TNG vs DS9 - The Showdown!

[TheGodBen]

So basically you're agreeing that it's impossible to tell a good story wherein a person can be satisfied and happy after putting in hard work and not giving up despite the odds?

Actually, what I'm saying that real people have set-backs in their lives and most of the time things don't go exactly according to plan and we have to make compromises. I prefer to see tales told with those kinds of characters and that is just as valid an opinion as your seeming preference for fantastical heroes.

 

[Cyke101]

And yet the major payoff from the years of gloom and doom and war is that the three largest TOS/TNG rivals achieved unheard of cooperation amongst themselves,

And it's implied that things will eventually go back to their old antagonistic ways between the Feds and the Romulans while the Dominion will always just be waiting in the GQ.

Who implied that about the Feds and the Romulans? Let's remember the events of Nemesis and the spirit of cooperation there. Meanwhile, during the treaty signing, the female changeling didn't sneak back into the wormhole with a Dr. Claw-esque "I'll get you next time!" threat.

(That and I think you're seriously underestimating Odo's drive, determination, and nature in being an agent of positive change for the Dominion now).

an oppressed nation fought back its usurpers, and a persecuted minority found religious satisfaction.

Yes, and their planet is still an utterly trashed place full of death and persecution and angry folks whose real satisfaction came not from peaceful coexistence but from their oppressors suffering nearly and equal genocide and devastation. Violence and strife was simply rewarded with an equal amount for the others instead any sort of peaceful future.

"Still" an utterly trashed place? The last time we saw Cardassia on screen, it was right after the war. Were you expecting the miracle of replicated buildings and a spiffy new Cardassia? Just what were your expectations here?

What about the long-term? Let's look at post-war Italy and Germany. In many ways just as bad if not worse than Cardassia, and yet now they're not only allies of the US and UK but they're considered upper tier powers as well. Frankly, that's a very positive turn for those two nations considering the strife of the 40s. They built themselves back up in a spirit of friendship and peace. It was a process that took decades, but it all started right after the war, too, and starting is often the hardest part of the job.

Among the main characters, the most blue-collar of the staff became a professor, the exile became the savior, and the freedom fighter became the station's leader, among other developments that came full circle. If that's not peace as a result of (extremely) hard work, I don't know what is.

O'Brien just got sick of all the abuse he got on DS9 and left,

Proof? I don't recall that ever being said, unless you're just making things up now. He had a bittersweet goodbye, proud of his new position but sad that he had to leave (flashback montage, anyone?). He didn't leave in a huff, cursing at Sisko and Co. while storming into a runabout.

Garak returns home to find it's gone anyways,

I was talking about Odo and how he pledged to make the Founders more peaceful, an opening that hadn't been there before. But if you want to bring back Garak, he's also gone from selfish, arrogant spy to political leader and hero. In other words, the complete opposite of the shady person he was at the start. That's a negative?

That's the thing about Garak and Odo: you don't engage in that type of reconstruction/rebuilding efforts (especially planetary!) if you despair that it would all be for nothing, otherwise you're just wasting your time. Rather, you engage in that work if you believe in the greater good and are certain that you can help things get better. That is a major motivator in today's activist and goodwill efforts. A bad today can lead to a wonderful tomorrow. How much more hopeful can that message get?

Kira is left with all of her love interests all gone,

And is now helping to usher her planet into a new era of political influence and religious enlightenment, all with a smile on her face and eager to tackle the future. Are we going to tear down Admiral Janeway for losing the love of her life to distance, flirting with her first officer (a former enemy!), and having a romance in Fair Haven, despite getting her crew home?

and the rest of the crew essentially all say "Heck, this place is full of bad war memories let's get out of here".

They didn't say that, though. They said it was time to move on, just like *gasp* Riker & Troi with the Titan, or Sulu on the Excelsior. Dax and Bashir were still onboard, as were people like Jake (the person most likely to leave due to bad memories, decides to stay instead). Nog was promoted and the station is still under Starfleet's jurisdiction.

