TOS Klingons vs John M.Ford's Klingons

[Timo]

Except that's not how empires work.

Well, they sorta do: the Romans never stooped to using foreign troops until there was no Rome any more (that is, when various Germanic tribes finally made up 99% of the military, the capital of the "empire" was Milan, Ravenna or some obscure village up north or whatever, depending on the day of the week or whom you asked). And the US empire doesn't fight with foreign troops, either, having burned its fingers a couple of times trying to do so.

The idea of an empire that doesn't allow its subjects to serve in its military makes about as much sense as an empire that doesn't allow its subjects to pay taxes.

You mean Romans again?

The Arne Darvin dilemma always weighed in on my mind whenever I thought about it. It seemed plain to me that if Klingons could at least superficially impersonate humans (less the presence of a medical tricorder or similar scanning device), then at least a portion of the overall Klingon population must be naturally human (or close to it) in appearance.

TOS did not enjoy advanced makeup ot VFX methods or big budgets, but it was trivial to perform futuristic or alien "extreme makeup trickery" nevertheless - shapeshifters could shift and holographic illusions could appear and disappear via simple editing and dialogue means. Making an alien look like human could easily be accepted as another "in-universe trick", a feat achieved by futuristic alien technologies even when it's the cheapest sort of stage magic in our reality.

That would be to the advantage of TOS, really. Whenever the heroes can point to a prop and say "that's a hologram" or mime a bump into an invisible obstacle and shout "a forcefield blocks our way!", it makes the TOS universe seem more interesting, futuristic and alien - even when there's no pressing in-story need for futurism and an object can simply be a physical object, an impassable obstacle can be a solid wall rather than a forcefield, and an alien looking like human can simply come from a species that naturally looks like humans.

That's it. No one goes "those are Klingons."

True enough. Of course, nobody would go "those are Klingons" even if they were, but the door indeed is open to all sorts of interesting alternate interpretations...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lt. Tyler]

My biggest question always was how did the Federation know the ridged forehead Klingons were actually Klingons at the beginning of Star Trek :The Motion Picture?? With the exception of them seeing the 3 Klingon battle cruisers. They recognized them instantly when they showed them on there monitors at Epsilon Nine. What happened in those 2 and a half years when all the Federation only saw the smooth headed Klingons in the TOS??

No one specifically identifties the Klingons as Klingons in the film. The closest we get is when the Epsilon Nine computer translates the phrase "Imperial Klingon cruiser Amar", and then this...

LIEUT.: Our sensor drone is intercepting this on Quad L fourteen.
BRANCH: That's within Klingon boundaries. Who are they fighting?​

That's it. No one goes "those are Klingons."

Excellent point. That's very interesting.

 

[Terok Nor]

I never understood why it was necessary to create "fusions" in the first place. Why couldn't the Klingons be a multi-racial society? Having "fusions" is an interesting thought, but I regarded the humanlike Klingons vs. the tire-tread-headed Klingons in the mid-1980s much like what the TNG movies did with Romulans and Remans, or what the Xindi did with Insectoids, Aquatics and Primates.

That would've been a great idea, and it's how I wish it would've been done. Unfortunately, there's a pervasive trend of racial essentialism in Trek and other science fiction, an assumption that species identity is the same as national or cultural identity. Every alien group's name is assumed to be a species name rather than a nationality. (Even the Xindi were related species from the same planet.)

It's particularly frustrating with alien empires, because the very word "empire" refers to a multicultural state with one culture ruling over others and drawing on their wealth, resources, and labor. So all these space "empires" that only consist of a single species are problematical.

I agree. It would be nice if the new series went in this direction with the alien races we meet.

I also agree with Wingsley in that I didn't see the need for an explanation for the TOS Klingons looking different to TMP Klingons. Once there had been 6 movies and 5 seasons of TNG without an explanation it became irrelevant. It was simple to assume they were multi-racial and forget about it. I think once Kor, Kang and Koloth were shown with ridges on DS9 that was the end of that and it's no wonder some fans demanded an explanation.

