TOS Klingons vs John M.Ford's Klingons
- Thread starter Lt. Tyler
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Everything? The TOS Klingons really didn't get any depth. We knew next to nothing about them or their culture. Other than they were Eeeeeeviiiil!!!!
For one thing, the TOS Klingons would've been Klingon-human "fusions" in Ford's interpretation, one of their various genetically engineered hybrid subspecies -- his explanation for the lack of ridges. The movie-style ridged Klingons were "Imperial" Klingons. As I recall, they created fusions with other races and used them to deal with those races, on the principle that they'd be better equipped to understand them. Sort of a variant of Imperial China's "Use barbarians to deal with barbarians" policy, in which foreigners assimilated into imperial civilization were used as diplomats and intermediaries with other cultures. Although obviously the "fusion" Klingons were not diplomats.
Enormously. I've seen it argued that Ford's Klingons had far more in common with the Cardassians than with the TNG-era Klingons. Which, by the way, had their essential traits established by other authors such as Maurice Hurley ("Heart of Glory"), Burton Armus ("A Matter of Honor"), and Richard Manning & Hans Beimler ("The Emissary") before Moore joined the writing staff.
Enormously. I've seen it argued that Ford's Klingons had far more in common with the Cardassians than with the TNG-era Klingons. Which, by the way, had their essential traits established by other authors such as Maurice Hurley ("Heart of Glory"), Burton Armus ("A Matter of Honor"), and Richard Manning & Hans Beimler ("The Emissary") before Moore joined the writing staff.
Well, Worf and pals do sing and act opera, which is a bit unexpected, too.
I don't see the massive "differences" or "contradictions", as alien species necessarily are vague, little described for the supposed vastness of an entire multicultural species and its long history. Ford and TNG both show a violent species where longevity might be the norm if not for constant fighting and infighting and scheming for abstract reasons of family and glory and hierarchical honor. Ford just shows the quiet and contemplative ones up close, while TNG gives us Fordian Marines...
Timo Saloniemi
I don't see the massive "differences" or "contradictions", as alien species necessarily are vague, little described for the supposed vastness of an entire multicultural species and its long history. Ford and TNG both show a violent species where longevity might be the norm if not for constant fighting and infighting and scheming for abstract reasons of family and glory and hierarchical honor. Ford just shows the quiet and contemplative ones up close, while TNG gives us Fordian Marines...
Timo Saloniemi
Swear to god when I read the Thread title, I thought it was comparing "our" Klingons to theoretical ones as envisioned by John Ford, the director, as in "Stagecoach" and his other great Westerns. 
"Dem Cling-ons is stealin' all a' are livestock and wooin' all a' are wimmin! Bedder git th' Sheriff a'fore we got nuthin' left!"
Sorry for the derail!
"Dem Cling-ons is stealin' all a' are livestock and wooin' all a' are wimmin! Bedder git th' Sheriff a'fore we got nuthin' left!"
Sorry for the derail!
JMF's Klingons were an awesome extrapolation of what we saw in TOS and the first three movies.
Swear to god when I read the Thread title, I thought it was comparing "our" Klingons to theoretical ones as envisioned by John Ford, the director, as in "Stagecoach" and his other great Westerns.
"Dem Cling-ons is stealin' all a' are livestock and wooin' all a' are wimmin! Bedder git th' Sheriff a'fore we got nuthin' left!"
Sorry for the derail!
I'd watch The Quiet Klingon.
Swear to god when I read the Thread title, I thought it was comparing "our" Klingons to theoretical ones as envisioned by John Ford, the director, as in "Stagecoach" and his other great Westerns.
I would imagine that's the reason John M. Ford used his middle initial in his byline -- to distinguish himself from the director.
Swear to god when I read the Thread title, I thought it was comparing "our" Klingons to theoretical ones as envisioned by John Ford, the director, as in "Stagecoach" and his other great Westerns.
"Dem Cling-ons is stealin' all a' are livestock and wooin' all a' are wimmin! Bedder git th' Sheriff a'fore we got nuthin' left!"
