Torchwood: Children of Earth DAY FIVE FINALE grading thread

[Sci]

1. Arthur Coleman Winters was President-elect of the United States, not President. Presumably after having won the election, he managed to wrangle the United Nations into designating him as humanity's representative to the Toclafane rather than the sitting President (presumably still George W. Bush) or Prime Minister Saxon.

Except that "The Sound of Drums" took place in either April or June.

Evidence?

Also, the fact that Winters flew on Air Force One indicates that he was, in fact, the President of the United States, not the President-Elect, as only the President flies on Air Force One.

The plane was only identified as Air Force One by the newsreader. It's entirely possible that they reported erroneously. We are, after all, talking about TV news, which is prone to getting things wrong.

And Winters was never referred to in dialogue as the President.

Winters was the President, despite the dialogue.

Surely the character's own description of his title should override other characters' descriptions of his ride's name? And, as I noted before, Winters was never actually referred to as the President.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

1. Arthur Coleman Winters was President-elect of the United States, not President. Presumably after having won the election, he managed to wrangle the United Nations into designating him as humanity's representative to the Toclafane rather than the sitting President (presumably still George W. Bush) or Prime Minister Saxon.

Except that "The Sound of Drums" took place in either April or June.

Evidence?

"The Sound of Drums" is stated to be eighteen months since Harold Saxon rose to prominence after the fall of Harriet Jones. The Doctor brought down her government at Christmas 2006, so "The Sound of Drums" is June 2008. At that point, there wouldn't be a President-Elect in the United States. And again, Air Force One.

The dialogue is incorrect.

 

[Sci]

Except that "The Sound of Drums" took place in either April or June.

Evidence?

"The Sound of Drums" is stated to be eighteen months since Harold Saxon rose to prominence after the fall of Harriet Jones. he Doctor brought down her government at Christmas 2006,

No, the Doctor planted the rumors that brought down her government on Christmas Day 2006, but that doesn't mean that the no-confidence vote was actually held that day. We do not know when the no-confidence vote was held and Jones was forced from office, because it was never depicted.

Meanwhile, Winters is very clear in referring to himself as President-elect. I'm sorry, but no one is going to mis-speak as to what office he holds -- and no sitting President would ever claim not to have taken office. The concept is absurd.

Logically, therefore, we can infer that "The Sound of Drums" took place some time between 4 November 2008 and 20 January 2009.

The dialogue is incorrect.

No, you're basing your timeline on an assumption that is not backed up by anything seen on-screen.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

No, you're basing your timeline on an assumption that is not backed up by anything seen on-screen.

Then you're also putting almost a year between "Out of Time" and "End of Days." "Out of Time" takes place right before Christmas 2007, and "End of Days" takes place during the week that is Doctor Who season three.

Six months is really stretching it. But a year?

There's some other dating references in Who season three. I'll dig them up when I get home. Lance Parkin, don't fail me now.

 

[Snick27]

What would of happened if some of the Muslems kids straped bombs to themselves and after they got beamed up, blew the shit out of the 456?

Why Muslems [sic] kids, exactly? Are good, Christian, white kids not capable of that? Given that we are talking about a show in which the governments of Christian, white nations decided to hand 10% of their kids to alien invaders at gunpoint and cover up their part in it, I'd be careful with the sweeping remarks.

Sorry i meant no disrepect to the muslems, i see a better choice would of been any children.

And saddly i can see many countries would be more than happy to give up 10 percent of their children.

But anyway sorry if i offended anyone.

 

[bismarck_1892]

I really enjoyed the whole mini-series. This is what great sci-fi should be. Smart and exciting.

Two things bothered me about the show. (1) If the aliens control children why did they need the government to round them up? Efficiency I guess.
(2) The ending, the magic in the machine. The Star Trek techno-bable. I expected more. The solution was disappointing. A let down.

However, overall it was great.

 

[Sci]

No, you're basing your timeline on an assumption that is not backed up by anything seen on-screen.

