TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[Ronald Held]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

About 20% into it. Seems to be moving along faster than recent books. No doubt I will be commenting on what happen to Leah, for one.

 

[Christopher]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

But now for my problem. As I suspected, the Data-resurrection was handled in such a way as to carefully avoid any reset button, set up new possibilities that don't undermine the emotional arcs we've already seen, and satisfy most of my concerns regarding general resurrection plots. I thought Janeway's resurrection was well-handled, and I think Data's what-for-convenience's-sake-we'll-call-a-resurrection was well handled too. And that's my problem. I don't like characters returning from the dead or getting another chance at life. If it were up to me and me alone, I would have left Janeway dead and I would have left Data dead. Now both the most prominant main characters to die are back in some fashion, and this doesn't sit well with me. And yet, I think that both resurrection storys were handled with skill, competence and respect, and I don't feel it's fair or indeed valid to complain. It's not a reset button. It doesn't undermine what's come before. Both returns will please those readers who wanted the characters back while, on the whole, not offending or annoying those who wanted (unofficially at least) a no-resurrection policy. They're good compromises that don't sacrifice any of the plots' capacity to be strong and worthwhile stories. Data's return isn't a reset.

And I'm a little bummed by that, to be honest. I sort of feel, on some irrational level, that I've been led to happily give a thumbs up to something that I wouldn't usually support. Janeway's back and now Data's...well, not dead. That makes me want to sigh, but I'm okay with it because both "return" novels were handled so well.

Do you see my dilemma?

I sympathize. My view is that resurrection as a plot device is overused, but as with any trope, there can be exceptions, cases where it works and is worthwhile. And by luck of the draw, we've gotten two such exceptions in the course of a few months. Just think of it as a statistical fluke.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I think that both resurrection storys were handled with skill, competence and respect, and I don't feel it's fair or indeed valid to complain.

I disagree, I don't care how well its written. Resurrections and reset buttons are cheap plot devices that sucks any lasting meaning out of Star Trek no matter what justification.

I mean for god's sake DC Comics used Blackest Night to try to put an end to resurrecting super heroes in their books. If a comic book company which uses something a lot tends to see continuing to use it as a bad thing sound't that tell you something.

It's not a reset button.

If he's dead at one point, and then alive a t another its a reset plain and simple, it doesn't matter if the authors use some contrived horrible cost, or try to make it ambiguous. You're still mashing the reset button.

It doesn't undermine what's come before.

Yes, it does things have changed since they were gone and new characters where introduced, characters have even moved on with their lives. How is it emotionally healthy in the slightest to begin the grieving process only to have it interrupted because said character comes back.

Both returns will please those readers who wanted the characters back while, on the whole, not offending or annoying those who wanted (unofficially at least) a no-resurrection policy.

WRONG! I am very much annoyed by Treklit's lack of the necessary back bone to make major changes and stick with them. I feels like a bait and switch where I think Star Trek is actually changing with the times and staying relevant but in reality they just go back to the same stuff that helped to kill it in the first place.

I also don't like that with Janeway I character I actually liked (Eden) was tossed out for a character I don't care that much about (Janeway). I mean its worse in that its just another way Janeway get out of the consequences of her actions.

And with Data, I don't like his character arc being arbitraily reset for whatever reason, Just like how i don't like Indistinguishabe From Magic being reset into oblivion for the same reason.

They're good compromises that don't sacrifice any of the plots' capacity to be strong and worthwhile stories.

And here's my problem this whole its a good compromise crap.

THERE IS NO GOOD COMPROMISE HERE!

Either you kepp a dead character dead or you don't bother killing them in the first place No if, ands, or buts about it.

One is a sign or promoting maturity an a nice amount of realism in Star Trek which are important to making people other than its declining fanbase interested in it.

There other caters to a myth about trek and is soething that really needs to be droped from it unless you want it to go fro Science-Fiction, to Science Fantasy

Data's return isn't a reset.

If he goes from a state of death to a state of living it sure as hell is.

That makes me want to sigh, but I'm okay with it because both "return" novels were handled so well.