On top of all that, it's pretty telling that our heroes won largely by sticking to their Federation ideals. When Ross, Sisko, and Martok land on Cardassia, only Martok celebrates the victory. Ross and Sisko refuse to drink to the success of the war. After all that violence and all the death, they refuse to breathe that sigh of relief; Starfleet officers never revel or glorify war.

I don't get where all this nit-picking and selective-memory hate is coming from. Despite all the mayhem one of the major themes of the show was that our heroes never truly gave up hope, and they did indeed win in the end. No one can deny that.

Worf himself is an exile who helped his Klingon persecutors time and again in TNG. Kirk's lost almost all his love interests over the years, many of whom he lost to death and destruction. This kind of drama is hardly exclusive to "darkmedium." You had Richard Kimball despair over his lost wife every week in the Fugitive. The cast of MASH used humor to hide their obvious and unending pain, one going insane in the process and the rest realizing that their work only delayed the inevitable. Maude strongly debated herself when she chose to get an abortion in the 70s. None of these shows were dark (two of them are comedies!), but each of these shows are held among the classics for its portrayal of human struggle and that not everybody wins.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Maybe it's because I've seen all of nuBSG, but I don't consider DS9 a particularly "dark" show. If anything, I would call it "realistic".

Some of its stories have happy endings, others don't. We have protagonists who occasionally get their hands dirty and antagonists who occasionally commit acts of heroism, just like real people would. In the end, our heroes prevail, although sacrifices had to be made. Life is struggle, but it also goes on...

It's very human, actually.

 

[Thrall]

"Rorschach's Journal. July 5, 2009.

Ran into minor annoyance today. Self-described non-Deep Space Nine hater who clearly despises Deep Space Nine. Couldn't stop talking about how said show is the worst thing ever. Name of Anwar. Madly in love with the sound of own voice. Or sight of words rather. Incapable of tolerating other opinions. Enraged over minority status. Inability to let things go and not have the final word. Veidt and him would become fast friends. Displayed an almost trollish ability to hijack threads. Rabid Voyager fan. Possible Communist connection. Must investigate further."

 

[Anwar]

Who implied that about the Feds and the Romulans?

Sloan and Section 31.

Let's remember the events of Nemesis and the spirit of cooperation there.

Yes, but that was a TNG movie and thus it was more optimistic and not in the vein of DS9.

Meanwhile, during the treaty signing, the female changeling didn't sneak back into the wormhole with a Dr. Claw-esque "I'll get you next time!" threat.

(That and I think you're seriously underestimating Odo's drive, determination, and nature in being an agent of positive change for the Dominion now).

The Dominion's been doing their thing for thousands of years, one guy saying "Wait a minute" isn't going to change anything. He can work as hard as he wants, but his hard work won't pay off. And the Female Changling (before the Treaty and the cure) pretty much was going on about how in the end the Dominion would triumph anyways. I doubt them being cured would change that attitude since they were all dying from a virus introduced to them even before the war started.

"Still" an utterly trashed place? The last time we saw Cardassia on screen, it was right after the war. Were you expecting the miracle of replicated buildings and a spiffy new Cardassia? Just what were your expectations here?

I was referring to Bajor actually, not Cardassia.

What about the long-term? Let's look at post-war Italy and Germany. In many ways just as bad if not worse than Cardassia, and yet now they're not only allies of the US and UK but they're considered upper tier powers as well. Frankly, that's a very positive turn for those two nations considering the strife of the 40s. They built themselves back up in a spirit of friendship and peace. It was a process that took decades, but it all started right after the war, too, and starting is often the hardest part of the job.

Cardassia suffer massive genocide and the all but total annihilation of their industrial base and infrastructure, and even if it is rebuilt odds are the rebuilt planet will just be a pacified puppet state for the other powers and never allowed to be it's own place anymore.

Proof? I don't recall that ever being said, unless you're just making things up now. He had a bittersweet goodbye, proud of his new position but sad that he had to leave (flashback montage, anyone?). He didn't leave in a huff, cursing at Sisko and Co. while storming into a runabout.

All the "O'Brien must suffer" episodes would leave a bad mark on anyone, and considering that it's no wonder he accepted the offer and left no matter what good memories there were.

