Too many dystopias - the world needs utopian Star Trek

[Hartzilla2007]

Exploring is definitely the top of their list. Combat is at the absolute very bottom.

In TNG according to the TOS original pitch it put defense of Earth/The Federation above exploration.

And before you start going on about that just being the pitch, in "The Alternative Factor" Kirk's survey mission (aka exploration) got dropped the moment Starfleet thought an invasion was happening (aka military stuff).

 

[hux]

Yes, the primary mission is science/exploration. I believe that the first starship built that was not primarily designed for science was the USS Defiant in Deep Space Nine, because of the Borg.

The starships have weapons and shields because space is dangerous. Aside from defense, we have seen many times where shields are used to protect from radiation or other space hazards, and phasers are often used to destroy asteroids, etc. Starfleet is not naïve enough to send its heavily-populated starships out exploring unknown regions of space without the capability to defend themselves.

You see nothing? Have you ever even watched Star Trek? "It's continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before". Which part of that mentions that their mission is military in nature?

There are these lovely little things called lines. You might want to look between them.

Star Trek presents a lot more to the audience than just exploration and everyone being happy. It shows us that a military coup can happen at the drop of a hat, that a secret organisation works nefariously in the shadows, that the prime directive will be utterly ignored when it suits, it shows us a universe without need or want where people do things purely to better themselves... and yet we see Ezri's family running a depressing mining operation and Cassidy slogging her guts out as a cargo work-monkey etc. It shows us lots of things.

To those of us paying attention at least.

 

[Amaraen]

Yes of course they are going to stop exploring when being attacked. They are not going to sit there and say "Oh we're being killed by enemies, but I'm still going to finish this report rather than defend myself". Because the Federation does not have a military, Starfleet acts as the defense force in times of need. This does not make its primary focus military.

It's not about "reading between the lines", it is about seeing what you want to see despite the evidence to the contrary. It is stated numerous times in Star Trek that Starfleet is a peaceful organization devoted to exploration and science. The fact that it also serves as defense does not in any way contradict this.

There was a time at work where I spilt my drink and I had to stop what I was doing to clean up the mess. This did not make me a janitor.

There definitely were people in Starfleet who were not perfect, and wanted things to be different. They were always shown as being both wrong and outliers. As they say, "A few bad apples does not spoil the whole bunch". There have been Popes who lead armies into battle. This does not make the Church a military organization. There have been farmers who picked up a rifle to fight in a militia; this does not mean they are primarily soldiers.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I've said this many times before, but it bears repeating:

Starfleet is the military. What it is not, however, is militaristic. There is a difference.

 

[hux]

It's not about "reading between the lines", it is about seeing what you want to see despite the evidence to the contrary.

Then presumably you didn't see Section 31, Paradise Lost, the countless episodes where Starfleet is immensely militaristic. They are blatantly militaristic in nature as an organisation regardless of their exploration claims. Everything about them has a military element and consideration. Ignoring that fact simply because they say you should, is naive.

It is stated numerous times in Star Trek that Starfleet is a peaceful organization devoted to exploration and science. The fact that it also serves as defense does not in any way contradict this.

Depends on your perspective. The US government would make similar claims about their intent in the world but ten minutes with the citizens of the world would probably garner an alternative interpretation.

There was a time at work where I spilt my drink and I had to stop what I was doing to clean up the mess. This did not make me a janitor.

A flawed comparison. If where you work has "no janitors" and it comes under your purview to do those janitorial tasks then guess what... you are a janitor! While your company might assure you that you're not, the fact remains that as long as you are expected to deal with the janitorial duties... you are a janitor.

There have been Popes who lead armies into battle. This does not make the Church a military organization.

During the battle that's exactly what it makes them. Because in that moment, they are responsible for their actions.

There have been farmers who picked up a rifle to fight in a militia; this does not mean they are primarily soldiers.

Again, if that is their primary responsibility at that time then yes, of course that means this primary role is that of soldier. It's about your duties and what is expected of you. Starfleet does not just get pulled in as the military when required. Starfleet is entirely expected to be the military at all times. It is part of their responsibilities.

 

[Amaraen]

Because it is the "primary focus at the moment" that does not make it the "primary focus of their existence".

A handful of examples of Starfleet personnel acting out of the norm for the organization does not define said organization.

You cannot take a snapshot and say it speaks for the whole.

 

[Kor]

There is no other organization or operation in the Federation that serves the purposes of a military.