It should matter how well something is written if its something you disagree with you shouldn't be okay with it, and should be able to say so.

I sympathize. My view is that resurrection as a plot device is overused, but as with any trope, there can be exceptions, cases where it works and is worthwhile. And by luck of the draw, we've gotten two such exceptions in the course of a few months. Just think of it as a statistical fluke.

I disagree, I think its a cheap gimmick that sucks the realism out wherever its used and takes away from the consequences of a characters action.

In fact this is one of the reaons I'm glde J.J. Abrams is running the franchise now, becuase he's so far gotten rid of it, and the rest button.

and I don't buy Janeway's resurrection being an exception to the ressurections suck rule, especially since I liked Eden way more than Janeway.

I also don't like that yet again Janeway gets out of the consequences of her hubris, I don't like designated heros who are also karmic houdinis.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I should have thought of this during TNG and when there seemed to be an unknown Soong android escaping. Geordi's story of Dr Tanner got me wondering why Soong did not transfer his engrams to an android before he died. Since I am up to the flashback, I know the answer. I do not seem to have any problem with this.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

THERE IS NO GOOD COMPROMISE HERE!

Either you kepp a dead character dead or you don't bother killing them in the first place No if, ands, or buts about it.

I meant compromise in terms of reader desire; creating a story that pleases those readers who want to see a character return, and also satisfies many of those readers who dislike resurrection as a plot device because it undermines the power of death and emotional responses to such. Obviously nothing's going to please everyone, but I think both recent resurrection stories tread the line of compromise regarding reader desire, and deliberately so, aware that they're dealing with different and opposing viewpoints among their audience. I appreciate that. And the authors are going to want to appeal to as many readers as possible while also telling an interesting story.

I wasn't trying to suggest that there can be a compromise between a state of "staying dead" and "not staying dead". Of course there can't. I meant compromise in terms of story-telling choice.

As I've said from the start, I don't like resurrections and would prefer they never be used. But I did like the two novels, The Eternal Tide and The Persistence of Memory, and I did appreciate the sensitivity with which both - in my opinion - handled the issue. I'm pleased we get so many Trek books by quality authors, so I'm not going to condemn any given novel because it doesn't match my personal desires. I'd rather take the good I find in the handling of the plot and the new stories that will be told with the returned characters (now that I'm reassured that there will be some emotional consequences rather than pretending the character never died at all) than take a negative opinion because a convention I dislike - resurrection - was used.

I'm just saying in my earlier post that I'm quite aware of the tension between that take on things and my dislike for resurrection, which is why I feel a bit uneasy.

 

[shanejayell]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I thought this was a interesting angle, because of the basic question of 'Is this Data or not?'

I mean, YES he has Data's memories. And Soong's. And Lore. And Lal. And the colonists. All in a new body that's a major upgrade from Data 1.0. So what is he? Is he the same as before? Clearly no. But is he still Data?

 

[Markonian]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Concerning Spot: "He" was mentioned to be more than 15 years old by now.

I am surprised. Over the course of the series several actors of different varieties portrayed Spot, who was sometimes depicted as male and female (e.g. when she got kittens). The simplest solution to me was that Data had several cats over time, whom he all called "Spot".

Maybe the one Spot had several sex-changing surgeries?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

THERE IS NO GOOD COMPROMISE HERE!

Either you kepp a dead character dead or you don't bother killing them in the first place No if, ands, or buts about it.

I meant compromise in terms of reader desire; creating a story that pleases those readers who want to see a character return, and also satisfies many of those readers who dislike resurrection as a plot device because it undermines the power of death and emotional responses to such.

And I don't think such a compromise is possibble, beucase you're still ressurecting a character, you can dress it up with a cost, or ambiguity but it still using that tired trope.

Obviously nothing's going to please everyone, but I think both recent resurrection stories tread the line of compromise regarding reader desire, and deliberately so, aware that they're dealing with different and opposing viewpoints among their audience.

All they did was sugar coat the reset button with blood shed and ambiguity, they took a bad idea and wrote it well but its still a bad idea.

I appreciate that. And the authors are going to want to appeal to as many readers as possible while also telling an interesting story.