I was talking about Odo and how he pledged to make the Founders more peaceful, an opening that hadn't been there before. But if you want to bring back Garak, he's also gone from selfish, arrogant spy to political leader and hero. In other words, the complete opposite of the shady person he was at the start. That's a negative?

He secretly hoped that one day through his efforts he'd be able to go back to Cardassia. He works hard to do so, ultimately becoming a different man than he was, only when he gets there it's a ruin and odds are it'll never be the place he loved so much to begin with anymore.

That's the thing about Garak and Odo: you don't engage in that type of reconstruction/rebuilding efforts (especially planetary!) if you despair that it would all be for nothing, otherwise you're just wasting your time. Rather, you engage in that work if you believe in the greater good and are certain that you can help things get better. That is a major motivator in today's activist and goodwill efforts. A bad today can lead to a wonderful tomorrow. How much more hopeful can that message get?

They ARE wasting their time, they just don't realize it and don't understand the odds or greater circumstances they're going against. That's not hopeful, it's delusional.

And is now helping to usher her planet into a new era of political influence and religious enlightenment, all with a smile on her face and eager to tackle the future.

Like I said, at the end Bajor was still a messed up place full of factions willing to duke it out (which Kira was able to forget about or ignore since she was off in space) and they ended up losing the two biggest hopes they had for unity (Kai Opaka and Sisko the Emissary).

They didn't say that, though. They said it was time to move on, just like *gasp* Riker & Troi with the Titan, or Sulu on the Excelsior. Dax and Bashir were still onboard, as were people like Jake (the person most likely to leave due to bad memories, decides to stay instead). Nog was promoted and the station is still under Starfleet's jurisdiction.

On top of all that, it's pretty telling that our heroes won largely by sticking to their Federation ideals. When Ross, Sisko, and Martok land on Cardassia, only Martok celebrates the victory. Ross and Sisko refuse to drink to the success of the war. After all that violence and all the death, they refuse to breathe that sigh of relief; Starfleet officers never revel or glorify war.

Thing is, they didn't. Sisko destroyed the Federations' ideals and "The Dream" all on his own in "Pale Moonlight" despite his hypocrisy over it in later episodes. And peace was only achieved because a renegade faction introduced a killer virus into the Great Link and the cure was used as a bargaining chip. It wasn't ideals that won out at all.

I don't get where all this nit-picking and selective-memory hate is coming from. Despite all the mayhem one of the major themes of the show was that our heroes never truly gave up hope, and they did indeed win in the end. No one can deny that.

Oh they won, but it wasn't because of hope. That's not for DS9.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Anwar, that post shows you as an example of negative thinking, choosing always to see the worst in any situation or person, and absolutely refusing to see hope for the future.

Which is very ironic, since that kind of thinking is allegedly what you keep criticizing.

 

[rahullak]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why someone would want to hate something and show their hate to the world. As if they were trying to prove something by it.
If I really don't like something, I usually ignore/forget about it and focus on the things I do like. Sorry to get offtopic and slightly preachish here, but this thread seems to have gone almost completely over to the dark side

Oh btw, I found this cool feature in this forum called the ignore list.

 

[rahullak]

"Rorschach's Journal. July 5, 2009.

Ran into minor annoyance today. Self-described non-Deep Space Nine hater who clearly despises Deep Space Nine. Couldn't stop talking about how said show is the worst thing ever. Name of Anwar. Madly in love with the sound of own voice. Or sight of words rather. Incapable of tolerating other opinions. Enraged over minority status. Inability to let things go and not have the final word. Veidt and him would become fast friends. Displayed an almost trollish ability to hijack threads. Rabid Voyager fan. Possible Communist connection. Must investigate further."

Good one.... Couldn't help but appreciate this!

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, it shows that the people who disagree with me most choose to emulate a violent, mentally unstable objectivist as their mouthpiece. A guy's argument is partially defined by those who disagree and if Rorschach is one of them I've got nothing to worry about.

As for "thinking too negatively" I'm just extrapolating from the kind of characters and universe DS9 gave us for the logical conclusion. Not my fault if what I was extrapolating from for the conclusion wasn't very nice or hopeful to begin with. Matter of circumstances.