When it comes to border patrols and outposts, defense of planets or ships against hostile powers, or all-out war, Starfleet is it.

All those space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone (referred to in TUC) sure weren't there for scientific discovery and exploration!

Kor

 

[Amaraen]

Of course, they were an unfortunate necessity due to a hostile neighbor. Starfleet did not want them, and when there was peace with the Klingons they were dismantled. The Federation does not have a military, so Starfleet serves that purpose when the need is there. That still does not make it their primary mission.

 

[hux]

The Federation does not have a military, so Starfleet serves that purpose when the need is there.

America doesn't have a military, so the scientists, technicians, engineers and labourers of the army, navy and airforce serve that purpose when the need is there.

Wait, that sounds silly.

There comes a point where the need is there on such a regular basis that pretending the Federation doesn't have a military is just a bit... yeah, silly.

 

[ozzfloyd]

Sure, characters often SAID that Starfleet is not the military, but their actions run counter to any such assertions.

 

[Amaraen]

America does have a military, unfortunately.

But if there was no military as it is now, just a citizen militia who took up arms when the nation was attacked, then they would not be a military.

 

[Drone]

Well, keeping in mind they're in a world where we wrecked our planet in WWIII they might see people from the end of the 20th Century as the types who let things get that bad in the first place. IE, History basically painted a not so nice picture of the people of that era.

Well, one might ponder the consideration that they could have been, if not thankful to their guests, at least acknowledging of the role in history that they played. To wit, is it at all plausible to suggest that without the war having played out, humans development of space flight might have been significantly delayed? As counter-intuitive as it may seem, the dynamics of a civilization that has remained at peace, even a tenuous one, might have been focused on other concerns, creating an atmosphere where even a singular intrepid and determined individual may not have come into the position of making the defining contributions that he became famed for in the Prime Universe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, keeping in mind they're in a world where we wrecked our planet in WWIII they might see people from the end of the 20th Century as the types who let things get that bad in the first place. IE, History basically painted a not so nice picture of the people of that era.

Yeah, because a homemaker and a country singer would surely have contributed a whole hell of a lot to WWIII at all, let alone one that wouldn't even happen for 50 years after they were 'frozen'.

 

[Trekkin]

McCoy wasn't the only one who let him know they thought he was full of crap - Kirk, Chapel, and Uhura (in WNMHGB) did too.

Too bad none of them bothered hitting him right in the core of his argument by pointing out how vicious Ancient Vulcans were and how Humans were never THAT barbaric.

Honestly, after all the "You stupid barbarians!" stuff they got during TOS from practically ever alien they ran into I don't blame the TNG Humans for turning the tables a bit.

Spock was the one who actually said that Vulcans were really bad, even by Earth standards. It was also only really revealed in Tomorrow is Yesterday, which was the penultimate episode of the entire series. Not much room for it to be brought up afterwards.

Mind you - Turnabout Inrtuder probably would have been better if it had solely revolved around Spock and McCoy having a final 'my species has the biggest dick' contest.

America does have a military, unfortunately.

But if there was no military as it is now, just a citizen militia who took up arms when the nation was attacked, then they would not be a military.

They could be. All it takes is their government to recognize them as such, and you've got a military. The actual structure doesn't matter, hence how different states militaries can vary so much.

Theoretically, most militaries exist in case there is a war that need be fought, not because their countries want to fight. In between and outside of conflicts, they do a rather wide range of things like rescues, diplomatic excercises, enforcing quarantines, escorts for non-military vessels, narcotics patrols etc.

Kinda like Starfleet.

 

[T'Girl]

Well the writers specifically point out in Into Darkness that Scotty "thought we were explorers"

The writers also specifically point out in Star Trek Eleven, through Christopher Pike, that the Federation is " a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada." No mention of exploration there.

Anyway that a alternate universe.

Voyager's mission wasn't to explore yet they do it for the entire seven seasons.

Even there Voyager's primary mission was "returning to port," secondary was searching for resources and supplies. Down towards the bottom of the list was exploring, it wasn't job one.

"Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
- Jean-Luc Picard, Peak Performance

That was in the episode where Picard's superiors in Starfleet hierarchy ordered Picard to participate in war games.

Exploring is definitely the top of their list. Combat is at the absolute very bottom.

Look at it this was, what comes first? That's the primary mission, that's job one.

