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TNG Rewatch - 7x12: "The Pegasus"

I agree the treaty is questionable and I've posted about this before but Picard's moral outrage seems strange to me in this episode.

Picard is always trying to avoid starting wars throughout the series, but he will risk it in order to prevent the enemy from gaining a clear advantage. For instance Contagion he was willing to get right up to the edge of the neutral zone in order to keep the enemy from gaining a strategic advantage. Here, he is outraged that someone risks war by trying to level the playing field.

In another example Picard risks a war & breaks a treaty by trying to take out that Cardassian weapon in Chain of Command. I understand Picard being outraged that Pressman disobeyed Starfleet but I don't get his moral outrage about Pressman's goal. Maybe Picard was just mad about the Enterprise being in danger.

Great episode, but this is one time I think I would disagree with Picard.
 
ITRW, treaties exist where e.g. superpowers have willingly given up tany attempt at defending themselves from ballistic missiles, in the hopes that this would make the fear of missile attack all the greater and thus perhaps counterintuitively an actual attack less likely. Such "convoluted logic" for giving up cloaking could easily be devised for Trek needs, too.

In the end, though, giving up invisibility tech is a bargain: you can go on being invisible regardless, as the enemy by definition can't tell!

Timo Saloniemi
 
My favourite scene by far is the one where Riker and Troi spend hours in the holodeck watching old Enterprise episodes having gained 200 lbs between them which they managed to lose just in time for the conclusion of The Pegasus.
made me spill my vimto laughing
while were at it his decision to talk to picard
at the end of holo super fun happy time
made no sense considering
in the pegasus ep forced into revealing the cloak to save the ship
 
I know everyone (okay Berman and Braga) wanted to see the Enterprise-D again but setting These Are The Voyages during The Pegasus was silly. The two episodes just don't mesh. I like to think of Enterprise as an alternate timeline created by the events of First Contact. The version of the Pegasus events we see in TATV is a slightly different version of events set in the Enterprise timeline. One where the Enterprise-D wasn't destroyed and Riker and Troi got old and fat onboard it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
Or then Mr and Mrs Troi are playacting in nested holoplays, in order to make Mr Troi more comfortable with the decision he made a decade ago - even if this involves him playing out a completely false version of the events leading to that fateful decision. Perhaps he did go and have a holo-meditation even during the actual events of "The Pegasus", one that would actually match those events rather than contradict them - but now his wife wants him to remember it differently, for therapeutic reasons... So they use the holodeck aboard the Titan to imitate the holodeck aboard the E-D imitating the NX-01.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I would be ok with Starfleet giving up mere invisibility; we're constantly being shown ways that cloaks are only really half-invisibility, as there seem to be all sorts of detection possibilities. But labeling the ability to phase through matter "cloaking"? That's a whole other thing and I don't see any good reason to restrain it as "cloaking" tech. Frankly I don't think it comes under the treaty's provisions, and if it technically does because a ship can be undetectable while phasing, then hell make the ship detectable in some way; phasing unharmed (we can reasonably assume that eventually it would be perfected) through matter is too good an ability in and of itself to give up. Use it as phasing tech, not cloaking tech.
 
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i believe what they tried to show in the various series was that a new improved cloak only get you a temporary advantage
until sensor improvements catch up.
tachyon nets
anti proton scans etc
off subject a little
did anyone notice in nemesis
geordi scans for shinzons ship
im not detecting any tachyons or anti protons???
they shouldnt anyway because that's what a scanning vessel must emit
not what a cloaked ship gives off
 
But if the cloak is good, then what happens when LaForge emits those things is that he doesn't detect any returns.

While cloaks vs. sensors may be a rat race, it doesn't seem as if sensors would be winning. In "BoT", every motion of the Romulan ship is obvious to the sensors. In TNG, the tachyon grid fails both times, in "Redemption" due to active countermeasures, in "Face of the Enemy" for undisclosed reasons. In DS9, antiproton scans fail, and involve point blank ranges anyway. (The Dominion does have a powerful sensor platform capable of interstellar-range detection of cloakships in "A Time to Stand", but that's just the Dominion; the ability goes way beyond Alpha Quadrant capabilities.)

in that sense, the phase-cloak wouldn't be vital for Starfleet merely remaining unseen. The ability to penetrate solid matter is the thing - but the threat is that Romulans would insist on the "invisible - casus belli!" thing anyway.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Then screw them. They would be wrong. Let them go to war I'd say and devil take the hindmost. Otherwise you give the Romulans a veto over ANY tech they don't like.
 
Re: The Treaty of Algeron, sure once facet of it is the Federation can't develop cloaking tech but we don't know what else was in it. It is possible the Romulans also gave up something.
 
Let them go to war I'd say

But would there be war? Romulans could bypass that tedious step and simply proceed directly to victory. It's not as if Starfleet would have any say there, not against invisible Romulan ships.

It's a bit baffling how Klingons and Romulans, both ruthless operators of invisible ships, can have something as useless as war. Why don't they simply destroy each other instead?

Timo Saloniemi
 
But would there be war? Romulans could bypass that tedious step and simply proceed directly to victory. It's not as if Starfleet would have any say there, not against invisible Romulan ships.

It's a bit baffling how Klingons and Romulans, both ruthless operators of invisible ships, can have something as useless as war. Why don't they simply destroy each other instead?

Timo Saloniemi

Clearly cloaks are not an instant-win advantage, or they would have been used as such. The Breen used a cloaked strike against Earth and only managed major damage against SF headquarters and Paris, before their fleet was destroyed. Remember, Chang and Shinzon's prototypes aside, no-one has ships that can fire while cloaked.