 

[Praetorian]

Hum, while I usually don't agree with Anwar I must say I see no flaws in his last post. Those *are* the conclusions one would take from watching Ds9.

Though I don't think DS9 was that dark or depressing really. If anything it was more realistic, therefore less hopefull and idealistic even if it had some of that as well...

But the idea that if you work hard enough you may become a better person and create a better world was somewhat lost in the end. Sisko and Starfleet decide to outright lie and be dishonest in ITPM and Section 31 decides to exterminate a people. Something that Starfleet and the Federation eventually came to condone!

Gone were the days of Kirk's "I will not kill today!"

Still, I enjoyed the show a great deal!

P.S. I do think the "O'Brien was traumatized and just wanted to get the hell out of there!" issue is really baseless, but Cardassia never fully recovering, the Changelings not getting past their distrust of solids and their need to control them and relations falling out again between Romulus and the UFP are quite probable!

And Bajor? It didn't even join the UFP and got past its *transitional government*, though things did seem more hopefull to me. The Emissary left but he completed his destiny and Kai Winn was no longer around (however her turning to the Dark Side was another sad turn of events!). I see no reason why Bajor wouldn't soon join the UFP! The planet didn't strike me as being particularly divided or in shambles at the end... but then Bajor hardly got any focus past Season 3...

Also it's true that all kinds of different people came together, Humans, Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, Bajorans, Ferengi and others, though mostly because their existance was in danger. I'm not sure if that is really hopefull or not...

 

[rahullak]

As for "thinking too negatively" I'm just extrapolating from the kind of characters and universe DS9 gave us for the logical conclusion. Not my fault if what I was extrapolating from for the conclusion wasn't very nice or hopeful to begin with. Matter of circumstances.

The trouble is, you extrapolated and blew up only the negative side of it completely ignoring everything else because in your mind the premise for DS9 is "It's all Dark and Dangerous and No good can come of it".

I think the premise is more close to "It's not all hunky dory....it's real and believable, at times with great promise and hope, at times full of despair, and yet with a positive future."

 

[DevilEyes]

As for "thinking too negatively" I'm just extrapolating from the kind of characters and universe DS9 gave us for the logical conclusion. Not my fault if what I was extrapolating from for the conclusion wasn't very nice or hopeful to begin with. Matter of circumstances.

And you don't find it strange that other people - who happen to, you know, like DS9 - did not see your conclusion as the only "logical conclusion"?

So, I guess either
1) you are the only one who knows THE TRUTH, and everyone else is deluded, but you are going to open our eyes! We didn't know we loved a show that promoted lack of hope, but you are going to make us SEE!
or
2) you are just being deliberately negative and choosing to interpret things in the darkest possible way, while ignoring everything that contradicts your bleak view.

Take a pick... which one seems more likely?

If you believe in 1), well, I see a logical problem with that. You're trying to convince us that we're oh so "deluded" that we saw hope where you only see negativity. But see, we're talking about FICTION, you know, and not real life, so we don't know for sure what would happen in their future, and the only "truth" is what we get from the show.
Am I wrong or not that you think Star Trek should convey "messages" to viewers?
Which begs the question... If we were messages of hope and positivity in a fictional work in which you don't see any, and you have a problem with that are are trying so hard to convince us that the message is only negative... what are you trying to do here, exactly?

 

[TheGodBen]

Yeah, it shows that the people who disagree with me most choose to emulate a violent, mentally unstable objectivist as their mouthpiece.

"The problem with society is everyone else."

 

[Anwar]

As for "thinking too negatively" I'm just extrapolating from the kind of characters and universe DS9 gave us for the logical conclusion. Not my fault if what I was extrapolating from for the conclusion wasn't very nice or hopeful to begin with. Matter of circumstances.

The trouble is, you extrapolated and blew up only the negative side of it completely ignoring everything else because in your mind the premise for DS9 is "It's all Dark and Dangerous and No good can come of it".

I think the premise is more close to "It's not all hunky dory....it's real and believable, at times with great promise and hope, at times full of despair, and yet with a positive future."

I'd say Behr's premise was "Everything will as lousy in the future as it is today, humanity is essentially never going to grow past what it is now and nothing the characters do or say to the contrary will ever change that so deal with it." in how he basically took anything good and idealistic from TNG and smashed it to little bits.