 

[Christopher]

The Arne Darvin dilemma always weighed in on my mind whenever I thought about it. It seemed plain to me that if Klingons could at least superficially impersonate humans (less the presence of a medical tricorder or similar scanning device), then at least a portion of the overall Klingon population must be naturally human (or close to it) in appearance.

Or else Darvin was a ridged Klingon who got cosmetic surgery. That's the approach IDW Comics took in its Klingons: Blood Will Tell miniseries -- which struck me as odd, because surely it would've been simpler to recruit a smooth-headed Klingon to pass as human. Some of them, like Kras, Koloth, and Korax, already looked pretty much indistinguishable from humans.

I also agree with Wingsley in that I didn't see the need for an explanation for the TOS Klingons looking different to TMP Klingons. Once there had been 6 movies and 5 seasons of TNG without an explanation it became irrelevant. It was simple to assume they were multi-racial and forget about it. I think once Kor, Kang and Koloth were shown with ridges on DS9 that was the end of that and it's no wonder some fans demanded an explanation.

Well, fans were seeking explanations for the differences long before "Blood Oath" aired. But I think that at the time of "Blood Oath," the producers were implicitly going with Roddenberry's take that the Klingons had always had ridges despite how they were depicted in TOS. The implication was, "This is what Kor, Kang, and Koloth really looked like, and it should supersede how they were portrayed before." (And if you look closely, those three's makeup is actually a bit different from the usual Michael Westmore Klingon makeup, with slightly subtler ridges and a less receded hairline, as sort of a concession to their TOS appearance.) But once they decided to use TOS footage in "Trials and Tribble-ations," they were forced to acknowledge smooth-headed Klingons as a canonical reality.

 

[Timo]

My preferred interpretation, after ST:TMP gave us the ridges but before TNG introduced Alexander: the ridges only develop with age. When Kirk triumphed over Klingon warriors, he was besting teenagers who had been sent to the far fringes of the Empire in the most expendable starships available, to engage in those efforts the least likely to succeed...

For all we know, Kirk was Starfleet's fire-with-fire response, a kid barely worth two solid strips in his sleeve and a good candidate for probing the deadly Galactic Barrier in a decades-old second-rate vessel.

Oh, well. "Fusions" is basically what ENT describes, too: the smooth foreheads were the direct result of Klingons trying to benefit from fusing with (super)humans. For all we know, similar experiments produced the lobster-headed ST:TMP Klingons, equally ridiculed by the Imperial Race.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

And then there's this dialog from Trials snd Tribble-ations:

WORF: His real name is Arne Darvin. He is a Klingon altered to look human.
DAX: His surgeon does nice work.

I think the IDW comic ran with that idea, even though any Klingons of the time that we saw in TOS could have passed for human with some behavior changes, human clothing, and an eyebrow trim (and maybe reducing the green pigment that was present in the darker greasepaint makeup).

Kor

 

[Mysterion]

Too bad we didn't get the Phase II series in the 70's and the episode Kitumba. I imagine that would have sent depictions of the Klingons and their empire a different direction in the 80's and forward.

 

[Tim Thomason]

But once they decided to use TOS footage in "Trials and Tribble-ations," they were forced to acknowledge smooth-headed Klingons as a canonical reality.

They shouldn't have brought Worf along. Or maybe just give Michael Dorn unexplained TOS makeup. ("You look different, Worf." "What do you mean?" "Um, nevermind. Anyone else feel dizzy?").

And then there's this dialog from Trials snd Tribble-ations:

WORF: His real name is Arne Darvin. He is a Klingon altered to look human.
DAX: His surgeon does nice work.

Well his "real name" is most likely not Arne Darvin (unless he was recruited for having a human-sounding name). It's possible that Worf got both datapoints wrong. Dax, who is undoubtedly familiar with smooth-headed Klingons, was probably working under the assumption that Darvin was a relatively recent Klingon alteration, not from 100 years prior.