It seems to me their only appealing to the same declining fanbase that makes Trek unveasible on TV.

I wasn't trying to suggest that there can be a compromise between a state of "staying dead" and "not staying dead". Of course there can't. I meant compromise in terms of story-telling choice.

Which I don't think can happen. I only see two ways in which trek can go a modern story telling way where if people die they stay dead and consequences exist, or the same tired magic fairly land where if something happens that you don't like a magic author will undo it.

I'd perfer the modern story telling one.

As I've said from the start, I don't like resurrections and would prefer they never be used. But I did like the two novels, The Eternal Tide and The Persistence of Memory, and I did appreciate the sensitivity with which both - in my opinion - handled the issue.

I've seen stories that handel ressurections better, The Mirror Universe Saga where Spock was sent off on a new ship and the crew continuted on the Excelsior saving DC Comics' at the time developments.

The other being the New Frontier Excalibur Trilogy where Calhoun's death was ambiguious enough that they could get away with reveling that he hadn't been killed and they used it to make some considerable changes to the series.

I'm pleased we get so many Trek books by quality authors, so I'm not going to condemn any given novel because it doesn't match my personal desires.

This isn't just about my personal desires Trek is never going to survive if they still do the same crap that got it cancelled no matter how well their writting it now.

I'd rather take the good I find in the handling of the plot and the new stories that will be told with the returned characters (now that I'm reassured that there will be some emotional consequences rather than pretending the character never died at all) than take a negative opinion because a convention I dislike - resurrection - was used.

And I'd rather they didn't bring back dead characters especilly when doing so not only gets rid of a character I like more to bring one I didn't give a crap about while blowing up her importance to mary sue proportions but takes an interesting new storyline and shoves the conclusion down my throat instead of properly devloping it, or undoing a chracter's arc just to have them around.

I'm just saying in my earlier post that I'm quite aware of the tension between that take on things and my dislike for resurrection, which is why I feel a bit uneasy.

And I think you should think about your unease, about it and wonder if this was such a good idea why are you concerned? becuase I think we should ask ourselves if this was such a good idea why does it leave you feeling uneasy?

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Concerning Spot: "He" was mentioned to be more than 15 years old by now.

I am surprised. Over the course of the series several actors of different varieties portrayed Spot, who was sometimes depicted as male and female (e.g. when she got kittens). The simplest solution to me was that Data had several cats over time, whom he all called "Spot".

Maybe the one Spot had several sex-changing surgeries?

Well, we know Spot was a he in some episodes but female enough to have kittens in season 6

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Wait.. isn't it obvious... they replaced Spot with an android with Lore's brain!

 

[JD]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

WRONG! I am very much annoyed by Treklit's lack of the necessary back bone to make major changes and stick with them. I feels like a bait and switch where I think Star Trek is actually changing with the times and staying relevant but in reality they just go back to the same stuff that helped to kill it in the first place.

I also don't like that with Janeway I character I actually liked (Eden) was tossed out for a character I don't care that much about (Janeway). I mean its worse in that its just another way Janeway get out of the consequences of her actions.

And with Data, I don't like his character arc being arbitraily reset for whatever reason, Just like how i don't like Indistinguishabe From Magic being reset into oblivion for the same reason.

Well, Data was killed in a movie, and Janeway was killed by a different author under different editors, so the people making the changes aren't the same people who made the original decisions.
As for the whole idea of resurrection overall I've had a bit of a change of heart over the last few days. I admit I never used to like it, but as I've thought about it the past few days, and looked at how it's been done over the years I've started to have less of a problem with it. IMO as long as it's done well, and in a way that works with the laws of the universe I really don't mind. I know it's unrealistic, but sometimes with stuff like this it can be nice to escape from realty.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

^ The quote's a little messed up. You've got me quoting Hartzilla's response to me.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

WRONG! I am very much annoyed by Treklit's lack of the necessary back bone to make major changes and stick with them. I feels like a bait and switch where I think Star Trek is actually changing with the times and staying relevant but in reality they just go back to the same stuff that helped to kill it in the first place.