Which begs the question... If we were messages of hope and positivity in a fictional work in which you don't see any, and you have a problem with that are are trying so hard to convince us that the message is only negative... what are you trying to do here, exactly?

Take all this "hopeful" stuff you see in DS9 and show it for what it really is.

"The problem with society is everyone else.

I sincerely hope the sheer narcissism and potential delusion of that statement isn't lost on you. But don't worry, I'll be there to tie the pretty bow on your straitjacket .

 

[mattyhugh]

I'd say Behr's premise was "Everything will as lousy in the future as it is today, humanity is essentially never going to grow past what it is now and nothing the characters do or say to the contrary will ever change that so deal with it." in how he basically took anything good and idealistic from TNG and smashed it to little bits.

Ahh, but those "smashed little bits" were still far superior

 

[Thrall]

Yeah, it shows that the people who disagree with me most choose to emulate a violent, mentally unstable objectivist as their mouthpiece.

"The problem with society is everyone else."

Yeah. That violent, mentally unstable objectivist at least knew when to shut up when no one was listening to him. I could stand to be in the same room with him, because he at least wasn't in love with the sound of his own voice. He's also a fictional character. The narcissistic troll hijacking this thread, because he HAS to have the last word about everything, is sadly very real.

 

[GalaxyX]

My biggest complaints about DS9 are all superficial

 

[DevilEyes]

Who implied that about the Feds and the Romulans?

Sloan and Section 31.

Let's remember the events of Nemesis and the spirit of cooperation there.

Yes, but that was a TNG movie and thus it was more optimistic and not in the vein of DS9.



The Dominion's been doing their thing for thousands of years, one guy saying "Wait a minute" isn't going to change anything. He can work as hard as he wants, but his hard work won't pay off. And the Female Changling (before the Treaty and the cure) pretty much was going on about how in the end the Dominion would triumph anyways. I doubt them being cured would change that attitude since they were all dying from a virus introduced to them even before the war started.

Yes, and their planet is still an utterly trashed place full of death and persecution and angry folks whose real satisfaction came not from peaceful coexistence but from their oppressors suffering nearly and equal genocide and devastation. Violence and strife was simply rewarded with an equal amount for the others instead any sort of peaceful future.

I was referring to Bajor actually, not Cardassia.



Cardassia suffer massive genocide and the all but total annihilation of their industrial base and infrastructure, and even if it is rebuilt odds are the rebuilt planet will just be a pacified puppet state for the other powers and never allowed to be it's own place anymore.



All the "O'Brien must suffer" episodes would leave a bad mark on anyone, and considering that it's no wonder he accepted the offer and left no matter what good memories there were.



He secretly hoped that one day through his efforts he'd be able to go back to Cardassia. He works hard to do so, ultimately becoming a different man than he was, only when he gets there it's a ruin and odds are it'll never be the place he loved so much to begin with anymore.



They ARE wasting their time, they just don't realize it and don't understand the odds or greater circumstances they're going against. That's not hopeful, it's delusional.

Here are the most glaring example of Anwar's extreme negativity, cynicism and nihilism, which makes him a huge HYPOCRITE.

1) He subscribes to the views of LUTHER SLOAN of SECTION 31 of all people (!!!), and insists that Luther Sloan's view and Section 31's predictions for the future must be true!

2) He completely denigrates Odo's noble efforts and hope he has to make his people understand others and change their xenophobic views, showing them the love and friendship he felt in relationships with solids. Even though there is NOTHING in the show itself to suggest that Odo's efforts will be in vain - on the contrary, DS9 finale ends on a note of hope - Anwar is just too eager to shoot it down. And based on what? On the argument "They have been like that for thousands of years, they are never going to change". No comment necessary.

3) Furthermore, Anwar takes a character who is a known racist and genocidal mass murderer (the Female Changeling), as representative of an entire race, while ignoring and disparaging (as naive and idealistic?) the opinion of a character who believes he can change his people for the better (Odo).

