Torchwood: Children of Earth DAY FIVE FINALE grading thread

[Jim Steele]

I have a kid, and I'll fully acknowledge that if I had to sacrifice my daughter to save all your kids, your kids are going to die. I'm sure anyone else with children would think the same, whether or not they'd admit it.

That's why Jack Harkness is simultaneously a better and worse man than me. One child's life to save the lives of 30 odd million is simply a no-brainer, but killing your own grandson? In front of his mother?! That's... dark.

It's that conflict, that moral juggling act that makes CoE so compelling. It's incredibly well written. The fact that we're even debating it is testament to that.

 

[jamestyler]

I have a kid, and I'll fully acknowledge that if I had to sacrifice my daughter to save all your kids, your kids are going to die. I'm sure anyone else with children would think the same, whether or not they'd admit it.

That's why Jack Harkness is simultaneously a better and worse man than me. One child's life to save the lives of 30 odd million is simply a no-brainer

Seconded. In the unlikely situation I had that choice (seeing as my promoter is a Torchwood fan, the false threat might not be so unlikely), Zi would still be here.

It's refreshing. Torchwood with deep issues. I've woken up in batshit crazy land.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

I'm gutted because it looks like there won't be any more Torchwood now.

Unless now's the time to bring in the Torchwood Two spin-off set in Glasgow...

I'll have to go and double check, but I think that one of the Torchwood files that Lois reads says that Torchwood Two no longer exists,

Yeah, they disbanded at ome point. Probably had a good old booze session with some weevils.

 

[Silent_Bob]

I disagree with the person who said it made Jack seem more human, i think it made him seem slightly less Human and more like an anti-hero. Somebody who did something cold but necessary. I think most parents would rather see the world go up in flames than sacrifice their own child/grandchild.

I believe that was me. By more human i meant more flawed, willing to cross the line in order to defeat the bad guy. Prior to Children of Earth Jack was approaching Doctor levels of knowing exactly what to do, and how to save almost everyone. It was good to see him stuck in a position where there was no right choice that he could make. Jack would have been damned no matter what he did.

And you are right about most parents. Given the choice between sacrificing my kids or letting the world end, you'd best be ready for the apocalypse.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

^

Exactly. He's busy. Is that so hard to accept?

If you get in to "Where was he?" you then have to ask where was he for the Trickster's attacks? where was he for the asteroid? Where was he for the Bane? Where was he for the Slitheen attack? Where was he for Abadon? etc. etc.

They dealt with all that though. The worst question to ask is "Where was the Doctor for The Event?" Cos clearly that went to shit without him as well.

 

[Silent_Bob]

^

Exactly. He's busy. Is that so hard to accept?

If you get in to "Where was he?" you then have to ask where was he for the Trickster's attacks? where was he for the asteroid? Where was he for the Bane? Where was he for the Slitheen attack? Where was he for Abadon? etc. etc.

They dealt with all that though. The worst question to ask is "Where was the Doctor for The Event?" Cos clearly that went to shit without him as well.

We dont know he wasnt around for The Event. Maybe the only reason why anyone survived at all was thanks to the Doctor.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

^

Exactly. He's busy. Is that so hard to accept?

If you get in to "Where was he?" you then have to ask where was he for the Trickster's attacks? where was he for the asteroid? Where was he for the Bane? Where was he for the Slitheen attack? Where was he for Abadon? etc. etc.

They dealt with all that though. The worst question to ask is "Where was the Doctor for The Event?" Cos clearly that went to shit without him as well.

He did the sensible thing and Remained Indoors.

(sorry)

 

[cultcross]

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

Why a sore one? He dealt with a hopeless situation in the only way that would stop his kids being taken by the 456, without harming the government's 'message', and hence the only viable option (at that point) to get rid of the alien threat. If he'd gone out and taken on the government by himself in front of the cameras, it would have achieved nothing. In fact, it would have only been detrimental to his family's chances of survival. So why would doing so have been in any way noble? He saw only one way out for his daughters, and he took it.

The part about Frobisher that doesn't make much sense is why the PM told him before his little press stunt that his kids would be taken. That rather undermined the likelihood that he'd go through with it, imho.

 

[Silent_Bob]

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

Why a sore one? He dealt with a hopeless situation in the only way that would stop his kids being taken by the 456, without harming the government's 'message', and hence the only viable option (at that point) to get rid of the alien threat. If he'd gone out and taken on the government by himself in front of the cameras, it would have achieved nothing. In fact, it would have only been detrimental to his family's chances of survival. So why would doing so have been in any way noble? He saw only one way out for his daughters, and he took it.

The part about Frobisher that doesn't make much sense is why the PM told him before his little press stunt that his kids would be taken. That rather undermined the likelihood that he'd go through with it, imho.

