TOS Enterprise vs. Refit/A...scale?

[lomitus]

Hey Ya'll...
Not sure if I'm posting this in the right forum since it actually pertains to my little art project, so moderators please feel free to move this if there's somewhere more appropriate...thanks!

Alrighty...not sure if this was ever addressed in Trek lore, let alone any official canon, however...anyone know the specific difference in size between the Enterprise as she was seen in the original series and the refit and/or 1701A as seen in the movies? The term "refit" seems to suggest there shouldn't have been too much change in physical size from stem to stern, but......

Thanks!

(p.s. any image references would be helpful...thanks!)

 

[Sans]

Take a lookie here Ex Astris Scientia - The Enterprise Refit of 2271

 

[lomitus]

Not exactly what I was looking for...but close enough. According to that webpage at least, there's only a 16m difference in length, which is basically what I needed to know (I should be able to guesstimate the rest).

Thanks!

 

[Galileo7]

Take a lookie here Ex Astris Scientia - The Enterprise Refit of 2271

Star Trek:Voyager "Q2" episode establishes canon that James T. Kirk's five-year mission ended in 2270...not 2269.
So the two and half years that Kirk was head of Starfleet operations as Admiral including the eighteen month 1701-refit would be completed would approximately set Star Trek:TMP in late 2272 or 2273...not 2271.

 

[Forbin]

As originally built, she was 947 feet long. The refit comes in at an even thousand (well, 305 meters).

 

[T'Girl]

Star Trek:Voyager "Q2" episode establishes canon that James T. Kirk's five-year mission ended in 2270...not 2269.
So the two and half years that Kirk was head of Starfleet operations as Admiral including the eighteen month 1701-refit would be completed would approximately set Star Trek:TMP in late 2272 or 2273...not 2271.

And Galileo7, how much time past between the end of the 5 yr mission and Kirk becoming chief of operations? One day, or perhaps several years?

Also, as far as Voyager stating 2270, Starfleet is notoriously bad at record keeping.

.

 

[Galileo7]

And Galileo7, how much time past between the end of the 5 yr mission and Kirk becoming chief of operations? One day, or perhaps several years?

Also, as far as Voyager stating 2270, Starfleet is notoriously bad at record keeping.

.

True, maybe several years have past before Kirk's Admiral appointment and the beginning of the 1701-refit eighteen months.
I just think at the earliest it can be is 2272 or 2273, if it happened immediately after the five year mission ended and the latest it can be is several years before the events of WOK.
"Q2" statement is canon 2270 IMHO.

 

[Timo]

Well, a "2271 refit" is certainly plausible there - it just happened to begin in 2271, being completed in 2272 or 2273.

We have little onscreen idea of the exact size of the TOS ship, other than the doubly wonky relationship between the shuttlecraft and the shuttlebay doors, and the shuttlecraft and the heroes. But we get a pretty accurate idea of the exact scale of the movie ship thanks to observing up close those docking rings, both as elements in the model and as elements in the sets. There's little reason to disbelieve in the 305 m size there - and the classic figure for the TOS ship is certainly acceptable in light of this, although we could adjust it either way by a dozen meters easily enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Galileo7]

Well, a "2271 refit" is certainly plausible there - it just happened to begin in 2271, being completed in 2272 or 2273.
...
Timo Saloniemi

Agree. True, began in 2271 and TMP in 2272 or 2273.

 

[Mytran]

We have little onscreen idea of the exact size of the TOS ship, other than the doubly wonky relationship between the shuttlecraft and the shuttlebay doors, and the shuttlecraft and the heroes. But we get a pretty accurate idea of the exact scale of the movie ship thanks to observing up close those docking rings, both as elements in the model and as elements in the sets. There's little reason to disbelieve in the 305 m size there - and the classic figure for the TOS ship is certainly acceptable in light of this, although we could adjust it either way by a dozen meters easily enough.

With regards to the TOS-E, the height of the corridor sets and the aforementioned shuttlebay issue, I'm much more comfortable with an overall length in the region of 1,250'.
With regards the refit, no-one on screen ever said that it was bigger than the original - in fact, with the narrower corridors and lower ceilings all point to a smaller ship. The way I see it, the TOS-E was basically stripped down, streamlined and the outdated bulky equipment replaced with top-of-the-line systems that required much less space. The result is a ship around 1,100' - smaller, faster and more advanced than the original.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah, issue here is whether you accept the official size figures for the ships or not. Ultimately, movie magic is abound - forced-perspective sets (TOS/TMP engineering), miniatures (TOS shuttlebay), matte paintings (TMP cargo decks), artistic license (78 decks on the Enterprise-A, one for each TOS episode), filming limitations (reused TNG sets in later TOS movies, constantly modified sets between movies) etc make a positive determination of how big the ships are supposed to be impossible. IMO you have the official size it's supposed to be, and everything aims to create the illusion of that.

 

[Maurice]

^^^ If you take the angled beams and wall panels out, the corridors are basically the same width as the originals, as can be seen at the intersections, so they're occupying as much space as the TOS version even if the usable space is diminished.

 

[Push The Button]

I just watched TMP the other day. The Ship of Theseus indeed. The only recognizable pieces from the pre-refit ship are the transporter pads (which were moved from the floor to the ceiling), Uhura's bluetooth earpiece, and several communications equipment sounds.

I mean, I know that it is the same ship, but I would have liked to see a little more of the original, somewhere, maybe even just the dedication plaque that was next to the bridge turbolift door.

 

[Mytran]

^^^ If you take the angled beams and wall panels out, the corridors are basically the same width as the originals, as can be seen at the intersections, so they're occupying as much space as the TOS version even if the usable space is diminished.

Agreed that the widths are the same, but the height, radius and useable space are all reduced. This creates the feel of a more cramped, smaller ship than TOS (even if that wasn't the creators' intention)

 

[Timo]

That is the effect we'd get if Starfleet took the old ship and installed more equipment in the existing spaces...

Timo saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

The question is - why would they bother? The existing corridor setup worked fine for 25 years so presumably there's already sufficient storage space on board, without making the corridors harder to traverse.
If that space were reduced however (like by scaling down the size of the vessel) then suddenly some additional cavities would be required, so it becomes worth the bother of installing all those K-beams and aluminium panels :-)

 

[Timo]

The question is - why would they bother? The existing corridor setup worked fine for 25 years so presumably there's already sufficient storage space on board, without making the corridors harder to traverse.

Supposedly, making the ship better involves installing new equipment, and it has to go somewhere. That's how refitting often proceeds ITRW: a ship, house or aircraft formerly rather spacious gets crammed chock full of new stuff, while little of the old stuff gets removed (or if it does, the new stuff doesn't fit in those spaces anyway, but requires all-new cowlings).

Installing new gear in all-new housings in formerly "empty" spaces would in all likelihood be massively simpler and faster than trying to cram them into existing machinery spaces.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

In some cases, true. However, TMP treats us to multiple scenes of large, open spaces on board the refit Enterprise, suggesting that formerly occupied areas gave been freed up somehow.

Also, I'm not sure how useful the K-beam corridors would have been as storage devices. Despite the diagrams in Mr Scott's Guide showing air and liquid conduits snaking alongside the corridors behind the K-panels, their progress would be interrupted all the time by the frequent doorways. So, they are reduced to the function of oddly shaped cupboards

 

[Ronald Held]

One would think a big refit with major tech upgrades would leave more space, not less. Unless there was extra testing equipment taking up space?

 

[Sans]

Its a trade off, smaller corridors for bigger rooms. But lets be honest, its a totally new ship.