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To Appomattox (2013) a 8 part miniseries

Trotsky once defined a social revolution as one that transferred property from one social class to another. The property in slaves was transferred from the planters to themselves. The Civil War was a great revolution, the true foundation of our nation and its freedoms. All freedoms are ultimately traceable to revolutions (and wars of liberation against invaders,) not to the military and its absurd claims that our freedsome somehow depends on the dead bodies it leaves thousands of miles away. The ceaseless attempts to rewrite the history of the Civil War are attacks on freedom. Any handful of black men in the Confederate Army is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands who fled and the hundreds of thousands who fought.

The black man fighting for the Confederacy was in the movie Ride with the Devil. The director Ang Lee depicted this as a personal friendship and the man was showed to immediately quit at the death of his friend. The Unionist North was treated very much like the Chinese Communists fighting agains the Nationalists. This was inadvertently appropriate as the Union was indeed fighting a revolutionary cause. As befit a Taiwanese/Hollywood director, however, his sympathies were with the South, even if not his better judgment. Firefly fans might be interested to catch this movie for an artistic treatment of Firefly's themes.

In the movie Gangs of New York, the draft riots (at the same time as Gettysburg) were treated as poor men rising up against oppressor. "A rich man's war, a poor man's fight!" The Southern fight for slavery was a rich man's war, but the Union fight was a fight against slavery. The slogan and its faux-populist outrage were cheap falsehoods. I've never understood why people admire Martin Scorsese.

Revolutions don't terminate neatly. The forces of reaction always take advantage of the exhaustion of the combatants to restore as much of the old ways as compatible with the fundamentally changed balance of forces. If this series is going to follow up post war, it needs to consider the impeachment of Andrew Johnson (a great lost opportunity!:scream:) and the battles of Reconstruction. If on the other hand, like John Adams, it is primarily a biography, it should be written as such.

PS Mr. Coates probably would find the New York City draft riots unedifying, but the question of why the Federal government didn't seek and punish the perpetrators and break up the political base is a deeply fascinating one. This failure presaged the ultimate failure of Reconstruction, I think. Lincoln was in many respects a deeply conservative man (most clearly signalled I think in his long insistence that the key to victory was to kill off the rebel army,) a corporation lawyer in ruthless times. Despite his adamant commitment to ending slavery by strangling its territorial expansion, his legalism prevented him from contemplating other means, means that would have fundamentally changed things, until the exigencies of the situtation forced him too. Retroactively this has been dubbed political genius, the refusal to move until he had the support for victory.
 
In the movie Gangs of New York, the draft riots (at the same time as Gettysburg) were treated as poor men rising up against oppressor. "A rich man's war, a poor man's fight!" The Southern fight for slavery was a rich man's war, but the Union fight was a fight against slavery. The slogan and its faux-populist outrage were cheap falsehoods. I've never understood why people admire Martin Scorsese.

He knows how to steal ideas from others.
 
In the movie Gangs of New York, the draft riots (at the same time as Gettysburg) were treated as poor men rising up against oppressor. "A rich man's war, a poor man's fight!" The Southern fight for slavery was a rich man's war, but the Union fight was a fight against slavery. The slogan and its faux-populist outrage were cheap falsehoods.

Congratulations on trying to utterly simplify something complex.
 
In the movie Gangs of New York, the draft riots (at the same time as Gettysburg) were treated as poor men rising up against oppressor. "A rich man's war, a poor man's fight!" The Southern fight for slavery was a rich man's war, but the Union fight was a fight against slavery. The slogan and its faux-populist outrage were cheap falsehoods.

Congratulations on trying to utterly simplify something complex.

Not only that, but the information is not entirely accurate. The Union's fight originally was NOT against slavery. That didn't really happen until after the Battle Antietam and Lincoln's issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. At that point the war, from the Union viewpoint, took on a different character.

Prior to that time, Lincoln expressed his desire to save the Union and nothing else. I don't remember the exact quote and I don't have it front of me but the gist of it was basically "If I could save the Union by freeing all the slaves I would do it. If I could save the Union by NOT freeing the slaves I would it. If I could save the Union by freeing some of the slaves I would do it." His original focus was saving the Union, period.

Events on the battlefield, and fear of European involvement changed that.
 
In the movie Gangs of New York, the draft riots (at the same time as Gettysburg) were treated as poor men rising up against oppressor. "A rich man's war, a poor man's fight!" The Southern fight for slavery was a rich man's war, but the Union fight was a fight against slavery. The slogan and its faux-populist outrage were cheap falsehoods.