The PM likely thought he would go through with it. Look at what Frobisher had been willing to do the last four days, without objection. The PM probably expected him to carry on being a spineless weasel and do as he was told.

 

[cultcross]

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

Why a sore one? He dealt with a hopeless situation in the only way that would stop his kids being taken by the 456, without harming the government's 'message', and hence the only viable option (at that point) to get rid of the alien threat. If he'd gone out and taken on the government by himself in front of the cameras, it would have achieved nothing. In fact, it would have only been detrimental to his family's chances of survival. So why would doing so have been in any way noble? He saw only one way out for his daughters, and he took it.

The part about Frobisher that doesn't make much sense is why the PM told him before his little press stunt that his kids would be taken. That rather undermined the likelihood that he'd go through with it, imho.

The PM likely thought he would go through with it. Look at what Frobisher had been willing to do the last four days, without objection. The PM probably expected him to carry on being a spineless weasel and do as he was told.

Fair point. And I think it was done that way precisely to underline the point that no-one really knew Frobisher at all, particularly not the part of him that was a good man. The PM had no idea what he'd do - something that recurred again when he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar by the contact lenses a second time.

 

[OptimusPete]

If the 456 did wipe out humanity where were they proposing to get more kids from? The whole thing seemed like a bit of a con job to me and in a way I found the utter spinelessness of everyone the most fantastical part of the show!

 

[Bob The Skutter]

If the 456 did wipe out humanity where were they proposing to get more kids from? The whole thing seemed like a bit of a con job to me and in a way I found the utter spinelessness of everyone the most fantastical part of the show!

They could just take everyone and kill the adults... but then they would only have kids for as long as they last...

 

[cultcross]

If the 456 did wipe out humanity where were they proposing to get more kids from? The whole thing seemed like a bit of a con job to me and in a way I found the utter spinelessness of everyone the most fantastical part of the show!

They could just take everyone and kill the adults... but then they would only have kids for as long as they last...

Well unless they were sensible enough to hold a proportion back to use as a breeding program.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

If the 456 did wipe out humanity where were they proposing to get more kids from? The whole thing seemed like a bit of a con job to me and in a way I found the utter spinelessness of everyone the most fantastical part of the show!

They could just take everyone and kill the adults... but then they would only have kids for as long as they last...

Well unless they were sensible enough to hold a proportion back to use as a breeding program.

Sensible junkies?

 

[cultcross]

They could just take everyone and kill the adults... but then they would only have kids for as long as they last...

Well unless they were sensible enough to hold a proportion back to use as a breeding program.

Sensible junkies?

Quiet you. Point out your plot holes elsewhere!

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Well unless they were sensible enough to hold a proportion back to use as a breeding program.

Sensible junkies?

Quiet you. Point out your plot holes elsewhere!

Plot holes in scenarios we're making up?

 

[cultcross]

Sensible junkies?

Quiet you. Point out your plot holes elsewhere!

Plot holes in scenarios we're making up?

Clearly, the script for the series was not thought through well enough if our wild speculation about it falls so rapidly apart. I blame RTD.

 

[Samurai8472]

At least Jack didn't live Gwen crying at Bad Wolf Bay

 

[hyzmarca]

If the 456 did wipe out humanity where were they proposing to get more kids from? The whole thing seemed like a bit of a con job to me and in a way I found the utter spinelessness of everyone the most fantastical part of the show!

Maybe Earth isn't the first planet they've pulled this sort of extortion on. Maybe human children aren't the only ones who produce those chemicals.
Maybe there are dozens, even hundreds of worlds which regularly tithe 10% of their children to these monsters, and a planetary scale demonstration of their weapons would serve to keep the other worlds in line.

 

[Snick27]

I Truly hated this.


What kind of Monsters are we to give up 10 percent of other peoples children? If we are that cold and heartless then we deserve to get wiped out.

That ending ruined Jacks image. NO longer can i watch him with the doctor in season 1 etc and enjoy watching a man that killed his grandson.

As a dad of 4, no way in hell would i ever do that.

I rather go down fighting , you no fighting for my kids to live then to just give up.
Plus Unit and Torchwood should know and manly Jack, that earth couldnt be wiped out cause its a fix point. If earth is wiped out, then in the future BAD WOLF and Parting of the Ways wouldnt happen and that means Rose would never be there to make Jack immortal.

Plus i feel if earth was about to get destoryed then i feel the Doctor would show up and stop it. To me its a risk i would take cause think, if the 456 would of taken the 10 percent, what type of world we have left?
Everyone would be fighting the gov of their county and it be wars plus i dont think every country would actually give up those children.

If nothing else, what they should of done, kept that old man alive that was one of the boys in 1965 and let him give his life to stop the 456. That to me would of been fine and gave him something to actually do and be a hero at the end, ala payback.


So many ways they could of gone with this, but no go the doom and gloom way.
I must be the only on on here that likes happy endings.