TOS: A Perspective

[Withers]

I never get it when some people make references to TOS a campy

It's one of the aesthetic sensibilities they teach you in theater appreciation classes ironically enough. And the fighting style, sets, lighting and music of TOS are spot on when it comes to identifying camp from the 60's and 70's. It isn't a derogatory statement. It's just the art form that fits the subject material in this case the best.

And, no, based on the definition of the word and its origins the Abrams' movie isn't campy at all. That's not to say there weren't moments of over the top acting or just things that might've been done better all around. I'm just saying "campy" has a specific meaning and that film didn't meet it.


-Withers-​

 

[Nerys Myk]

I never get it when some people make references to TOS a campy. I just shake my head. Abrams' movie is way more campy than TOS except in occasional episodes. It seems Abrams took things like "The Trouble With Tribbles," "I, Mudd," A Piece Of The Action," "Whom Gods Destroy" and "And The Children Shall Lead" as the template of what TOS is.

They form part of what TOS is. So a movie based on those episodes is close to the mark. Of course one could say he took things from "Balance of Terror", "the Doomsday Machine", "Yesteryear" and "This Side of Paradise".

 

[Kelso]

As to the acting though... I've never seen any other show from that time period and thought much of it either. I mean... I guess I kinda like Bewitched? And when did The Wonder Years come out? You see what I mean though? It's so far before my time (it was older than I am now when I was born) I just can't connect to it.

The Wonder Years ran from 1988-1993. The acting in that show is about the same as any other comparable show from the late 80's/early 90's.

Do you have the same issue with stage plays? Do you have the same issues with cartoons?

I spent my teen years in the 70s and yet I have no problem with film from 40-50 years before that. I love silent movies, for instance. You have to just accept the style of the time and go with it, and love it for what it is, not what it isn't.

^ This.

I'm not much older than the OP, but most of the stuff I watch is older than I am (and a lot of it is older than my parents).

I don't think it's an age thing, I think it has more to do with what you've been exposed to in your life- and how willing/able you are to accept different styles of storytelling.

 

[Withers]

I don't think it's an age thing, I think it has more to do with what you've been exposed to in your life-

This

and how willing/able you are to accept different styles of storytelling.

But not necessarily that. (Oh, and the Wonder Years bit was a joke. I know that wasn't from the same era... heh.) Anyway, what I was exposed to when I was younger was stuff that was out in the 90's. I didn't watch Nick at Nite or... you know, anything that would have exposed me to that eras style of story telling. I didn't seek it out (as was the case with, say, examples of Film Noir) it either. So that could go along way to explaining why TOS just isn't my cup of tea visually.

I'm ready to love any Trek that comes out but just because I don't doesn't mean I'm not willing or able to do so. It just means I didn't like it and in this case, speaking specifically about TOS, I don't think that should detract from my status as a "true" or "hardcore" fan the way in certain eyes it seems to.


-Withers-​

 

[Kelso]

Try starting with "Where No Man Has Gone Before." If you don't like that one you should just give it up.

Or... try watching some other shows from the period- esp. westerns- to better acclimate yourself to the style. Do you get the television station WHT? They play a lot of Christian nonsense, but they also play The Rifleman twice per day. You should try watching The Rifleman (which is, incidentally, where my avatar comes from).

 

[Withers]

This might be a stupid question... was it ever in just black and white? If I could find it in black and white I think I might like it more (be able to let the visuals not throw me off so much.)

I'm actually going to take your suggestion Kelso. I don't get WHT. I'm in the states for school and I'm not very accustom to the television here as of yet... but I'll do a search and see if I can't find The Rifleman/some westerns from the time period. Maybe if it didn't stick out so radically different from everything I've ever seen I could get into it.


-Withers-​

 

[Warped9]

^^ It was never in b&w. Just turn your colour down to zero.

 

[Kelso]

I'm actually going to take your suggestion Kelso. I don't get WHT. I'm in the states for school and I'm not very accustom to the television here as of yet... but I'll do a search and see if I can't find The Rifleman/some westerns from the time period. Maybe if it didn't stick out so radically different from everything I've ever seen I could get into it.


-Withers-[/center]

You can also find full episodes on youtube. The Rifleman is good, as is The Wild Wild West, for starters.

