the non-bankrupt politicians are back-benchers...they wouldn't be in COBRA
Torchwood: Children of Earth DAY FIVE FINALE grading thread
- Thread starter Jim Steele
- Start date
You know, any other time I would agree with you. Look up my posts. I'm not exactly RTD's biggest fan. But, sometimes you have to be willing to accept a suspension of logical belief if the dramatic narrative is so strong as to carry you through it without notice.
I, for one, loved this season of Torchwood. Loved it. Love. I mean...fuck...Russel Davies, this makes up for Fear Her, and might even soothe the "Jesus-Doctor" wound. Give us another season on this level of perfection, and I think you could pretty much make up for every slice of cheese you've covered the past four seasons of Who with, but just!
Damn good. I wonder if this is RTD saying this his pro-humanity outlook from 2005 has changed tracks?
Also, major props to John Barrowman. He brought back the Captain Jack that I met in The Empty Child. I hope this isn't the last time we see him...
RIP Ianto. Didn't really care for you one way or another. But, you certainly weren't irritatingly boorish like Owen, so, hey I'll miss you.
Here's to TORCHWOOD 2.0
I think that Gwen's speech that opens Day Five was meant as a repudiation of the Doctor-as-Jesus mythology that RTD has constructed over the past few years. Against some monsters, even gods themselves are impotent.
Actually, in many ways, I think this story as a whole was meant as a repudiation of the Doctor's methods. The tragedy of Day Four shows that the Doctor's bluster simply doesn't work in some situations. Had the Doctor attempted what Jack did, because that's the Doctor's playbook, the end result would have been precisely the same, only the Doctor might've regenerated outright; the Four-Five-Six ambassador simply didn't care and would have released the virus.
That's a very precise, and keen analysis Allyn. Props man, because I couldn't agree more.
It didn't even occur to me, but you're exactly correct. That is how he writes The Doctor. I wonder, then, why the sudden shift or turnaround from that stance? Why the 'loss of faith' on RTD's part then? Maybe just a chance to explore the opposite of Doctor Who?
Imagine if, near the end of Silence in the Library when the Doctor says to the Vashta Narada (sic?) "I'm the Doctor and you're in the biggest library in the galaxy. Look me up." the shadow doesn't hesitate and back away but just goes "Yeah? So what? NOM!!".
That, and the scene with Captain Jack and the 4.5.6. was the same sort of thing, but on the opposite ends of the "cynicism vs. idealism" scale.
I liked that scene.
That, and the scene with Captain Jack and the 4.5.6. was the same sort of thing, but on the opposite ends of the "cynicism vs. idealism" scale.
I liked that scene.
I've never seen 'Torchwood' before (have only seen a few 'Dr. Who' eps off and on throughout the years as well), but the promos for 'Children of Earth' really caught my eye, especially the creepiness of the kids saying "We are coming" in unison, so I decided to record it.
I'm only two episodes in so far (I'll be watching two more today probably), so I haven't read the rest of the thread to avoid spoilers, but I just wanted to drop by and say that it's been damn good entertainment. It's got just the right mix of creep factor, betrayal, and action to keep me on the edge of my seat, and it's been very accessible for even a new viewer like me to follow.
So all around I think they've done a fantastic job from what I've read of both satisfying existing fans and drawing in new fans to the show.
I'm only two episodes in so far (I'll be watching two more today probably), so I haven't read the rest of the thread to avoid spoilers, but I just wanted to drop by and say that it's been damn good entertainment. It's got just the right mix of creep factor, betrayal, and action to keep me on the edge of my seat, and it's been very accessible for even a new viewer like me to follow.
So all around I think they've done a fantastic job from what I've read of both satisfying existing fans and drawing in new fans to the show.
I've been pondering this, The.That's a very precise, and keen analysis Allyn. Props man, because I couldn't agree more.
The thing I keep coming back to is this -- way back in "The Moonbase," the Doctor said, "There are corners of the universe that have bred the most dreadful things. They must be fought." (That's a rough paraphrase from memory.) The mythology of Doctor Who is that the Doctor gives monsters nightmares. (I think Lance Parkin uses precisely that line in The Dying Days when the eighth Doctor reveals himself to the Ice Warriors.) But the monsters in Children of Earth are not the aliens. The real monsters are the humans -- the politicians for making deals with aliens to sell out their own people. The Four-Five-Six are monstrously depraved, but the British government is far worse; they know what they're doing, and they're complicit in it.
That's what makes Jack's decision at the climax of Day Five so difficult. He's sacrificing his grandson to save the children of Earth from the depraved cowardice of the government. Steven's sacrifice might become known, but no one will understand what it means. Steven was sacrificed to save Earth, true, but he was also sacrificed to save a power structure that cared nothing for his cohort. And that, more than anything, probably fuels Jack's decision to leave Earth. Jack has had blood on his hands before. What makes Steven's blood different isn't that it's his own grandson. It's that Steven's sacrifice was, ultimately, pointless; his death didn't defeat the real monsters. If anything, as Prime Minister Green's comments suggested at the end, it only entrenched them further.
What does this have to do with the Doctor-as-Jesus mythology? A great deal, actually.