Then you're also putting almost a year between "Out of Time" and "End of Days." "Out of Time" takes place right before Christmas 2007, and "End of Days" takes place during the week that is Doctor Who season three.

Not necessarily. I'm inclined, in fact, to put "End of Days" (and therefore the teaser to "Utopia") in early 2008 (January or February). Those "VOTE SAXON" posters could easily have been left over from whatever by-election Mister Saxon used to get himself elected to Parliament (presumably his constituency was in Cardiff).

 

[tomalak301]

That was a good week, but it's a little too dark for me. I want TV intelligent and smart, but that doesn't mean each and everything that is that way has to portray us as monsters and just take an ultra cynical view. For this week it worked and it was well written, but just for me personally and the stuff that I believe it's hard to really grade it because it was just so dark.

As for the Doctor Debate, I'm glad he wasn't here. I guess people missed Gwens monolouge about the reason why he wasn't there but this was not Doctor Who. Maybe it would have been better if Torchwood was it's on unique thing outside the Doctor Who universe, but to have the Docter be there would have been a cheat. As for the series, I don't think I want Torchwood to continue. It's run it's course and how does it go on after this. The series ended tonight. It's story told, there is nothing more to be done.

I'm not going to give a grade for this one. I understand people's reasoning to really enjoy this, but the plot as it was made it hard to really enjoy. I was actually wishing for episodes like Cyberwomen to make sure I was still sane and "human."

 

[Sci]

That was a good week, but it's a little too dark for me. I want TV intelligent and smart, but that doesn't mean each and everything that is that way has to portray us as monsters and just take an ultra cynical view.

I don't think that Children of Earth was portraying all of humanity as monsters. In fact, Children of Earth presented a lot of genuinely good, heroic people -- particularly Ianto's sister and brother-in-law, Rhys, Lois, and PC Andy.

Rather, Children of Earth was portraying the rich and the powerful, the elites, as being monsters. They were, after all, not only willing to murder in the name of political expediency, but willing to betray the British people -- and to turn the 456s into a weapon against the poor, a means of waging class warfare. But plenty of people tried to fight them, too.

 

[Tom Riley]

Wow... I don't even now what to say about Day Five... I'm just at a loss for words... The story telling, and the acting, and everything were just really gripping and I was glued to the TV... But it was so depressing... And, where is Torchwood supposed to go from here? I, for one, actually really liked series 1 and 2 of Torchwood. This one surpassed both of those, If Torchwood were to continue, I'm not sure how they could get it any better than what they just did... Plus, Everything that was Torchwood, that got me hooked on the show, is gone. Tosh, Owen, and Ianto are all dead; the Hub has been destroyed; Jack has run away, and Gwen is all that's left. Even if Jack were to come back, they still would have to completely re-make the show. Maybe that's what they intended, I don't exactly know. I mean, during the "Extended Inside Look" into Torchwood CoE Day 5 that came on right after the episode tonight, RTD did say that he would be just fine leaving it alone and ending it here, unless BBC wanted more Torchwood, in which case he knows exactly what he would do for series 4 if BBC wants one...

 

[C.E. Evans]

I thought it was a great story that answered the question of "What happens when the Doctor isn't here to save the day?" Gwen's statement aside, the Doctor simply can't be everywhere and it was nice to see someone else step up to the plate. Still, the 456 are one of the nastiest and sadistic villians to appear in the Doctor Who Universe in some time, and the way it was all set up it did look like they were seriously going to win. I even found myself hoping that somehow the Doctor would swoop in at the last minute and create a miracle.

That being said, I don't think this story would have had the same kind of intensity and emotional impact had it been told in Doctor Who (for starters, the Doctor might have wrapped this whole thing up on day one). With the Torchwood gang, the stakes were much higher and the consequences far more devastating and long-lasting...