I think most Klingons in the 23rd century are genetic hybrids, externally humanesque, but still possessing much of the Klingon internal anatomy. Darvin may have been a smoothie, but he might have gone through a lot of internal surgery to remove excess organs, change out his blood type, rejigger his heart valves, what have you. It didn't fool the tribbles, and it didn't fool McCoy (based purely on heartbeat and body temperature), but it might have been the maximum possible to fool most 23rd century scans and lifesign metrics.

I'm still confused as to why old Darvin attempted to order a raktajino from the K7 bar.

 

[Christopher]

Well his "real name" is most likely not Arne Darvin (unless he was recruited for having a human-sounding name).

According to Klingons: Blood Will Tell, his real name was Gralmek. Federation: The First 150 Years called him Kron.

I think most Klingons in the 23rd century are genetic hybrids, externally humanesque, but still possessing much of the Klingon internal anatomy.

Per "Divergence," only "millions" of Klingons were changed. Presumably most remained ridged. If you think about it, the only Klingons we saw in TOS were one very narrow segment of the population, namely the crews of battleships and occupation forces on the Federation front. There's no reason to assume they were a representative sample of the Empire's overall population.

I'm still confused as to why old Darvin attempted to order a raktajino from the K7 bar.

Because he was thirsty? Or sleepy?

 

[Tim Thomason]

According to Klingons: Blood Will Tell, his real name was Gralmek. Federation: The First 150 Years called him Kron.

Clearly not canon, because according to Worf, his real name was Arne Darvin. (joke - I'm familiar with Blood Will Tell's interpretation).

Per "Divergence," only "millions" of Klingons were changed. Presumably most remained ridged. If you think about it, the only Klingons we saw in TOS were one very narrow segment of the population, namely the crews of battleships and occupation forces on the Federation front. There's no reason to assume they were a representative sample of the Empire's overall population.

I actually meant most of the smoothies (QuchHa'), the ones infected by the virus and their offspring. I think even a large majority of them probably got surgery, and it's probably just a small subset culture (mostly on the frontlines) who have decided to accept their appearance as some type of trial to be taken until a real cure can be found.

I'm still confused as to why old Darvin attempted to order a raktajino from the K7 bar.

Because he was thirsty? Or sleepy?

This was my attempt at another joke. Darvin should've known or suspected that K7 wouldn't have raktajinos, and definitely wouldn't want to tip his hat again that he wasn't entirely human.

But then again, he wasn't that good of a spy the first time, buckling under pressure when confronted by Kirk (Tribbles can't hurt that bad!).

 

[Kor]

He's probably so used to it being a common drink in the 24th century that he just ordered it without thinking.

As L.P. Hartley wrote, "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

Kor

 

[Christopher]

I actually meant most of the smoothies (QuchHa'), the ones infected by the virus and their offspring. I think even a large majority of them probably got surgery, and it's probably just a small subset culture (mostly on the frontlines) who have decided to accept their appearance as some type of trial to be taken until a real cure can be found.

Well... If you read my upcoming Rise of the Federation: Live By the Code, you may rethink that.

This was my attempt at another joke. Darvin should've known or suspected that K7 wouldn't have raktajinos, and definitely wouldn't want to tip his hat again that he wasn't entirely human.

Except that, according to Marc Okrand's Klingon For the Galactic Traveler, raktajino is a human beverage. See, the Klingons got coffee from humans through trade or plunder, then bred it into a more potent strain (which they call qa'vIn) and started mixing it with alcohol, which they called ra'taj (Anglicized as "raktaj"). Then humans found out about it and developed a non-alcoholic version using steamed milk -- essentially a raktaj cappuccino, or raktajino for short.

So Darvin, being of Klingon origin, would probably see raktajino as a human thing. So he could've forgotten that its origins were partly Klingon and that it might not have caught on among humans yet in the 2260s.