Sorry for the derail!
I'd watch The Quiet Klingon.
Great idea for some Klingon Karacter development!
Now that would be something. Can you imagine a Klingon being told to mind his Patty fingers? The pub scene, and the cottage encounter are...different in my mind, now.
I never understood why it was necessary to create "fusions" in the first place. Why couldn't the Klingons be a multi-racial society? Having "fusions" is an interesting thought, but I regarded the humanlike Klingons vs. the tire-tread-headed Klingons in the mid-1980s much like what the TNG movies did with Romulans and Remans, or what the Xindi did with Insectoids, Aquatics and Primates.
That would've been a great idea, and it's how I wish it would've been done. Unfortunately, there's a pervasive trend of racial essentialism in Trek and other science fiction, an assumption that species identity is the same as national or cultural identity. Every alien group's name is assumed to be a species name rather than a nationality. (Even the Xindi were related species from the same planet.)
It's particularly frustrating with alien empires, because the very word "empire" refers to a multicultural state with one culture ruling over others and drawing on their wealth, resources, and labor. So all these space "empires" that only consist of a single species are problematical.
Ignoring modern Trek, TOS did establish the Klingon Empire to be bent on conquest. Perhaps they didn't allow their subject races to serve in the space-going military.
The "Romulan Star Empire" is a little more problematic if they are hemmed into a small area of space with only two planets.
Maybe it's a case of an empire that was established on their home planet, and they just kept the name when they went out into space.
Imagine if Imperial China had conquered all of earth, and then created a space program and colonized other planets, but didn't actually subjugate any alien races. Couldn't they still call themselves an empire?
And even in earth's history, there were examples of countries that called themselves "empires" in order to assert their independence, but didn't really have dominion over anything but their own country's territory (and in some cases were really being manipulated by more powerful countries).
Kor
The "Romulan Star Empire" is a little more problematic if they are hemmed into a small area of space with only two planets.
Maybe it's a case of an empire that was established on their home planet, and they just kept the name when they went out into space.
Imagine if Imperial China had conquered all of earth, and then created a space program and colonized other planets, but didn't actually subjugate any alien races. Couldn't they still call themselves an empire?
And even in earth's history, there were examples of countries that called themselves "empires" in order to assert their independence, but didn't really have dominion over anything but their own country's territory (and in some cases were really being manipulated by more powerful countries).
Kor
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My biggest question always was how did the Federation know the ridged forehead Klingons were actually Klingons at the beginning of Star Trek :The Motion Picture?? With the exception of them seeing the 3 Klingon battle cruisers. They recognized them instantly when they showed them on there monitors at Epsilon Nine. What happened in those 2 and a half years when all the Federation only saw the smooth headed Klingons in the TOS?? It is almost like TMP takes place in a separate universe from TOS. With Vulcan having moons too.
Except that's not how empires work. Empires throughout history have used their subject races as cannon fodder in the military, because they consider those lives more expendable. The whole thing that an empire is about, sociologically speaking, is one state exploiting the resources and personnel of other societies, and a military demands a lot of personnel. The idea of an empire that doesn't allow its subjects to serve in its military makes about as much sense as an empire that doesn't allow its subjects to pay taxes.
This is one of the reasons I like Nemesis -- because it finally showed the Romulan Empire actually functioning like an empire, using a subject race as cannon fodder in its military.
Theoretically, maybe, but that's just rationalizing a bad idea. It would've been a better idea if they'd portrayed interstellar empires in a more realistic, multicultural way from the start. As Wingsley said, the Klingons could've been established as a multispecies society, with "Klingon" as the name of the civilization rather than of a biological species. Or, as I suggested recently in another thread, "Klingon" could've been more of a religious label -- a term adopted by anyone, regardless of species, who chooses to live by the precepts of Kahless.
In Gene Roddenberry's novelization of TMP, he adopted the conceit that he was a 23rd-century producer who'd made TOS as an "inaccurately larger-than-life" dramatization of the "real" adventures of the Enterprise, and that TMP was (partly in response to Kirk's criticisms) an attempt to portray things more accurately. In speaking to fans at conventions about the Klingons' change, Roddenberry asked them to accept that the Klingons had always looked this way, but TOS just hadn't been able to show them correctly.