Congratulations on trying to utterly simplify something complex.

Not only that, but the information is not entirely accurate. The Union's fight originally was NOT against slavery. That didn't really happen until after the Battle Antietam and Lincoln's issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. At that point the war, from the Union viewpoint, took on a different character.

Prior to that time, Lincoln expressed his desire to save the Union and nothing else. I don't remember the exact quote and I don't have it front of me but the gist of it was basically "If I could save the Union by freeing all the slaves I would do it. If I could save the Union by NOT freeing the slaves I would it. If I could save the Union by freeing some of the slaves I would do it." His original focus was saving the Union, period.

Events on the battlefield, and fear of European involvement changed that.

Don't forget that the EP didn't free any slaves in the US, only in the CSA... no real legal standing whatsoever as the CSA wasn't in the USA at the time.

Hell some of the last slaves declared free by passage of the 13th amendment were from NJ.
 
Not only did secession leaders openly avow the issue was protection of slavery, secession ordinances, official statements of justification, said so.

The notion that there was anything complex about the draft riots needs to justify this by explaining the complex motives involved in burning down an orphanage for black children. Without bothering about whether or not children were inside.

The "CSA" was not a legally recognized country. It was a part of the US under enemy control. It had no more legal rights than the tribal leadership of the Cherokees or Sioux or whoever. Assuming otherwise is taking the slavers' side.

Lincoln was an extremely legalistic thinker. The Emancipation Proclamation applied only to areas outside federal control because those were the areas in which the the Commander-in-Chief could exercise his war powers as necessity and discretion demanded. This avoided the legal question of whether war powers could justify expropriation of property (which is what the proclamation did, legally speaking,) in areas that were not under enemy control, where the courts and legislatures were functioning and able to decide the issues. This was vitally important to Lincoln, because it would prevent some subhuman fuck of a "judge" from rewriting history and the Constitution a la Roger Taney to legally reverse the Emancipation.

There is in fact one grotesque oversimplification of a complex issue. That is the notion that "Saving the Union" was somehow opposed to fighting slavery. There is a reason why secession ordinances specifically mentioned slavery. Lincoln won the election on a platform that insisted the the Federal Government had the right to restrict slavery's expansion. In political terms, since it turned out that the grossly inferior society of the South was not as once expected going to grow faster than the North, that meant that inevitably the Northerners would have a political majority, even in the Senate, the body meant to insure that national majorities could not enact their will.

As said, Lincoln was extremely legalistic. In an extraordinary feat of consitutional and legal analysis (best expressed in his famous Cooper Union address,) he proved this power to restrict slavery's expansion. The South refused to accept that they lost the election for this reason and only that reason. This meant that saving the Union meant saving democracy. Lincoln would not compromise his democratic belief that the results of elections should be abided. Further, he refused to compromise his belief that the expansion of slavery could and should be restricted.

In other words, he insisted that eventually the slavers' political stranglehold should eventually be broken. As the South well knew, there could be many compromises along the path till the day until a decisive national majority was against them, instead of a plurality. Even a constitutional amendment supposedly "protecting" domestic slavery in the South would be insufficient. The real protection of slavery required a police state South, with passes, armed patrols everywhere, censorship, and the perpetual resort to torture and murder. When the national majority became strong enough to overcome the divisive effects of racism, slavery would go.

Lincoln's refusal to admit that democracy should be flouted in order to defend slavery in the South, and that democracy required he uphold his platform on the federal restriction on the expansion of slavery were the key issues that made defense of the Union necessary. When anyone writes that Lincoln just wanted to "save the Union," he or she is lying by omission, leaving out what terms he insisted on saving the Union: Democracy and the power of the nation to restrict the expansion of slavery. It was always about slavery.
 
Not only that, but the information is not entirely accurate. The Union's fight originally was NOT against slavery. That didn't really happen until after the Battle Antietam and Lincoln's issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. At that point the war, from the Union viewpoint, took on a different character.

Well, except for many Union soldiers of course it was always about slavery and there's no denying the war wouldn't have started without the southern elites wanting to keep it.

The notion that there was anything complex about the draft riots needs to justify this by explaining the complex motives involved in burning down an orphanage for black children. Without bothering about whether or not children were inside.

What, are you suggesting that just because poor immigrants have more complex motives than "slavery yay!" (for example - "why am I being drafted to fight a war when I just got off the boat???" and of course the classic tale of lower-class whites and free blacks competing for the same jobs) they can't have undertaken vile acts?

