to stay alive. Let the Yangs kill us and destroy what we have to offer and we'll have committed a crime against all humanity. I'd say that's slightly more important than the Prime Directive, wouldn't you, Jim?
I'm fine with giving Tracey a couple of points for trying to secure a find that could be of benefit for the Federation.
But it doesn't stop there. He wants to "bargain" and cash in some kind of reward.
I can't see any altruist motivations on behalf of the Kohms.
But it's admittedly more comfortable (= effective) for Dr. McCoy to work sitting on a chair at a table trying to isolate the immunising agent Tracey hopes to find.
Bob
How long do Yangs live?
There is no indication they have a long life. Tracey never spoke to them, and they are not cooperative in any way.
He has no idea if they can be used. All he knows is Kohms live longer and Yangs are going to kill them all. It's a huge, and unfounded, assumption that Yangs even live that long, much less that Tracey can know that they live long.
Also, why did Tracey have to kill anyone? Phasers stun.
There's no tactical advantage to stunning them. You'd have to stun the same people over and over again.
^^ However, Tracey could have just stunned Lt. Galloway who had already been critically wounded. When he vaporized Galloway, not only did he commit an act of murder against a fellow Starfleet officer but he deprived imself of a phaser he needed so badly.
Which reminds me of an unsettling observation by Spock in "The Omega Glory":
SPOCK: However, he was less than truthful in one very important matter.
KIRK: Phaser power packs.
SPOCK: Captain Tracey's reserve belt packs. Empty. Found among the remains of several hundred Yang bodies.
I don't know what's more remarkable: That Spock actually had the time to find two phaser power packs among "several hundred bodies" or that Tracey carried these with him in the first place (I don't recall any away mission where they carried reserve power packs).
Let's just hope for Tracey that his away team members beaming back aboard the Exeter where eventually accounted for...
Bob
Which reminds me of an unsettling observation by Spock in "The Omega Glory":
SPOCK: However, he was less than truthful in one very important matter.
KIRK: Phaser power packs.
SPOCK: Captain Tracey's reserve belt packs. Empty. Found among the remains of several hundred Yang bodies.
I don't know what's more remarkable: That Spock actually had the time to find two phaser power packs among "several hundred bodies" or that Tracey carried these with him in the first place (I don't recall any away mission where they carried reserve power packs).
Let's just hope for Tracey that his away team members beaming back aboard the Exeter where eventually accounted for...
Bob
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