To the Death - Cut version released on R1 DVD?

[Admiral Bear]

I know this has probably been answered somewhere back in the vastness of time, so sorry for asking again, but does anyone know if To the Death on R1 DVD is LeVar Burton's original uncut edit, or is it the mutilated version which was passed by the US TV networks for transmission?

 

[Lateralus]

I didn't even know there were two editions... Interesting.

 

[Navaros]

It's the cut version on R1 and on R2.

 

[Admiral Bear]

It's the cut version on R1 and on R2.

Oooh, so somewhere in the vaults at Paramount, there may well be the original kick ass, probable R rated version sitting on a shelf somewhere?

This must be recovered! I want to see more Jem H'dar deaths dammit!

 

[Timo]

But wasn't the fight scene cut into its shorter (and less gory) form before the episode in its entirety was put together? That is, there couldn't exist a version with the longer fight scene, because the episode would then run overtime.

The longer fight scene as such no doubt exists, in the form of a "blooper reel" somewhere in the archives, but it won't fit into the episodic frame.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Admiral Bear]

But wasn't the fight scene cut into its shorter (and less gory) form before the episode in its entirety was put together? That is, there couldn't exist a version with the longer fight scene, because the episode would then run overtime.

The longer fight scene as such no doubt exists, in the form of a "blooper reel" somewhere in the archives, but it won't fit into the episodic frame.

Timo Saloniemi

The over runnning time issue is something which had occurred to me, and does make me think that, although there's no evidence of it, that re-shoots may have had to have taken place in order to replace the censored material so that the episode's run time was around the usual mark.

There's some detail on the initial cutting mentioned in the DS9 episode companion by Terry Erdmann, which has pretty much been copied below, and is available at

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/To_the_Death_(episode)

This episode is the first ever Star Trek show to be cut for violence. According to Ira Steven Behr, forty-five seconds of hand-to-hand combat was cut prior to the episode being screened. This displeased Behr a great deal; "that really hurt the show. We built up to this battle and now it's just perfunctory. The fans who wrote letters on the internet saw that the rhythms were thrown off." Similarly unimpressed was stunt co-ordinator Dennis Madalone; "in the first edited version, fifty-two Jem'Hadar had been killed. Dax had killed ten and Sisko had killed seven. But when the censors got hold of it, they took out over thirty-two Jem'Hadar deaths." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion) The BBFC added a further five seconds of picture and sound censoring and rated the episode 15.

Sadly, this doesn't answer any of the obvious questions.

 

[Navaros]

I don't see why the running time should be an issue for a DVD release. Who cares how long an episode runs for on DVD?

Unfortunately, the uncensored version of this episode will probably always remain unseen. IMO there isn't enough demand to put it out for Paramount to ever actually care enough to do it.

 

[Smiley]

Would more violence or more graphic violence really help the episode? I'm doubtful of that.

 

[Saul]

How bout the VHS? Cut too?

 

[Dane_Whitman]

How bout the VHS? Cut too?

I have the VHS released for the Dutch market. It includes the uncut version of the episodes, which means it includes the Neck Snapping Scene. When I bought the season 4 DVD box I was very disappointed to get the censored UK version of the episode.

 

[Timo]

Considering the originally filmed scene vs. the aired one, shouldn't we actually be jumping of joy at the fact that Ben Sisko, a mediocre pugilist who had counted on wielding a phaser rifle, didn't kill seven born and bred hand-to-hand warriors in a swordfight? Shouldn't we rejoice in the revelation that Dax, although channeling the skills of a guy who hanged around with Klingon swordsmen a lot, didn't off TEN of these master fighters when earlier on she had been hard pressed to defeat a single Klingon sword warrior?

As released, the episode still highlights the achievements of our heroes at the expense of those of their allied Jem'Hadar, but the suspension of disbelief doesn't require ten-braid duranium cabling any more...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dane_Whitman]

You have a point, Timo. "Way of the Warrior", though a hugely exciting episodes that pulled out all the stops, suffers from this syndrome. We see our heroes punch out Klingon warriors who have devoted their lives to combat with a single blow.

I always thought it should take at least three humans trained in hand to hand combat to defeat ONE Klingon Warrior.

 

[Navaros]

How bout the VHS? Cut too?

I have the VHS released for the Dutch market. It includes the uncut version of the episodes, which means it includes the Neck Snapping Scene. When I bought the season 4 DVD box I was very disappointed to get the censored UK version of the episode.

That doesn't mean the VHS version is uncut. The neck snapping scene is just an additional cut done to the R2 DVDs, in addition to the cuts described in the OP. It being included on the VHS tape does not mean that the uncut episode described in the OP is what is on that VHS tape, though.