The "CSA" was not a legally recognized country. It had no more legal rights than the tribal leadership of the Cherokees or Sioux or whoever. Assuming otherwise is taking the slavers' side.

Oh fuck you for comparing the tribal leadership of Native Americans to the CSA.
 
The excuses that Southern Apologists spin to justify their version of the Civil War and the slaughter of +600 thousand Americans are truly amazing.

Congratulations on trying to utterly simplify something complex.

Not only that, but the information is not entirely accurate. The Union's fight originally was NOT against slavery. That didn't really happen until after the Battle Antietam and Lincoln's issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. At that point the war, from the Union viewpoint, took on a different character.

Prior to that time, Lincoln expressed his desire to save the Union and nothing else. I don't remember the exact quote and I don't have it front of me but the gist of it was basically "If I could save the Union by freeing all the slaves I would do it. If I could save the Union by NOT freeing the slaves I would it. If I could save the Union by freeing some of the slaves I would do it." His original focus was saving the Union, period.

Events on the battlefield, and fear of European involvement changed that.

Don't forget that the EP didn't free any slaves in the US, only in the CSA... no real legal standing whatsoever as the CSA wasn't in the USA at the time.

Hell some of the last slaves declared free by passage of the 13th amendment were from NJ.

In the movie Gangs of New York, the draft riots (at the same time as Gettysburg) were treated as poor men rising up against oppressor. "A rich man's war, a poor man's fight!" The Southern fight for slavery was a rich man's war, but the Union fight was a fight against slavery. The slogan and its faux-populist outrage were cheap falsehoods.

Congratulations on trying to utterly simplify something complex.

Not only that, but the information is not entirely accurate. The Union's fight originally was NOT against slavery. That didn't really happen until after the Battle Antietam and Lincoln's issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. At that point the war, from the Union viewpoint, took on a different character.

Prior to that time, Lincoln expressed his desire to save the Union and nothing else. I don't remember the exact quote and I don't have it front of me but the gist of it was basically "If I could save the Union by freeing all the slaves I would do it. If I could save the Union by NOT freeing the slaves I would it. If I could save the Union by freeing some of the slaves I would do it." His original focus was saving the Union, period.

Events on the battlefield, and fear of European involvement changed that.

In the movie Gangs of New York, the draft riots (at the same time as Gettysburg) were treated as poor men rising up against oppressor. "A rich man's war, a poor man's fight!" The Southern fight for slavery was a rich man's war, but the Union fight was a fight against slavery. The slogan and its faux-populist outrage were cheap falsehoods.

Congratulations on trying to utterly simplify something complex.

Well it was racism plain and simple. Poor immigrants didnt want to fight for the blacks. That seemed to be the common view of what the Civil War was being fought for even from the beginning. The Republican Party's main political plank back then was 1) abolitionism and 2) stopping the further spread of slavery.

Not only that, but the information is not entirely accurate. The Union's fight originally was NOT against slavery. That didn't really happen until after the Battle Antietam and Lincoln's issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. At that point the war, from the Union viewpoint, took on a different character.

Well, except for many Union soldiers of course it was always about slavery and there's no denying the war wouldn't have started without the southern elites wanting to keep it.

http://cwbr.com/index.php?q=3790&field=ID&browse=yes&record=full&searching=yes&Submit=Search

Even from the beginning, there was the belief that the war was fought to redeem America from the sins of slavery.
 
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Not only that, but the information is not entirely accurate. The Union's fight originally was NOT against slavery. That didn't really happen until after the Battle Antietam and Lincoln's issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation. At that point the war, from the Union viewpoint, took on a different character.

Well, except for many Union soldiers of course it was always about slavery and there's no denying the war wouldn't have started without the southern elites wanting to keep it.

Wasn't talking about the South's motivations, but rather Lincoln's STATED motivations. As for the Union soldiers, I'm sure what you say is true about them. But it's also true that many Union soldiers were upset by the EP as they felt that's not what they had signed up for. THOSE soldiers were there to bring the South back into the Union.
 
The excuses that Southern Apologists spin to justify their version of the Civil War and the slaughter of +600 thousand Americans are truly amazing.