 

[Kor]

Earlier in "Trials and Tribble-ations," in the 24th century scenes, Darvin ordered a Raktajino from a replicator and said "At least they [the Klingons] know how to make coffee."

When were humans supposed to have developed the Raktajino?
In the 23rd-century scenes, the 2260s Klingons kept trying to order them.

Odo: Who ordered raktajino?
Waitress: The Klingons.
Odo: Klingons?
Waitress: Over there, and over there.

So somehow the Klingons of that time period were familiar with it. But maybe they perceived it as a human beverage, and expected it to exist at a station run by humans.

Kor

 

[Lt. Tyler]

OK certainly an extremely interesting discussion. Now I am going to pose another question. Since the events of Star Trek:First Contact created ENT, wouldn't the events/explanation that we see in Affliction and Divergence about the Klingons not apply to the original the TOS timeline? In other words, would there be an entirely difference reason for the TOS Klingons to have smooth heads to have existed on the original timeline before the Borg went back in time to 2063 and Enterprise E following them changing things and making themselves known to Cochrane and taking Lily Sloane on board and so on?

 

[Kor]

OK certainly extremely interesting discussion. Now I am going to pose another question. Since the events of Star Trek:First Contact created ENT, wouldn't the events/explanation that we see in Affliction and Divergence about the Klingons not apply to the original the TOS timeline? In other words, would there be an entirely difference reason for the TOS Klingons to have smooth heads to have existed on the original timeline before the Borg went back in time to 2063 and Enterprise E followed them changing things and also making themselves known to Cochrane and taking Lily Sloane on board?

The whole purpose of that ENT story arc was to explain the existence of smooth-headed Klingons in TOS. So I don't see why it wouldn't apply.

Kor

 

[Lt. Tyler]

OK certainly extremely interesting discussion. Now I am going to pose another question. Since the events of Star Trek:First Contact created ENT, wouldn't the events/explanation that we see in Affliction and Divergence about the Klingons not apply to the original the TOS timeline? In other words, would there be an entirely difference reason for the TOS Klingons to have smooth heads to have existed on the original timeline before the Borg went back in time to 2063 and Enterprise E followed them changing things and also making themselves known to Cochrane and taking Lily Sloane on board?

The whole purpose of that ENT story arc was to explain the existence of smooth-headed Klingons in TOS. So I don't see why it wouldn't apply.

Kor

Well how could the story arc apply if all of the events of the 4 seasons of ENT never even originally took place in the TOS universe? Because on the original timeline the Borg and Enterprise E did not go back into time and effectively create ENT to begin with. Hence the original timeline had the Cochrane warp test flight of the Phoenix carried out all by Cochrane himself not with Riker and Geordi sitting there and without the help of the Enterprise E. The Enterprise E and crew or the Borg for that matter originally not being there at all.

 

[Shawnster]

OK certainly an extremely interesting discussion. Now I am going to pose another question. Since the events of Star Trek:First Contact created ENT, wouldn't the events/explanation that we see in Affliction and Divergence about the Klingons not apply to the original the TOS timeline? In other words, would there be an entirely difference reason for the TOS Klingons to have smooth heads to have existed on the original timeline before the Borg went back in time to 2063 and Enterprise E following them changing things and making themselves known to Cochrane and taking Lily Sloane on board and so on?

I think it's just fanon that has made Enterprise an alternate timeline divergent from ST:FC. It's my understanding the producers of Enterprise never intended for such.

Case in point is the last episode which is supposed to be a holodeck recreation of Riker's aboard the Enterprise D. Since Riker, the E-D and the events of the TNG episode "Pegasus" take place in our timeline, and Riker was reviewing historical information from the NX-01, it it clear that those historical events were to take place in the same timeline.