Try to imagine a role for the Doctor in the story. What would he have done differently, except possibly try and shoot the Four-Five-Six with his sonic screwdriver instead of a revolver? I didn't see a point where the Doctor would have played (or could have played) a meaningful role. (Indeed, I'd wonder if Frobisher's orders to have the witnesses to 1965 assassinated would have extended as well to the Doctor, had he been present in the time; if there's anyone that could bring down a government, it's the Doctor. See former PM Harriet Jones.) The Doctor would have blustered his way right into Thames House, he would have made the same demand of the ambassador, and he'd have been gassed -- and probably regenerated -- for his trouble. He still would have been set-up as the scapegoat (which is what Frobisher's conversation with Jack at the beginning of Day Five alluded to), because the government needed a scapegoat. (See Green's attempt to foist the blame off on the American government.) The Doctor couldn't cross the line with the Daleks in "Parting of the Ways." What would make this situation any different?
In many respects, Children of Earth is set up to put the staggering incompetence of Torchwood Cardiff at the fore. At no point in the story do they get a "win." They get rebuffed by the government. They get their headquarters destroyed. Their leader gets assassinated. They go on the run. They deal themselves back into the game by luck, but it blows up spectacularly in their face. One of the complaints about the series from the start was that for all their technological prowess, the characters behaved unprofessionally and idiotically. Ironically, they modeled themselves on Jack Harkness, who had modeled his approach with Torchwood on the Doctor himself (see Jack's comments to the Doctor in "The Sound of Drums"). Jack isn't the Doctor. Jack can't be the Doctor. But Jack, using the Doctor's methods, can't win. Some monsters are too entrenched, some miracles can't be pulled off.
In that regard, at arm's length, Children of Earth shows that even gods have limits. If the Doctor is a defender of British liberalism (as has been long argued), then against fascist or totalitarian regimes, the Doctor would be impotent. At best, the Doctor might incite rebellion, but Jack and Gwen couldn't even do that by revealing the discussions in the halls of power. The difference is that Gwen has to live with the consequences of her actions, while the Doctor can (and does) bugger off at a moment's notice.
Suffice it to say, I loved Children of Earth. I have a really difficult time recommending it to people, because of the material in the final two episodes. But the first three episodes are as close to a story I've wanted to tell with Doctor Who for a long time -- what would the Doctor do in a world like Alan Moore's V For Vendetta.
Some monsters wear business suits.
Beyond getting into a battle of alliteration with V?
Actually, the V/Evey dynamic is very Doctor/Companion. Especially Seven/Ace... hmm...
Except that Ace didn't spend half their relationship thinking she was going to mudered and raped in no particular order.
Wow, that's an incredible analysis of the series and how The Doctor would handle the situation, Allyn. Major props. 
Hmmm.
I've always imagined the new Doctor making a guest appearance somewhere in Torchwood... perhaps even in a Children In Need mini-episode?
Hmmm.
I've always imagined the new Doctor making a guest appearance somewhere in Torchwood... perhaps even in a Children In Need mini-episode?
God I hope not.
Like I said above, the Doctor should never, ever appear in Torchwood. The Doctor is a figure of fantasy, mysterious, a figure of longing, an aspiration: He is the hero that we all want to be and who our inner child longs to believe in.
Torchwood, at its best, is rooted in the dark and painful reality of the adult world. It may be about the necessity of bringing our inner children into our adult lives to keep the evils of the adult world in check, but even there, the Doctor should never appear in Torchwood. To have him there undermines the emotional and thematic realism of the program; it undoes the fundamental dramatic conceits of Torchwood.
Finally was able to finish Part 5 tonight. It was a great Series. But i'm glad I caught it before I bought the blue Ray. It was Great but so Grim and Dark that I doubt I'd watch it alot, but it was a very telling politicl statement about how the people of England feel of their Governemnt, one that fits pretty well in the States. Torchwood feels over to me now, I think I'm glad for Gwen, let her have a family and a mariage, no one hangs around torchwood long. And Jack's decision to leave made sense. I always felt that in the Who Series Torchwood was portrayed much as how the Government was portrayed here. It made sense that a Marooned Jack would go to work for an organization whose Primary existance was for the Doctor. But now that he's been reunited I cannot see him sticking around, indeed Jack's Final Decision to sacrifice his Grandson, was Very "Human" and much as the Goverment was willing to do.
I Hope Capt Harkness will turn up again soon.
I Hope Capt Harkness will turn up again soon.
Good Sci Fi Always Draws Parrellels to current day events.
not sure if it's been asked, but did they ever say how the aliens found out that children could be a source for their crack? only reason i ask is because is because the most likely reason is they've had access to a child before and that's how they found out. but if that's so, that negates the need for humans to "give" them children. they could simply take them. did they explain why they didn't just take what they wanted? better yet, synthesize the chemical from the children they already had?
Oh, zing! You got him!
Nah, when Seven wants to torture someone to mentally prepare them for taking over his role, he doesn't think that small.
Well given that they have at least rudimentary matter transportation, they could have snatched one child fairly easily and without too much suspicion, I would have thought. Then they needed more, so they spoke to the government (the 'dealer' of the analogy) to get what they wanted. Although they probably could have got it themselves, in the way you can grow weed yourself, they went to their new 'dealer'. Then when they needed huge numbers of children, more than they could pick out one by one via their matter transporter, they go back to the same source that provided before.
And as for synthesis, chemically speaking it is almost always cheaper and easier to extract a chemical if there is a ready source than to synthesise it from scratch. What if it was an enzyme? A highly complex protein 10s of thousands of atomic mass units in size, we can't even come close to synthesising them, perhaps the 456 couldn't either?