I also don't like that with Janeway I character I actually liked (Eden) was tossed out for a character I don't care that much about (Janeway). I mean its worse in that its just another way Janeway get out of the consequences of her actions.

And with Data, I don't like his character arc being arbitraily reset for whatever reason, Just like how i don't like Indistinguishabe From Magic being reset into oblivion for the same reason.

Well, Data was killed in a movie, and Janeway was killed by a different author under different editors, so the people making the changes aren't the same people who made the original decisions.
As for the whole idea of resurrection overall I've had a bit of a change of heart over the last few days. I admit I never used to like it, but as I've thought about it the past few days, and looked at how it's been done over the years I've started to have less of a problem with it. IMO as long as it's done well, and in a way that works with the laws of the universe I really don't mind. I know it's unrealistic, but sometimes with stuff like this it can be nice to escape from realty.

Where as I used to be okay with it, until Spock was treated as the rule and not the exception.

I also don't like the seemingly current obsession with the reset button.

Before this it seemed that Star Trek was moving in a more mature direction, now it seems to be going back to the same childish stuff that probably helped kill it on TV. I mean at this point I'm expecting Picard to go back to giving holier than thou speeches about how perfect humanity is and how everyone should be like them.

And I can't help but start to feel that I'm paying about $7 for well written fan-fiction with all the fix ficing that seems to be going on.

 

[BillJ]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I think part of the problem is that as the books continue to move forward they're going to become unrecogizable to casual readers. Data allows them to have a long-term connection to the original TNG TV series. I believe, long-term (unless they reboot the books at some point) Data will be back in Starfleet and in command of the Enterprise.

Lets face it, the authors have really struggled to create characters for TNG that have had any kind of staying power post-Nemesis.

 

[fleetcaptain]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Got my copy of Immortal Coil on friday and started to read it that night. Still haven't got my copy of Book One yet since well Jersey did get hit by Sandy. Just happy we didn't here but still thats sad with the situation up there.

 

[JD]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I think part of the problem is that as the books continue to move forward they're going to become unrecogizable to casual readers. Data allows them to have a long-term connection to the original TNG TV series. I believe, long-term (unless they reboot the books at some point) Data will be back in Starfleet and in command of the Enterprise.

Lets face it, the authors have really struggled to create characters for TNG that have had any kind of staying power post-Nemesis.

I can imagine it's got to be quite a struggle for the people behind the scenes to decide to if you want to bring back the popular characters, who might be able to draw in more readers, or keep things more realistic and create new characters and hope that the readers like them. Personally, I can see the appeal of bringing back the popular characters, especially from a marketing standpoint.

EDIT:

^ The quote's a little messed up. You've got me quoting Hartzilla's response to me.

Fixed. Sorry about that.

WRONG! I am very much annoyed by Treklit's lack of the necessary back bone to make major changes and stick with them. I feels like a bait and switch where I think Star Trek is actually changing with the times and staying relevant but in reality they just go back to the same stuff that helped to kill it in the first place.

I also don't like that with Janeway I character I actually liked (Eden) was tossed out for a character I don't care that much about (Janeway). I mean its worse in that its just another way Janeway get out of the consequences of her actions.

And with Data, I don't like his character arc being arbitraily reset for whatever reason, Just like how i don't like Indistinguishabe From Magic being reset into oblivion for the same reason.

Well, Data was killed in a movie, and Janeway was killed by a different author under different editors, so the people making the changes aren't the same people who made the original decisions.
As for the whole idea of resurrection overall I've had a bit of a change of heart over the last few days. I admit I never used to like it, but as I've thought about it the past few days, and looked at how it's been done over the years I've started to have less of a problem with it. IMO as long as it's done well, and in a way that works with the laws of the universe I really don't mind. I know it's unrealistic, but sometimes with stuff like this it can be nice to escape from realty.

Where as I used to be okay with it, until Spock was treated as the rule and not the exception.

I also don't like the seemingly current obsession with the reset button.