 

[A beaker full of death]

[Camp is] one of the aesthetic sensibilities they teach you in theater appreciation classes ironically enough. And the fighting style, sets, lighting and music of TOS are spot on when it comes to identifying camp from the 60's and 70's. It isn't a derogatory statement. It's just the art form that fits the subject material in this case the best.

Whatever they teach in school, there's nothing campy about Star Trek. Camp is self-conscious self-mockery. Star Trek was never that. Batman was that.

Since you've taken theater classes (and kudos for that), I refer you to the episode Gem.
Don't take everything you see literally. Lack of what you interpret as "realism" is not always a function of limited resources. It is often an artistic choice.

And I have a request: That center alignment thing is really distracting. Would you kindly desist?​

 

[A beaker full of death]

You can also find full episodes on youtube. The Rifleman is good, as is The Wild Wild West, for starters.

I recommend Have Gun Will Travel - especially some of the GR episodes.

 

[Shaw]

[Camp is] one of the aesthetic sensibilities they teach you in theater appreciation classes ironically enough. And the fighting style, sets, lighting and music of TOS are spot on when it comes to identifying camp from the 60's and 70's. It isn't a derogatory statement. It's just the art form that fits the subject material in this case the best.

Whatever they teach in school, there's nothing campy about Star Trek. Camp is self-conscious self-mockery. Star Trek was never that. Batman was that.

Since you've taken theater classes (and kudos for that), I refer you to the episode Gem.
Don't take everything you see literally. Lack of what you interpret as "realism" is not always a function of limited resources. It is often an artistic choice.

I'm glad someone pointed this out.

Camp is always a derogatory term. It is when something doesn't take itself seriously. As pointed out, the 60's Batman was campy, so was Lost in Space. In fact most Irwin Allen TV productions ended up devolving into camp. The movie Batman Forever skated on the edge of camp, while Batman and Robin hit the definition (and killed that series of films).

Bright colors were used because in the 1960s color TV was both new, and not as true to the colors as we are today (usually color shows were desaturated on the TVs of the era). And most people saw TOS for the first time in Black & White.

And come to think of it, maybe you, Withers, should consider watching them in Black & White. Throughout the 70's and early 80's I watched TOS on a small Black & White TV in my bedroom.

(At the time the episodes of TOS weren't available to us or she probably would've shown me that instead.)

​

To my knowledge (at least in the United States) there is not been a significant period in any market where TOS wasn't on TV.

 

[scotpens]

... try watching some other shows from the period- esp. westerns- to better acclimate yourself to the style.

I'd also recommend watching some of the better episodes of the sci-fi anthology series The Outer Limits (the original black-and-white series from 1963-1965, not the bland ’90s revival). Very well written stories and dialogue, atmospheric cinematography by Conrad Hall, and great music in the first season by Dominic Frontiere. If you can't appreciate the art of episodes like "The Bellero Shield," "The Man Who Was Never Born," "Nightmare," "O.B.I.T." and "Demon with a Glass Hand," well . . . I tried.

Since you've taken theater classes (and kudos for that), I refer you to the episode Gem.

I assume you mean the third-season ep "The Empath"?

 

[Kelso]

I recommend Have Gun Will Travel - especially some of the GR episodes.

I'd also recommend watching some of the better episodes of the sci-fi anthology series The Outer Limits (the original black-and-white series from 1963-1965, not the bland ’90s revival). Very well written stories and dialogue, atmospheric cinematography by Conrad Hall, and great music in the first season by Dominic Frontiere. If you can't appreciate the art of episodes like "The Bellero Shield," "The Man Who Was Never Born," "Nightmare," "O.B.I.T." and "Demon with a Glass Hand," well . . . I tried.

Both good recommendations. Watching The Twilight Zone wouldn't be a bad idea either.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I assume you mean the third-season ep "The Empath"?

Ah, right you are. Was Gem a working title way back when?

 

[Withers]

Whatever they teach in school, there's nothing campy about Star Trek. Camp is self-conscious self-mockery. Star Trek was never that. Batman was that.

Since you've taken theater classes (and kudos for that), I refer you to the episode Gem.
Don't take everything you see literally. Lack of what you interpret as "realism" is not always a function of limited resources. It is often an artistic choice.