BTW, I ain't fellatin' anyone (I don't swing that way), but I will give RTD a solid A+

 

[Starkers]

That was a good week, but it's a little too dark for me. I want TV intelligent and smart, but that doesn't mean each and everything that is that way has to portray us as monsters and just take an ultra cynical view.

I don't think that Children of Earth was portraying all of humanity as monsters. In fact, Children of Earth presented a lot of genuinely good, heroic people -- particularly Ianto's sister and brother-in-law, Rhys, Lois, and PC Andy.

Rather, Children of Earth was portraying the rich and the powerful, the elites, as being monsters. They were, after all, not only willing to murder in the name of political expediency, but willing to betray the British people -- and to turn the 456s into a weapon against the poor, a means of waging class warfare. But plenty of people tried to fight them, too.

Sweeping statement much? It portrayed some of the elites as monsters. It's also a blithe statement to suggest all those failing schools were where the poorest strata of society were. How incredibly patronising!

 

[Worf2DS9]

Absolutely brilliant series of Torchwood. I was taping each episode this week so I'd have them all on one tape, but it was so good I'm definitely getting the DVD when it comes out on Tuesday (anyone know if there will be more on the DVD that didn't air on television?). And wow, what Frobisher did... Turned out it was unnecessary in the end, but wow, what a strong sequence, paired with that conversation in Lois's holding cell. And Jack's solution to the problem. Wow, what a decision to make, and seemingly (and rightly so) driving a final wedge in his relationship with his daughter.

This would seem to be the end of Torchwood, as I can't see it continuing after this, at least not right away. But who knows what the future will bring...

 

[The Comedian]

I must admit the bit where the PM was going to lose his job to that cow reminded me of the choice we have to make between the cunts and the wankers we have to pick from next year.

Totally. Do we take the wankers who've ruined the country now, or the cunts that did it before them?

5 prime ministers in 5 years. RTD just loves getting rid of Prime Minsters doesn't he?

I was missing Harriet Whatsername...she'd have told the aliens what to go do with themselves.

 

[Captain Dago]

BTW, I ain't fellatin' anyone (I don't swing that way), but I will give RTD a solid A+

Precisely. I mean, thanks for starting the threads, Steele, but your taste in poll categories is dubious at best.

That said, this final episode and indeed the whole series was just BRILLIANT. Incisive social commentary, suspense, character development, humor at appropriate times -- all just excellent.

I could see a 4th series begin with Gwen, Rhys, Lois and PC Andy as the reassembled Torchwood Cardiff and have Jack return after a few epis to awkwardly discover his new place in the world. I'd watch that.

 

[The Comedian]

If the Doctor had showed up, it would have been the biggest cop out in the history of poor writing. And the ending was absolutely perfect given the setup. If that setup had dissolved into a happy happy, cherry on top ending I would have lost every last bit of faith I had in the DW/TW team to produce serious drama.

I think what happened is the Doctor finally ran into my old pal Rorschach.

And then the slimy politicians, the media whores shouted to the Doctor in one voice, "Save us!" and the Doctor whispered back, "No."

 

[Sci]

That was a good week, but it's a little too dark for me. I want TV intelligent and smart, but that doesn't mean each and everything that is that way has to portray us as monsters and just take an ultra cynical view.

I don't think that Children of Earth was portraying all of humanity as monsters. In fact, Children of Earth presented a lot of genuinely good, heroic people -- particularly Ianto's sister and brother-in-law, Rhys, Lois, and PC Andy.

Rather, Children of Earth was portraying the rich and the powerful, the elites, as being monsters. They were, after all, not only willing to murder in the name of political expediency, but willing to betray the British people -- and to turn the 456s into a weapon against the poor, a means of waging class warfare. But plenty of people tried to fight them, too.

Sweeping statement much? It portrayed some of the elites as monsters.

There was not a single powerful person in CoE who did not abuse his or her authority in some way.

It's also a blithe statement to suggest all those failing schools were where the poorest strata of society were. How incredibly patronising!