Before this it seemed that Star Trek was moving in a more mature direction, now it seems to be going back to the same childish stuff that probably helped kill it on TV. I mean at this point I'm expecting Picard to go back to giving holier than thou speeches about how perfect humanity is and how everyone should be like them.

And I can't help but start to feel that I'm paying about $7 for well written fan-fiction with all the fix ficing that seems to be going on.

I don't really see how bringing back popular characters suddenly makes the books less mature? They still seem to be dealing with some pretty heavy topics, and tackling some pretty complex ideas. Not to mention that they're putting in a lot more sex & violence then we ever got on the shows.
I don't think that bringing these characters back would be considered a "reset button". I'll be honest, I haven't read them yet, but I have been reading the spoiler threads for a whole and I have a pretty good idea of how things went down. From everything I've heard it does sound like even though the characters are back, the storylines and character development that took place while they are gone was not erased. It seems to me that the characters' returns were not simply developments in continuing stories, and that they did not in fact erase the death, they came back. From I've heard it sounds like both characters have been changed by what the experienced. IMO as long as the deaths still happened it's not a reset button.

 

[Sho]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

It's funny, for a democratic body ran by a civilian government. It seems Starfleet has an awful lot of power to come in and take over without even consulting the government. Like a battalion commander shutting down Ohio without first consulting elected officials.

Not a complaint about the book, just an observation about our utopian Federation.

I noticed this as well. Not to mention that a break-in in a contained facility apparently gives Starfleet the clout to put the entire civilian population of a planet into a state of emergency and start a dragnet investigation. And there's cameras accessible to the authorities everywhere in a public space and even "street-level sensors" capable of telling apart species. No judges involved, it seems.

It reminded me of a plot point in Mack's own Vanguard: Precipice: Earth citizens and their spouses are exempt from being subjected to a DNA test when leaving Vulcan because the Earth government doesn't allow this for their citizens. I took this as a cue that at least by the 22nd century, mainstream humanity has not become the post-privacy society that many of today's futurists expect to be in our future. As such this level of Big Brothering shouldn't be OK either, but maybe that's the effect of a couple of wars in short order?

 

[rafterman1701]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

Remember how in Nemesis, the Enterprise detected a positronic signature from sectors away? How come that didn't come up in this book? Oh, wait. Cuz it was dumb.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I don't really see how bringing back popular characters suddenly makes the books less mature?

Because it's only pretending to deal with death, there not actually doing it. I don't like that.

It also shrinks the universe instead of expanding it by only using the same group of characters. If they had done this with the TV series there would only be the TOS characters, there would be no TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT.

I would rather them introduce new characters instead of just milking the same ones over and over again.

And it can't be too hard to introduce new characters seeing as they've had long running series using mostly novel only character casts.

They still seem to be dealing with some pretty heavy topics, and tackling some pretty complex ideas. Not to mention that they're putting in a lot more sex & violence then we ever got on the shows.

Which becomes all meaningless if I have to worry about it all being reset at the whim of the authors.

I don't think that bringing these characters back would be considered a "reset button".

if they go from a state of death to a state of living I call that a reset.

I'll be honest, I haven't read them yet, but I have been reading the spoiler threads for a whole and I have a pretty good idea of how things went down. From everything I've heard it does sound like even though the characters are back, the storylines and character development that took place while they are gone was not erased. It seems to me that the characters' returns were not simply developments in continuing stories, and that they did not in fact erase the death, they came back. From I've heard it sounds like both characters have been changed by what the experienced. IMO as long as the deaths still happened it's not a reset button.

You mean like with Spock where they eventually started only giving a reference to his death but thats it, with for all intents and purposes it was like he never left?

 

[BillJ]

Re: TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoile

I would rather them introduce new characters instead of just milking the same ones over and over again.

Part of the problem (as I see it) is that you have to weigh moving forward vs. selling books. Is it really a Star Trek: The Next Generation book if there's nothing left from the TV series there? Same can be said for the other series except for TOS. Which has a defined box it can play in. But even though its in that box, it seems to be the best-selling of the novel lines.

I've long been a proponent that Pocket needs to not only be publishing books that carry the stories beyond their TV series roots, but they also need to still be publishing books set during the various series.