So, for Anwar, the characters in DS9 whose opinions and predictions abotu the future are worthwhile are Luther Sloan and the Female Changeling. Brilliant. Is Anwar seriously suggesting that a show's message is likely to be conveyed through opinions of two supporting villainous characters who are both genocidal criminals, rather than through opinions of the show's main characters, and far more sympathetic characters, such as Odo?

4) He suggests that Bajorans felt satisfaction from Cardassians suffering genocide and destruction! This is completely Anwar's interpretation, as the show didn't show any Bajorans gloating over the fate of Cardassia or saying "Serves them right" or whatever. Anwar is the one arguing that the majority of people are likely to feel that way. So, either he thinks that Bajorans are in majority vengeful and racist (I would like to see arguments for that one), or that most people in real life generally are vengeful and racist, or that Cardassians "deserve what they get" as some kind of "poetic justice", which in itself would be an incredibly ugly and racist statement.

Less cynical people, like myself, saw what happened to Cardassia not as some kind of "poetic justice" or cosmic punishment, but as an example that the historical roles change all the time and every state, race and group of people can be oppressor or a victim, depending on the circumstances. Just like the Changelings were the oppressed for so long, then turned into the biggest of oppressors, before nearly perishing as victims of genocide.

We didn't really see many Bajorans express what they feel about the Cardassian fate, but the one we did see, Kira, didn't show any satisfaction or pleasure in seeing the devastation and deaths of Cardassians. She did have a moment when she couldn't help reminding Damar of the parallel with what Cardassians had done on Bajor, but it was not presented as a moment of gloating, but rather as a case of asking "Do you understand now?" (and for which she immediately felt bad), and most importantly, this was presented as a moment when a Cardassian military officer like Damar starts to understand for the first time the mistakes of the past and the wrongness of what Cardassians had done on Bajor. The show emphasizes the difference between the people who can't understand the mistakes of the past or decide to let go of old prejudice (Rusot), and those who can (Damar, Garak), which allows them to become heroes and build a new Cardassia.

After the end of war, the show let Martok voice the callous sentiment "Who cares about the dead, they are Cardies" which, realistically, would be some people's reaction, but it is doubtful that it would be the reaction of the majority, and certainly not of everyone who has historically been an enemy terms with Cardassia: and the show has its main character, Federation Captain Sisko, and a Federation Admiral, voice the humane reaction of sorrow over the deaths of millions.

5) As for O'Brien - to argue that he left DS9 because he hated being "tortured" is just ridiculous. None of the torture and unhappiness he suffered had anything to do with people of DS9, they were all caused by outside forces, and he had no reason to feel any resentment towards the station itself, where he also had many more happy moments. There is nothing in the show itself to suggest that O'Brien resented or hated the station or his friends - that is another thing that Anwar is choosing to read into the story.

There is a huge difference between realism and nihilism. But apparently, for some people like Anwar there are just two possibilities: fairytales where everything is 100% happy, sweet and hunky dory and everyone is perfect, and a more realistic world which they tend to see through dark-coloured glasses. The nihilistic and cynical messages are not messages that DS9 is trying to send, these are so obviously messages that Anwar wants to see and the ones that he wants to impose on everyone else, and to do so, he has to use the most cynical and nihilistic arguments. The level of hypocrisy is really astounding.

 

[Cyke101]

Yeah, it shows that the people who disagree with me most choose to emulate a violent, mentally unstable objectivist as their mouthpiece.

With all due respect, you've just accused an entire race of being unable to rise out of savagery and said another race should gloat from the "victory" over a similarly victimized race. Sweeping generalization after sweeping generalization all along racial lines. Odo is different than the Female Changeling, Kira is different than Winn, Bashir is different than Sloan, Worf is different than Gowron, and yet somehow the more evil of each pair is the real representative of their race in your opinion. And what about all the inbetween, including the vast unseen majorities? Are they by default hopeless?

Frankly, which poster here is the one with more violent tendencies? I'm guessing that for the most part, it definitely is not the group that disagree with you here, the group that's defending the virtues of a culturally diverse galaxy in the aftermath of something as drastic to the sensitive status quo as war. You make yet another blanket generalization that all those who disagree with you are violent, and yet you're the one accusing the races of Trek of being unbending and uncompromising in their ways. That logic in and of itself is *extremely* violent (re: Central America, Africa).