If you look at the American military, what do they spend most of their time doing, combat? No, it training, but that training stops when it comes time to break things and hurt people. Starfleet engages in exploration when there noting else more important going on, exploration isn't even number two on the list either, other things come before it.

You see nothing? Have you ever even watched Star Trek?

Of course, this is where Starfleet is the Federation's military comes from.

The crews general attitude towards the 20th century seems rather dismissive in that episode.

Picard was derisive toward them before they even woke up for the first time.

Well, keeping in mind they're in a world where we wrecked our planet in WWIII

Given the we were able to completely recover from that war in only a few decades, "wrecked" is likely overstating what happened.

 

[Stoo]

Starfleet clearly has a military role. It's just not the US Navy In Space, at least not in TNG times. It has a bunch of extra duties to perform, including exploration.

How militaristic it tends to be depends on which era of trek we're watching. The movies were the most space-navy (space-Hornblower perhaps), TNG was roving science\explorers\diplomats that had to fight sometimes, DS9 had a big war and an actual warship, and the tone adjusted accordingly.

 

[T'Girl]

Starfleet clearly has a military role.

If Starfleet were a "pure" exploration organization, they would clear out of the way when major combat was expected.

It has a bunch of extra duties to perform, including exploration.

As militaries always have through-out history.

How militaristic it tends to be depends on which era of trek we're watching.

Might be more what's going on at the moment, regardless of the era. With the possible exception of Picard, all Starfleet captains seem to have a hawkish side that comes into play when it's appropriate.

.

 

[Kor]

Well the writers specifically point out in Into Darkness that Scotty "thought we were explorers"

The writers also specifically point out in Star Trek Eleven, through Christopher Pike, that the Federation is " a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada." No mention of exploration there.

Anyway that a alternate universe.

That was an odd turn of phrase on Pike's part. I assume it was a slip of the tongue and he meant to say "Starfleet" instead of "the Federation." It's like saying the United Nations is an "armada."

Kor

 

[Makarov]

The writers also specifically point out in Star Trek Eleven, through Christopher Pike, that the Federation is " a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada." No mention of exploration there.

Anyway that a alternate universe.

That's one line against the entire gist of the movie, in which the guy pushing for war was the villain. And that's the kind of story Trek tells most of the time. They don't go around looking for war when they can avoid it. In that movie they remind the audience what the federation is supposed to be, and it ends with the exploration mission.

There are these lovely little things called lines. You might want to look between them.

There's a lot of this looking at minor elements of the show in order to come up with this darker view of the federation, which can be done, but it's kind of missing the forest for the trees. We can think about how section 31 makes Starfleet militaristic, or recognize that they're just used as straight up villains in the most recent movie.

 

[fireproof78]

The writers also specifically point out in Star Trek Eleven, through Christopher Pike, that the Federation is " a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada." No mention of exploration there.

Anyway that a alternate universe.

That's one line against the entire gist of the movie, in which the guy pushing for war was the villain. And that's the kind of story Trek tells most of the time. They don't go around looking for war when they can avoid it. In that movie they remind the audience what the federation is supposed to be, and it ends with the exploration mission.

There are these lovely little things called lines. You might want to look between them.

There's a lot of this looking at minor elements of the show in order to come up with this darker view of the federation, which can be done, but it's kind of missing the forest for the trees. We can think about how section 31 makes Starfleet militaristic, or recognize that they're just used as straight up villains in the most recent movie.

Anyone else having deja vu here? Pretty sure there was a "Starfleet is/is not military" thread a while back

Also, Section 31 is considered evil because it is outside of the law. There is no check upon its combat abilities, and the fact that they are trying to make a preemptive war and violate the law makes them villainous.

The military role is balanced with the exploration role and some times they do both. It can be a both/and scenario not an either/or situation.

But, there is a lot of on screen evidence for Starfleet being a military organization, even if it isn't militaristic or imperialistic in its approach (In TOS, the Klingons were often the opposite of that). Kirk even identifies as a "soldier" to Kor, and doesn't argue with Chang when he calls him a "warrior."

For every instance of Picard objecting to the "military" label there are examples of other captains doing differently. Also, despite his protestations, Starfleet has a ranks, weapons training and if their rules are violated, then there is a court martial-which means "military court." The Federation also has no other organization by which is can defend itself, or its allies, in times of war.

I'm not saying that Starfleet's primary job is war, but that it has a multifaceted mission, one that has similarities to the modern US Navy. It isn't dystopian to protect oneself and allies.