Considering the originally filmed scene vs. the aired one, shouldn't we actually be jumping of joy at the fact that Ben Sisko, a mediocre pugilist who had counted on wielding a phaser rifle, didn't kill seven born and bred hand-to-hand warriors in a swordfight? Shouldn't we rejoice in the revelation that Dax, although channeling the skills of a guy who hanged around with Klingon swordsmen a lot, didn't off TEN of these master fighters when earlier on she had been hard pressed to defeat a single Klingon sword warrior?

As released, the episode still highlights the achievements of our heroes at the expense of those of their allied Jem'Hadar, but the suspension of disbelief doesn't require ten-braid duranium cabling any more...

Disagree. The confrontation had been hyped up in the episode as a brutal, epic battle vs. wild Jem'Hadar that must be stopped at all costs. Really the Sisko and Dax etc. shouldn't have been involved in that hand-to-hand combat at all. It should have been a team of Federation commandos or something. Putting Sisko and Dax on the front lines was ridiculous in an and of itself. If they are going to go with that route though, then might as well go all out with that rather than use the excuse that they are not great hand-to-hand fighters to make the battles half-baked. If they are not great then they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Having Sisko and Dax there, being dead weight on the ground and needlessly risking their lives, requires just as much if not more of a suspension of disbelief IMO. The half-baked battle makes the battle incongruent with the rest of the episode, and diminishes the episode's impact a lot IMO.

 

[Saul]

So neck snapping has been edited out of the R2 DVDs? I remember them on the VHS tape but the Tapes were sold individually so some tapes were rated differently.

 

[Renvar]

You have a point, Timo. "Way of the Warrior", though a hugely exciting episodes that pulled out all the stops, suffers from this syndrome. We see our heroes punch out Klingon warriors who have devoted their lives to combat with a single blow.

I always thought it should take at least three humans trained in hand to hand combat to defeat ONE Klingon Warrior.

And at the same time, Worf the Fed-raised Klingon can kick the ass of pretty much any Empire-raised warrior without breaking a sweat.

 

[Jono]

Would more violence or more graphic violence really help the episode? I'm doubtful of that.

For quite a while the lack of more graphic violence really bothered me in Deep Space 9. In these hand-to-hand scenes I expected more blood covering the characters and weapons. I couldn't understand why they pussy footed around it...then I finally realised it was like a prime time show in the US and my attitude towards it was shaped by the fact it screened at 11PM at night, around the time Australian free to air TV starts bombarding you with ads with scantly clad women begging you to call them for a sexy chat at only $4 a minute.

 

[Dane_Whitman]

How bout the VHS? Cut too?

I have the VHS released for the Dutch market. It includes the uncut version of the episodes, which means it includes the Neck Snapping Scene. When I bought the season 4 DVD box I was very disappointed to get the censored UK version of the episode.

That doesn't mean the VHS version is uncut. The neck snapping scene is just an additional cut done to the R2 DVDs, in addition to the cuts described in the OP. It being included on the VHS tape does not mean that the uncut episode described in the OP is what is on that VHS tape, though.

I understand that, I thought Saul's Eye was asking about the neck snapping scene.

 

[JoeD80]

There's some detail on the initial cutting mentioned in the DS9 episode companion by Terry Erdmann, which has pretty much been copied below, and is available at

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/To_the_Death_(episode)

But when the censors got hold of it, they took out over thirty-two Jem'Hadar deaths."

For quite a while the lack of more graphic violence really bothered me in Deep Space 9. In these hand-to-hand scenes I expected more blood covering the characters and weapons. I couldn't understand why they pussy footed around it...then I finally realised it was like a prime time show in the US

Deep Space Nine was a syndicated show. The timeslot is up to the local stations, and the local stations don't employ censors to complain about the level of violence. The only people who could control the amount of violence on DS9 (outside of the producers themselves of course) would be the sponsors or Paramount itself, perhaps worried that a sponsor would pull their funding for the show being too graphic.

 

[Kinggodzillak]

Virgin 1 here in the UK show the uncut neck-breaking scene...

 

[SoM]

Deep Space Nine was a syndicated show. The timeslot is up to the local stations, and the local stations don't employ censors to complain about the level of violence. The only people who could control the amount of violence on DS9 (outside of the producers themselves of course) would be the sponsors or Paramount itself, perhaps worried that a sponsor would pull their funding for the show being too graphic.

At the same time, that means the timeslot is up to the local stations. As Ira Behr noted in the DS9 Companion (relating to sexy stuff, but the same point holds true beyond a certain level of violent stuff):

"Kids watch this show, and in some markets it airs at five o'clock,"

Given that Paramount (and the producers, writers, etc themselves to some extent) were scared of losing stations, and thus viewers, obviously that acts as a drag on anything happening.