~snipped to save space~

And here I was ready to go blow for blow with Anwar, but you did it in more nuanced and detailed ways than I ever could. It's funny how he's so quick to vehemently call anyone who dislikes Voyager a hater (even from a constructive-criticism point of view) and yet is even quicker to resort to the very same behavior against DS9, stretching logic beyond reason and well beyond writers' intent in an effort to reimagine the show as one gigantic pimple on Trek's behind.

It's really ironic that Anwar believes there's no effort to portray positive hope whatsoever in DS9, and yet is unconditionally, beyond all doubt convinced that the Changelings have hatred built into their genetic structure, Cardassia will remain an eternal graveyard, Romulans will forever be shady to our heroes, and that Sloan is the best the Federation has to offer -- all in all, that positive change is impossible and has never been done in the real world, despite the real world repeatedly showing us that it's been done before and done well. How fitting is it that the cynic accuses something of having nothing positive to share? Someone needs a kitten, stat.

And this all relates to TNG vs. DS9 how again?

 

[Anwar]

Here are the most glaring example of Anwar's extreme negativity, cynicism and nihilism, which makes him a huge HYPOCRITE.

I'm reflecting what DS9 presented. If a show had good hopefulness that outweighed the bad in a logical fashion then there wouldn't be any negativity, cynicism or nihilism.

1) He subscribes to the views of LUTHER SLOAN of SECTION 31 of all people (!!!), and insists that Luther Sloan's view and Section 31's predictions for the future must be true!

Given that it's DS9, it's only natural that the writers would've had him and Sec 31 be the ones speaking the most probable truth.

2) He completely denigrates Odo's noble efforts and hope he has to make his people understand others and change their xenophobic views, showing them the love and friendship he felt in relationships with solids. Even though there is NOTHING in the show itself to suggest that Odo's efforts will be in vain - on the contrary, DS9 finale ends on a note of hope - Anwar is just too eager to shoot it down. And based on what? On the argument "They have been like that for thousands of years, they are never going to change". No comment necessary.

The Dominion's own history and experiences (several millenia of hatred and persecution) without a single one changling being able to change their minds or reconsider and we're supposed to believe that just because one guy who had good experience with some people in his life (but plenty of bad ones too, most of which we didn't see) will be able to make some massive turnaround? Especially after the most peaceful group of Solids in Trek nearly annihilated all of them with a plague they used Odo as a carrier for? It's not my fault if the writers set up such a hopeless scenario in the first place.

3) Furthermore, Anwar takes a character who is a known racist and genocidal mass murderer (the Female Changeling), as representative of an entire race, while ignoring and disparaging (as naive and idealistic?) the opinion of a character who believes he can change his people for the better (Odo).

See above.

So, for Anwar, the characters in DS9 whose opinions and predictions abotu the future are worthwhile are Luther Sloan and the Female Changeling. Brilliant. Is Anwar seriously suggesting that a show's message is likely to be conveyed through opinions of two supporting villainous characters who are both genocidal criminals, rather than through opinions of the show's main characters, and far more sympathetic characters, such as Odo?

Given that it's DS9, yes. It's sad but that's the way the writers presented the whole thing.

4) He suggests that Bajorans felt satisfaction from Cardassians suffering genocide and destruction! This is completely Anwar's interpretation, as the show didn't show any Bajorans gloating over the fate of Cardassia or saying "Serves them right" or whatever. Anwar is the one arguing that the majority of people are likely to feel that way. So, either he thinks that Bajorans are in majority vengeful and racist (I would like to see arguments for that one), or that most people in real life generally are vengeful and racist, or that Cardassians "deserve what they get" as some kind of "poetic justice", which in itself would be an incredibly ugly and racist statement.

Not racist, but vengeful on the Cardassians sure. And seeing how many Bajorans despise the Cardassians throughout the show and how they were on about how the Cardies ravaged their world and their people, etc them enjoying the Cardassians' destruction would be the logical reaction. You think they all held pity parties for every Cardie they came across and has a "Feel bad for Cardassia" day? That's not how the show set them up.