I can appreciate the difference between what I've seen described as being "campy" and TOS. I suppose I should have used the phrase by comparison which would make pretty much anything from the era seem that way when viewed from the perspective of someone who has only more modern things to compare with it. I haven't seen all of the episodes. I've only watched what were termed "classics" and the first one and a half seasons but I plan to watch them all after I have a better frame of reference for the work of the era.

And I have a request: That center alignment thing is really distracting. Would you kindly desist?

I'd do it for you since you asked so politely but now I have to keep doing it out of spite for someone who called me a 'snowflake.' Vanity; a lesson well learned during my time here in the states.

Camp is always a derogatory term. It is when something doesn't take itself seriously. As pointed out, the 60's Batman was campy, so was Lost in Space. In fact most Irwin Allen TV productions ended up devolving into camp. The movie Batman Forever skated on the edge of camp, while Batman and Robin hit the definition (and killed that series of films).

Again, I can appreciate the differences between TOS and that awful Batman and Robin stuff. I, however, took the definition of what I'd been taught and applied it. I certainly didn't mean it as a slight. It would be no different from me identifying "run" as a verb, ya know? But again, there's differences, and I can appreciate that.

And come to think of it, maybe you, Withers, should consider watching them in Black & White. Throughout the 70's and early 80's I watched TOS on a small Black & White TV in my bedroom.

I actually asked that very question on the previous page and someone told me it wasn't ever in black and white. I had the same thought you did, that maybe without the color (that, to someone who hasn't really seen anything to liken it to) I might be able to enjoy it more. I haven't looked yet but if I can find it in B&W I'm definitely going that route.

To my knowledge (at least in the United States) there is not been a significant period in any market where TOS wasn't on TV.

Hopefully I just posed my answer to that. At the time I was in a rural village in Buckinghamshire.

I'd also recommend watching some of the better episodes of the sci-fi anthology series The Outer Limits (the original black-and-white series from 1963-1965, not the bland ’90s revival). Very well written stories and dialogue, atmospheric cinematography by Conrad Hall, and great music in the first season by Dominic Frontiere. If you can't appreciate the art of episodes like "The Bellero Shield," "The Man Who Was Never Born," "Nightmare," "O.B.I.T." and "Demon with a Glass Hand," well . . . I tried.

I'm adding that to my list of "Find it in Amazon" Sounds like it'd be worth it. Thanks for the suggestions.

Both good recommendations. Watching The Twilight Zone wouldn't be a bad idea either.

I'll definitely keep this thread updated on my progress. This thread might actually prove that with the right background, whether experienced through just living or sought out because of curiosity, anything can be enjoyable to anybody. It'll be an interesting experiment if nothing else.


-Withers-
(And, again, my apologies to whomever it was that hates the centered posts. It isn't meant to piss you, specifically, off and eventually I'm sure I'll stop.)​

 

[scotpens]

. . . my apologies to whomever it was that hates the centered posts. It isn't meant to piss you, specifically, off and eventually I'm sure I'll stop.)

I don't find the centered text annoying or distracting at all. There's a guy on the HobbyTalk boards who does all his posts in blue. It's like a personal signature.

 

[Shaw]

I actually asked that very question on the previous page and someone told me it wasn't ever in black and white.

Ummm... I guess you aren't aware that ALL television is black & white on a black & white TV. Just because a show was in color didn't make any difference to a majority of people in the 1960s with black & white TVs.


What I would guess you are also unaware of is that all of those color shows had to work just as well in black & white as they did in color, which was another reason for the vividness of the set dressings and the make-up. What people knew back then (and had to be applied to color shows of the era) was that two very different colors at the same saturation levels will appear as the same color in black & white. The uniforms in TOS all appeared as the same color of gray on black & white TVs. For a lot of people who watched the show in it's original run, magazine ads for color TVs that had the characters from TOS in them were the first place they saw that the uniforms were different colors.

Honestly, you'd also do yourself a big favor to watch current television in black & white to see just how much of what you take for granted is washed out when viewed in that format. You've past judgment on a show which was produced for a radically different medium that you have ever experienced because it doesn't match current shows that play on the medium which they are designed for.

If you enforce this type of bias across all media, then you've most likely never seen some of the best movies of all time.