No, because 1. saying that a school is "failing" doesn't mean that its students are unintelligent or lazy or otherwise lesser members of society, and 2. it's a basic fact of sociology that the schools whose students perform worse academically are disproportionately the schools servicing the working class and the poor.

And no, that's not being patronizing, because I for one reject the premise that achievement in schools constitutes a reliable metric for intelligence or ability to accomplish. Read a little bit about the ways in which schools discriminate against the poor and you'll see why I say that.

 

[Sci]

Out of curiosity, I tried to figure out how many Prime Ministers RTD has gone through now...

In 2006, Tony Blair was assassinated by the Slitheen. Then the Doctor tricked the Royal Navy into killing Acting Prime Minister Joseph Green (in reality a Slitheen in disguise).

After Blair's death, a caretaker PM must have taken office before elections were called. So presumably Gordon Brown took over after the Slitheen incident, only to lose Downing Street to Harriet Jones.

Then the Doctor managed to force Harriet Jones from office some time after Christmas 2006. At some point, another PM must have taken over who went unnamed. This unnamed PM would have then lost his seat after the 2008 General Election to Harold Saxon.

Upon Saxon's death, I'd presume that the Leader of the Opposition was appointed PM just long enough to advise the Queen to call another election (since the Cabinet was dead). This third unnamed caretaker PM may or may not have held office after this new election.

Then in 2009, Torchwood Three lost contact with the Prime Minister's plane during the Dalek Invasion, implying that the Daleks killed that PM.

The next PM we know of after that is Brian Green from Children of Earth.

So that gives us...

Tony Blair
Joseph Green (Acting, Slitheen in disguise)
Unnamed caretaker #1 (possibly Gordon Brown)
Harriet Jones
Unnamed caretaker #2
Harold Saxon (the Master in disguise)
Unnamed caretaker #3
Unnamed Prime Minister (probably killed by Daleks, possibly the same person as UC#3)
Brian Green

Sooo..... At least 8 Prime Ministers between 2006 ("Aliens of London") and what I would presume to be 2010 (Children of Earth).

 

[HappyDayRiot]

^ Worse - Children of Earth is set in September 2009. There was a newspaper bearing the date in Day Two, and Rhys also referred to 1965 as 44 years ago in Day Four.

 

[DWF]

Out of curiosity, I tried to figure out how many Prime Ministers RTD has gone through now...

In 2006, Tony Blair was assassinated by the Slitheen. Then the Doctor tricked the Royal Navy into killing Acting Prime Minister Joseph Green (in reality a Slitheen in disguise).

After Blair's death, a caretaker PM must have taken office before elections were called. So presumably Gordon Brown took over after the Slitheen incident, only to lose Downing Street to Harriet Jones.

Then the Doctor managed to force Harriet Jones from office some time after Christmas 2006. At some point, another PM must have taken over who went unnamed. This unnamed PM would have then lost his seat after the 2008 General Election to Harold Saxon.

Upon Saxon's death, I'd presume that the Leader of the Opposition was appointed PM just long enough to advise the Queen to call another election (since the Cabinet was dead). This third unnamed caretaker PM may or may not have held office after this new election.

Then in 2009, Torchwood Three lost contact with the Prime Minister's plane during the Dalek Invasion, implying that the Daleks killed that PM.

The next PM we know of after that is Brian Green from Children of Earth.

So that gives us...

Tony Blair
Joseph Green (Acting, Slitheen in disguise)
Unnamed caretaker #1 (possibly Gordon Brown)
Harriet Jones
Unnamed caretaker #2
Harold Saxon (the Master in disguise)
Unnamed caretaker #3
Unnamed Prime Minister (probably killed by Daleks, possibly the same person as UC#3)
Brian Green

Sooo..... At least 8 Prime Ministers between 2006 ("Aliens of London") and what I would presume to be 2010 (Children of Earth).

There's nothing onscreen to suggest that the first PM was Tony Blair nor that there were caretakers or PMs inbetween the ones we've seen onscreen.