Less cynical people, like myself, saw what happened to Cardassia not as some kind of "poetic justice" or cosmic punishment, but as an example that the historical roles change all the time and every state, race and group of people can be oppressor or a victim, depending on the circumstances. Just like the Changelings were the oppressed for so long, then turned into the biggest of oppressors, before nearly perishing as victims of genocide.

They even used Garak at the end to openly state that the Cardassians had it coming for their actions throughout history, the writers basically used him in that moment to personify their own views and justifications for it (I disagreed and felt this was a very bad thing, but this is what the show said). You're just trying to soften/ignore what they were doing.

We didn't really see many Bajorans express what they feel about the Cardassian fate, but the one we did see, Kira, didn't show any satisfaction or pleasure in seeing the devastation and deaths of Cardassians. She did have a moment when she couldn't help reminding Damar of the parallel with what Cardassians had done on Bajor, but it was not presented as a moment of gloating, but rather as a case of asking "Do you understand now?" (and for which she immediately felt bad), and most importantly, this was presented as a moment when a Cardassian military officer like Damar starts to understand for the first time the mistakes of the past and the wrongness of what Cardassians had done on Bajor. The show emphasizes the difference between the people who can't understand the mistakes of the past or decide to let go of old prejudice (Rusot), and those who can (Damar, Garak), which allows them to become heroes and build a new Cardassia.

Most of Kira's more "Bajoran" views and the like were dismissed after the first season or so and she was Sisko's right hand woman, plus she likved on DS9 for a long time instead of on the planet which was still full of fresh wounds meaning she wouldn't have reacted to what happened to Cardassia the same way someone who was living on Bajor in the middle of a still-ravaged region would have. Take the common oppressed Bajoran, show them what happened and they'd rub it in Damar's face. The reason the show didn't show us other Bajorans would likely for this reason and there was only so much they could get away with. Then at the end we have Garak at the ruins of Cardassia stating that his home is truly gone and no amount of rebuilding will ever bring it back, that's not a hopeful statement about a "Better Cardassia".

After the end of war, the show let Martok voice the callous sentiment "Who cares about the dead, they are Cardies" which, realistically, would be some people's reaction, but it is doubtful that it would be the reaction of the majority, and certainly not of everyone who has historically been an enemy terms with Cardassia: and the show has its main character, Federation Captain Sisko, and a Federation Admiral, voice the humane reaction of sorrow over the deaths of millions.

And the scene ends with Martok just standing there with a "what's with those two pricks?" look on his face while he chugs down the wine. Again, negative attitude isn't pointed out, he's just left there enjoying himself and this attitude is thereby presented as being a good one. Plus I already pointed out Sisko's prior hypocrisy in "Pale Moonlight" over Fed ideals and earlier in the finale he essentially told Work to assassinate Gowron.

5) As for O'Brien - to argue that he left DS9 because he hated being "tortured" is just ridiculous. None of the torture and unhappiness he suffered had anything to do with people of DS9, they were all caused by outside forces, and he had no reason to feel any resentment towards the station itself, where he also had many more happy moments. There is nothing in the show itself to suggest that O'Brien resented or hated the station or his friends - that is another thing that Anwar is choosing to read into the story.

So stuff like his wife being possessed by a Pagh Wraith would have happened anywhere else aside from DS9? Any of the Gamma Quadrant bad things that happened?

There is a huge difference between realism and nihilism. But apparently, for some people like Anwar there are just two possibilities: fairytales where everything is 100% happy, sweet and hunky dory and everyone is perfect, and a more realistic world which they tend to see through dark-coloured glasses. The nihilistic and cynical messages are not messages that DS9 is trying to send, these are so obviously messages that Anwar wants to see and the ones that he wants to impose on everyone else, and to do so, he has to use the most cynical and nihilistic arguments. The level of hypocrisy is really astounding.

Maybe they didn't intend to send those nihilistic messages, but given how they portrayed and presented things those ARE what were presented even if they tried to wrap it in an idealistic cloth. They tried to have the good and noble things come off as the stronger, but had things be inherently too cynical for this to show through. I'm just pointing that out. Nothing hypocritical about that, it's just how the show actually was.