So, yes, to an extent, it was a "separate universe," or rather a modified interpretation of the universe. TOS was produced under quite a lot of budgetary, logistical, technological, and other constraints, and thus often fell short of what Roddenberry wished he could have achieved. So he approached his later productions (TMP and TNG) with the mindset that this was his chance to improve on that first effort and come closer to achieving his vision. Which means that he wasn't attached to the specific details of TOS and was perfectly happy to retcon or ignore them as he saw fit.
Of course, modern Trek canon has codified the idea that both ridged and smooth-headed Klingons existed. Enterprise: "Affliction" and "Divergence" established that millions of Klingons lost their ridges, but that was a fraction of the entire population of the Empire. So even in TOS, most Klingons had ridges; we just didn't see them in the crews of the ships Kirk encountered. (Which fits pretty well with Ford's idea that the Empire used Klingon-human fusions to interact with the Federation. It also fits with the historical reality of empires using less valued subject peoples as expendable frontline troops.)
The Arne Darvin dilemma always weighed in on my mind whenever I thought about it. It seemed plain to me that if Klingons could at least superficially impersonate humans (less the presence of a medical tricorder or similar scanning device), then at least a portion of the overall Klingon population must be naturally human (or close to it) in appearance.
In TMP6 (T.U.C.), we got to see much more lavish costumes and makeup, and it seemed to open the door (just a crack) that not all Klingons had Goodyear Off-Road treads on the crowns of their heads. I imagined, in my own selfish and possibly delusional non-Hollyweird interpretation, that this was the final signal that the Klingon Empire was indeed a multi-world entity, with several (if not numerous) species contained therein. When we saw Worf de-evolve into some weird reptilian-like ancestor in TNG's "Genesis" later on, I imagined that just as the Federation and Dominion encompassed multiple lifeforms, so the Klingon Empire may have members that looked (at least a little) like "cave Worf".
I guess that was just my over-active imagination.
BTW: I thought Ford's novel was the epitome of cool at that time, even though I did not understand some of the strange nuances of his version of Klingon society. I wonder if any of his ideas could ever have been translated into TV or movie productions. Probably not...
In TMP6 (T.U.C.), we got to see much more lavish costumes and makeup, and it seemed to open the door (just a crack) that not all Klingons had Goodyear Off-Road treads on the crowns of their heads. I imagined, in my own selfish and possibly delusional non-Hollyweird interpretation, that this was the final signal that the Klingon Empire was indeed a multi-world entity, with several (if not numerous) species contained therein. When we saw Worf de-evolve into some weird reptilian-like ancestor in TNG's "Genesis" later on, I imagined that just as the Federation and Dominion encompassed multiple lifeforms, so the Klingon Empire may have members that looked (at least a little) like "cave Worf".
I guess that was just my over-active imagination.
BTW: I thought Ford's novel was the epitome of cool at that time, even though I did not understand some of the strange nuances of his version of Klingon society. I wonder if any of his ideas could ever have been translated into TV or movie productions. Probably not...
Looking at it from a purely in-universe perspective, it seems that there could be an untold story there. I always liked Chris Claremont's suggestion in the comic book Debt of Honor that the Empire discommoded all of the smooth-headed Klingons as a race. It was a nice, simple solution that used the facts as we knew them in 1991.
That, or the TOS Enterprise just encountered the bumpy-headed Klingons on missions that all happened off-screen.
No one specifically identifties the Klingons as Klingons in the film. The closest we get is when the Epsilon Nine computer translates the phrase "Imperial Klingon cruiser Amar", and then this...
LIEUT.: Our sensor drone is intercepting this on Quad L fourteen.
BRANCH: That's within Klingon boundaries. Who are they fighting?
That's it. No one goes "those are Klingons."BRANCH: That's within Klingon boundaries. Who are they fighting?
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