You quoted me so I don't know if that snide remark was aimed at me or not but I can assure you there's no spinning or apologizing on my part. What happened happened. The South started the war because the political and economic leaders wanted to protect their way of life which included slavery. Lincoln, as he repeatedly stated at the time, was about saving the Union, period. As the war drug on and political and military fortunes changed, he knew he had to make it about more that that. And thus the EP. Which has as already been pointed out, DIDN'T free the slaves in the border states, AND had the southern states came back into the union by 1/1/1863, it would not have freed the slaves in those states either. There's no spin there, that's what happened.

What was in his mind and heart at the time when he was TALKING about saving the Union, I do not know as I do not have the ability to read the mind of man who has been dead for over 147 years. I doubt anyone else can do that either. All we can go by is what the man said at the time.
 
Well it was racism plain and simple. Poor immigrants didnt want to fight for the blacks. That seemed to be the common view of what the Civil War was being fought for even from the beginning. The Republican Party's main political plank back then was 1) abolitionism and 2) stopping the further spread of slavery.

Well sure, I didn't say there wasn't racism as a motivating factor. The spectrum of attitudes towards blacks was more varied than "non-racist and wants equal rights" and "supports continued slavery." I mean, from that review you linked:

"White Union enlisted men, Manning argues, opposed slavery from the beginning, even as they viewed blacks as inferior. They tried hard to separate the issues of slavery and black rights, but the more they saw of slavery in fact, the more they came not only to detest the institution but to empathize with the slave."
 
This is spiraling way out of control. I don't think the series is going to get as indepth as the conversation here.
 
It's worth remembering though that the state declarations of causes, as well as most of the Confederate constitution, were likely written by the same pro-slavery politicians who were so defensive before the war. That is why they contain such obvious defenses to protect the "peculiar institution," and I think it's highly unlikely they were intended to represent a broader spectrum of views across the South.
Well the pro-slavery politicians were the political leasership as it was, and though I agree they didn't represent every Southern viewpoint they weren't signifcantly at odds with public opinion, either. At any rate they were the ones the Union had to deal with. My main point is that you can't dis-entangle "states' rights" in this context from slavery, there was no other state vs. federal issue that even came close to motivating opposing sides on that scale.

The confederate military was intergrated, both the army and navy had blacks serving within white units. The confederate military was the first to have black chaplains, who admits erred to white troops. The south was even on the verge of emancipation toward the end of the war, as giving up the institution of slavery was more acceptable than losing the nation in the eyes of the political leadership.
Yes one can find examples of black soldiers on the Confederate side but in very small numbers. The CSA had heated internal disagreements on the issue, with the governor of Georgia writing "Whenever we establish the fact that they are a military race, we destroy our whole theory that they are unfit to be free." The CSA maintained a very unpopular draft exemption for a certain percentage of slaveholders so they could stay at home and keep their slaves in line. Arming black males hit a fundamental nerve with a large section of the South.

Though some might disagree over how enthusiastic the Confederates were about black soldiers on their side, there is no question that their treatment of black Union soldiers unlucky enough to become their prisoners was appallingly different from that of whites on the same side.

Don't forget that the EP didn't free any slaves in the US, only in the CSA... no real legal standing whatsoever as the CSA wasn't in the USA at the time.

The Federal legal position was that the Confederates states were still part of the USA but were territories in armed insurrection. On a practical level the Union found it expedient to prosecute some aspects of the war as if the Confederates were a belligerent nation, but maintained the insurrection position throughout the war, and no foreign government formally disputed that position.

The "CSA" was not a legally recognized country. It was a part of the US under enemy control. It had no more legal rights than the tribal leadership of the Cherokees or Sioux or whoever.

I would say the tribes had more legal standing, as the federal government entered into treaties with them, which was not done nor necessary with the leadership of the CSA.

What was in his mind and heart at the time when he was TALKING about saving the Union, I do not know as I do not have the ability to read the mind of man who has been dead for over 147 years. I doubt anyone else can do that either. All we can go by is what the man said at the time.

If we go by his writings it is quite clear that he wanted slavery eradicated. The famous Aug. 1862 open letter to Horace Greely was mentioned above ("If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it..."). If you read further in the letter Lincoln goes on to say: "I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free."

It is perhaps unpleasant now to think of politics intruding on such a right-or-wrong issue as slavery, but at the time it was very important and Lincoln was constantly courting or trying to appease this faction or that in order to preserve his adminstration's ability to prosecute the war. Lincoln was a pragmatic politician and though some might now see it as wishy-washy, flip-flopping or trying to please everyone, in reality Lincoln's goals were completely dependent upon winning the war and he was willing to downplay some of his personal principles to achieve that.

Justin
 
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