 

[Lt. Tyler]

OK certainly an extremely interesting discussion. Now I am going to pose another question. Since the events of Star Trek:First Contact created ENT, wouldn't the events/explanation that we see in Affliction and Divergence about the Klingons not apply to the original the TOS timeline? In other words, would there be an entirely difference reason for the TOS Klingons to have smooth heads to have existed on the original timeline before the Borg went back in time to 2063 and Enterprise E following them changing things and making themselves known to Cochrane and taking Lily Sloane on board and so on?

I think it's just fanon that has made Enterprise an alternate timeline divergent from ST:FC. It's my understanding the producers of Enterprise never intended for such.

Case in point is the last episode which is supposed to be a holodeck recreation of Riker's aboard the Enterprise D. Since Riker, the E-D and the events of the TNG episode "Pegasus" take place in our timeline, and Riker was reviewing historical information from the NX-01, it it clear that those historical events were to take place in the same timeline.

We are seeing an alternate timeline being played out with Riker and Troi in the final episode of These Are The Voyages. That is what I am saying everything changed after First Contact. Plus Riker and Troi were a lot older in appearance as well in that episode aboard Enterprise D then they were on the original timeline before the events of First Contact.

 

[Christopher]

OK certainly an extremely interesting discussion. Now I am going to pose another question. Since the events of Star Trek:First Contact created ENT, wouldn't the events/explanation that we see in Affliction and Divergence about the Klingons not apply to the original the TOS timeline? In other words, would there be an entirely difference reason for the TOS Klingons to have smooth heads to have existed on the original timeline before the Borg went back in time to 2063 and Enterprise E following them changing things and making themselves known to Cochrane and taking Lily Sloane on board and so on?

Of course not. The only thing that the events of FC affected was the episode "Regeneration." There's no reason the rest of the history would've proceeded any differently. The Klingon Augment virus was developed from the DNA of the Augments from the 1990s Eugenics Wars, 17 decades before First Contact.

Well how could the story arc apply if all of the events of the 4 seasons of ENT never even originally took place in the TOS universe? Because on the original timeline the Borg and Enterprise E did not go back into time and effectively create ENT to begin with. Hence the original timeline had the Cochrane warp test flight of the Phoenix carried out all by Cochrane himself not with Riker and Geordi sitting there and without the help of the Enterprise E. The Enterprise E and crew or the Borg for that matter originally not being there at all.

You have completely and utterly misunderstood the creators' intention behind Enterprise. It was never meant to be some new alternate timeline; it was meant to be the origin story for the Trek universe we had always known. The Internet fiction that it's an alternate timeline is based on an excessively literal reading of the details, leading some people to mistake differences in interpretation of the universe between different productions for differences in the actual events of the universe.

I mean, the very premise you're positing here is self-contradictory. You're asking how the smooth-headed Klingons would've been created in the "original" timeline. But ENT would've had no reason to do a story about the origin of smooth-headed Klingons in the first place if it hadn't been meant to lead into the version of TOS that we've always known. The fact that they did it at all is proof that ENT was intended to be a prequel to TOS itself, and to TNG and DS9 and VGR. It was not an attempt to create an alternate history through time travel. The Abramsverse was the first attempt to do that.

 

[Lt. Tyler]

The original history before the events of First Contact, Cochrane made the first warp test flight by himself without the assistance of the Enterprise crew. His entire ground crew was not killed off by the Borg.Therefore First Contact represents a change in the timeline. The reason why the NX-01 was named Enterprise was because Deena told Cochrane the name of the ship through the telescope. It would be logical to assume that Cochrane wanted the first NX ship to be named Enterprise as he worked on the NX project. In the original timeline there was obviously no NX shipped named Enterprise. Anyhow what I am saying is that the original timeline was erased by the Borgs Time Incursion into the past and established a new timeline. Hence, ENT was born. I am looking at in-universe events not saying that Berman and Bragga intentionally wanted to create an alternate timeline like JJ Abrams. Although I believe I did read that Bragga stated something like that after the first season of ENT and only in the later seasons he went back on that and tried to link ENT with TOS more closely.