I didn't go to school to learn how to view entertainment, but I don't think one needs an education to ask the simple questions of what, where, when, how and (most importantly) why.


I'm sure that all of that was wasted on you... after all, you went out of your way to start a thread in the TOS section to declare that you considered it unworthy. I wasn't a big fan of Enterprise, but you sure wouldn't catch me doing something like what you did here in that section. If you don't like something, fine, just move onto the things you do like.

 

[Withers]

Ummm... I guess you aren't aware that ALL television is black & white on a black & white TV. Just because a show was in color didn't make any difference to a majority of people in the 1960s with black & white TVs.

I'll just... trot on down to Best Buy and pick myself up their latest high def black and white television I guess. Silly me.

What I would guess you are also unaware of is that all of those color shows had to work just as well in black & white as they did in color, which was another reason for the vividness of the set dressings and the make-up. What people knew back then (and had to be applied to color shows of the era) was that two very different colors at the same saturation levels will appear as the same color in black & white. The uniforms in TOS all appeared as the same color of gray on black & white TVs. For a lot of people who watched the show in it's original run, magazine ads for color TVs that had the characters from TOS in them were the first place they saw that the uniforms were different colors.

Other than to inform me in a less-than-you're-imagining subtle way of how ignorant I am I'm not sure what the point of that was... I want to watch it in black and white. So... what's your beef?

You've past judgment on a show which was produced for a radically different medium that you have ever experienced because it doesn't match current shows that play on the medium which they are designed for.

Never once have I "passed judgment" on this show save for to say that I, personally, couldn't get past the visual aspect of it to enjoy the stories (which I acknowledged were good.)

If you enforce this type of bias across all media, then you've most likely never seen some of the best movies of all time.

It isn't a bias. Had I said 'anything that doesn't look like the Matrix sucks' that would be a bias. I said no such thing. But you're right- I probably haven't seen a bunch of really amazing stuff based on that I haven't sought out much in the way of cinema classics out side the genres that appealed to me on face value (like film Noir.)

I didn't go to school to learn how to view entertainment, but I don't think one needs an education to ask the simple questions of what, where, when, how and (most importantly) why.

Again, save for the not so subtle insinuation that I'm a... snob of some sort, I don't understand the relevance this has to the conversation.

I'm sure that all of that was wasted on you... after all, you went out of your way to start a thread in the TOS section to declare that you considered it unworthy.

That isn't even kind of what I did. I've done nothing if not show that I have both a respect and want to like this show. In discussing, specifically, with other people what it was that was holding me back I may have stumbled onto a way to appreciate it. I can't guarantee that yet (experiment hasn't as of this post begun) but its possible. I didn't write a "TOS sucks" thread. And if that's what you read I'd invite you to re-read.

If you don't like something, fine, just move onto the things you do like.

There's some irony in that statement coming from someone who posted what their dislike of their perceptions about a thread were. I had the intention of conversation with fans of TOS. What were your motives for posting here?


-Withers-​

 

[AxelFoley]

I don't buy this "generation" excuse, it's pure bullshit. I recently turned 25, first watched TOS 3 years ago after being exposed to pretty much nothing from the same era and growing up with the "good" kind of effects. I still managed to love it from the get-go and never looked back.

I pity people who can't appreciate it because of the dated look & all that stuff, it amazes me that people can't get passed that and appreciate it despite those things.

 

[Withers]

I don't buy this "generation" excuse, it's pure bullshit. I recently turned 25, first watched TOS 3 years ago after being exposed to pretty much nothing from the same era and growing up with the "good" kind of effects. I still managed to love it from the get-go and never looked back.

I pity people who can't appreciate it because of the dated look & all that stuff, it amazes me that people can't get passed that and appreciate it despite those things.

See, this is my favorite part. I can understand why people like it. If I couldn't understand that and just declared my self a basher with no intent of ever giving it a proper shot it would be 100% unacceptable of me. However the idea that anyone out there who doesn't like it is a pitiable moron, the likes of which is undeserving of the mantle of 'Trekkie' is perfectly valid. It's like if you don't absolutely love it right from the start and accept everything about it then you're automatically a hater of it who is unable or unwilling to see the amazing aspects of it (even when you yourself make mention of those things.) I'm not sure what to term that but I know the feeling is very frustrating.


-Withers-​