Any new development isn't likely to enable complete victory before the enemy could develop countermeasures either... Note that the Breen kept their energy-drainer in reserve for a key battle, rather than use it against Earth and risk tipping Starfleet off until it was too late to stop the Chin'toka victory.
 
lie the whole enigma thing
they kept it in the back pocket even sacfricing units
until they really hit the germans hard
 
in TOS BOT, the romulan is detectable because the power drain of the device is to much for the ships reactor. If the ship stays stationary, everything is fine, if it moves you see the shadow on sensors.
That's what the issue of cloaks is,incrase the size of ship to cloak, you increase the amount of emissions that need to be cloaked. and its a never ending loop.

It was a violation of the treaty when the phase cloak was being worked on. The romulans new something about it, or they would never have been following the enterprise into that region.
And as far as letting the romulans know about it via using it to escape the asteroid.
Whats worse, letting romulans capture an entire galaxy class starship and loosing one of 8 galaxy class star ships in existence at the time. Or letting them romulans crap quarters after seeing a galaxy class somehow go through the asteroid they trapped it in, and suddenly decloak in front and say hello?
 
Clearly cloaks are not an instant-win advantage, or they would have been used as such.

But apparently cloaks are an instant-win advantage in those battles where they are used. Except of course if they are used against the heroes of the story.

Nuclear-tipped ICBMs win wars in twenty minutes. They haven't been used for this yet, though. The reasons for similar failure to use cloaks to destroy worlds with total impunity might be equally complex.

The Breen used a cloaked strike against Earth and only managed major damage against SF headquarters and Paris, before their fleet was destroyed.

We don't know whether the Breen had cloaks. And why they only managed minor damage to San Francisco is a mystery of its own, as a single shot getting through should have reduced that city (and most of the West Coast) into a smoking crater.

Remember, Chang and Shinzon's prototypes aside, no-one has ships that can fire while cloaked.

But decloaking and then firing should suffice for destroying planets. It worked against the Founder hideout world in "The Die is Cast", sort of.

Any new development isn't likely to enable complete victory before the enemy could develop countermeasures either...

...Although it's difficult to see how a development that allows for Earth to be destroyed would fail to enable complete victory. After all, even superenemies think that destroying Earth solves everything.

in TOS BOT, the romulan is detectable because the power drain of the device is to much for the ships reactor. If the ship stays stationary, everything is fine, if it moves you see the shadow on sensors.

Well, the latter is true, but not necessarily for the former reason. We never heard that the cloak would consume significant amounts of power - and most episodes and movies dealing with cloaks indicate that the opposite is true, and a flashlight battery probably suffices. (Spock did speculate on such a power drain, but what would he know?)

That's what the issue of cloaks is,incrase the size of ship to cloak, you increase the amount of emissions that need to be cloaked. and its a never ending loop.

Or then bigger ships can embark powerful cloaks more easily, explaining why the gigantic Scimitar has a better cloak than any of the smaller Romulan ships Picard has previously encountered.

It was a violation of the treaty when the phase cloak was being worked on.

That probably depends on who's asking, and from whom. If Starfleet just called it the "tunneling drive" rather than "phase cloak", the wording of the treaty might not apply. OTOH, Romulans seem to be okay with the UFP using invisibility and camouflage technologies in general, such as holographic disguises - while certain specific invisibility shroud types make them very, very angry. We don't know the criteria by which they decide between the two reactions, nor do we know whether they would have evoked Treaty of Algeron in "The Pegasus" or not. And whether they eventually did or not.

Whats worse, letting romulans capture an entire galaxy class starship and loosing one of 8 galaxy class star ships in existence at the time. Or letting them romulans crap quarters after seeing a galaxy class somehow go through the asteroid they trapped it in, and suddenly decloak in front and say hello?

Good question. The latter probably served UFP political goals and Starfleet strategies much better, considering Romulans appear completely tame and cooperative afterwards. A more positive outcome is difficult to postulate. Perhaps they were on the brink of filing a UFP membership application and the incident made them reconsider?

Timo Saloniemi
 
the first time the D is in a fire fight with a romulan war bid, two plasma torpedo hits take the D's shields down 75%.
Just phasing the ship would totally change the power playing field. but making it invisible and pass through to all material.....
watched the episode "the next phase" or "the new phase" today, where geordi and ro are rendered phase cloaked after they beam over from that romulan vessel. kinda seems to me at least the romulans were working on it, especially when the romulan that is phase cloaked as well is matter of fact "my disrupter phased with me because I was wearing it".
 
Re: The Treaty of Algeron, sure once facet of it is the Federation can't develop cloaking tech but we don't know what else was in it. It is possible the Romulans also gave up something.

I just happened to rewatching this episode, and was giving the question some thought. The Federation gave up cloaking technology. But look at how everybody on the Enterprise sweats at any violation of that treaty? Yeah we can dismiss it as usual TNG era Pacifist claptrap at first... But what if it isn't? What if there really is something scary in that treaty? Something that the Romulan's negotiated away, that the Federation does not want them to have?

Then it dawned on me. We have the answer. It showed up in both TNG and DS9. Romulan ships use a Quantum Singularity for power. While powerful this is an extremely dangerous power source. Once lit they cannot be turned off. And suddenly it all made sense. What the Romulan's gave up was Anti-Matter technology. Hence why they use Miniature black holes and plasma weapons. That's something that would be big enough to cause the Federation to not only give up cloaks, but to rabidly insure that prohibition was never broken. It brings to mind the restrictions on German use of Helium prior to WW2 and the subsequent Hindenberg disaster, as they were restricted to using the more dangerous hydrogen.
 
Good episode. I liked the footage of the Enterprise-D inside the asteroid with it's floodlights on, but Dukhat is right on the Pegasus. The script even had it half-buried in rock, so really they had a lot of creative freedom there.
 
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