Really it doesn't support anything other than that writers interpretation of the episode.
TNG Rewatch: 4x23 - "The Host"
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Really it doesn't support anything other than that writers interpretation of the episode.
Only if it's done by the same writer(s). Just because a writer picks up a thread from another story doesn't mean he has correctly interpreted the first writers ideas/material/intent. Even then, a writers own ideas may change from story to follow-up story (See: George Lucas or Gene Roddenberry).
The writer of the comic interpreted the material in a certain manner. A different writer may have come up with a completely different interpretation of the events of the story they are following up on.
Nice how this can be looked at as an allegory for the franchise as a whole. They have an opportunity to do something really different, but they bow out of it because, like Crusher, the change is just too much.
Here's my problem with the scenario. What happens in the end isn't anything new for Star Trek. It's the norm. All romantic relationships will always end at the same time the episode does and the significant other will most likely never be brought up or referenced again. This sort of ending was inevitable even if Odan was in a male body. What gets me all riled up is that the same-sex issue feels like it was thrown in more as an after thought since, hey, a relationship on Star Trek will go nowhere so why not?
I totally agree. I already dislike the Klingon Augment virus thing, so recycling it to explain another visual discontinuity.....the next step would be the Section 31's participation.
The Trills are pretty sinisters in this episode. It really looks like slavery: all for the symbiont mind, absolutely no care for the mind of the host. When Picard recognizes Riker's words, it seems to cause by the rejection an not a real symbiosis. Hello, I'm Kareel and I'm ready to cease to exist. Odan didn't even say the name of his Michael Boltonish host.
Rewriting the Trill when they created Dax was really good move. (And at least, the Kriosian spots are less cliché than the ridged forehead of the week.
Yeah, I think pansexual is a more accurate designation for the Trill than bisexual.
I also agree the issue for Beverly didn't seem to be simply about sexual and physical preference. I don't think she would have dump Odan if he had been disfigured instead of changing body.
Interesting episode.
Ironic me saying that, though, as I'm not really a big fan of it - I simply find parts of it vaguely interesting, and sometimes unintentionally funny. First let's go over the big issues I have with the episode.
First on the list, Odan as played by Franc Luz. I strongly dislike the way his character comes across. His so called 'romance' with Beverly appears, in my opinion, to be creepy and weird. This has nothing to do with him changing bodies - it has to do with A. the way the character is written and B. Franc Luz. We're supposed to accept a romance at face value just because one of our main characters (Crusher) is involved? The problem is that it just comes across as cheesy. Same with whenever Riker is off hunting for tail.
But that's not the real problem here. Cheese is bad enough. Much worse is that Odan in his first body (as played by Franc Luz) is, in my opinion, really creepy. He jokes about odd things, laughs at inappropriate times, and Beverly just comes across like a smitten schoolgirl...why? What does she see in this alien man? Ok, granted, maybe that's part of the attraction, and perhaps it even explains his...odd behaviour. But there are two exchanges in particular that really sum this up for me. Unfortunately I can't find them on wiki, but to sum up:
1. Odan comes on to Beverly in her quarters (or his quarters, I've forgotten which) while dragging her towards the bed. Yeah...and while saying a rather corny line. In my view, he comes across much as Devioni Ral did in "The Price" with Troi: Smarmy, and fake. I'm not sure whether to blame the person who wrote the character or Franc Luz. Considering Odan remains weird after he takes over Riker's body, and also after he takes over that woman's body, it's probably the way character is written. Again, this can be explained away as he's an alien, so he would speak in a different way than humans do. Fair enough, and that in itself is a good thing - we need more 'alien aliens', so to speak, on the show, as opposed to pseudo-aliens who look and often act like humans with bumpy foreheads. But I never felt Odan's character was that genuine in terms of his relationship with Crusher. I did feel he was arrogant, annoying, and more than a little creepy.
2. Odan has an exchange with Picard in Picard's Ready room, in which he implies he wants Beverly to leave the ship with him, or something. Did the writers not realise how weird this scene would come across on screen? In my eyes, it plays like an overconfident stranger walking into an office and asking his new lady-friend's boss if he can marry her. Seriously. It's almost like a throwback to the TOS era where (it was implied) that if female officers/crewmembers got into serious relationships then they would get married and lose their careers. It's all very 19th century. But this is the 24th century! Just why did Odan talk in that weirdly old-fashioned way to Picard about Crusher? I mean, what?
(This might just be me, but seriously, watch the scene in which Odan talks to Picard in his Ready Room about Crusher. As far as I'm concerned it really does come across as awfully off-beat.)
On a side note, somehow I doubt most people remember these scenes. Stuff like that, weird little character interactions, stand out to me. There are loads of weird little moments like these scattered throughout TNG. You have to watch the episodes a lot of times to remember them, but they're interesting.
My other issues with this episode are that A. All the romance stuff comes across as really, really cheesy, especially with the music - Jay Chattaway is good sometimes, but he doesn't hold a candle to Ron Jones IMO...and B. I never really bought into Crusher's relationship with Odan overall. It seemed more like either a crush which ended up involving sex (most likely) or simply lust. So it never felt that genuine. The romance was syrupy and played very simplistically, which I didn't like. I'm not a big fan of romance in general (and I'm not just saying this as a stereotypically male opinion - everyone's different, I'm only speaking for myself here), and if a story like this is going to work, you have to root for at least one of the two romantic leads. To me, Crusher came across like a schoolgirl (at least in her relationship with Odan), and that's a shame as she's a character I generally like. Odan, on the other hand, just came across as really alien in his mannerisms, which might have been the point of the episode, but I certainly wasn't 'rooting' for him in any way.
Finally, the 'gay' subtext. I never had an issue with this, and that's why I also don't consider it an issue that Crusher simply wasn't comfortable continuing a relationship with Odan at the end of the episode. The problem is that there's no real life comparison to a situation like this as the entire story is total sci-fi. Let's be brutally clear, what kind of person in real life is going to end up with a lover who is actually an strange slimy alien creature who swaps bodies? No one, since it's fiction. So the whole "if your lover was a man and he became a woman" (or the opposite) angle doesn't really count for anything in real life. Ok, you have people who are transsexual, but again, the situation itself (your lover changing their body and/or gender) still isn't one most people will ever have to face. So if you ask yourself the question: "What would I do if my boyfriend/girlfriend swapped bodies with someone else and was then the opposite gender?", how can you possibly answer?
You can, but only hypothetically. And speaking on that level, I think the answer is very simple: Crusher is straight, and couldn't continue (and wouldn't want to continue) a physical romantic relationship with someone who wasn't in a male body. Nothing wrong with that. Just like a gay person wouldn't be able to, nor want to have a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. The episode tries to be all clever with the 'is it really just skin deep?" stuff, but in actuality it's very simple: Fair or not, all beings, human, animal and otherwise, do place appearance and characteristics high on the list of importance when choosing a partner. Everything appeals to different individuals. That's not sad, it's not shallow and it's not wrong. Appearance and characteristics aren't necessarily any less important than personality.
Anyway, that's my (admittedly very long!) two cents.
Interesting episode in places, but for it to really have worked for me, Odan would've needed to be a hell of a lot more likeable.
Ironic me saying that, though, as I'm not really a big fan of it - I simply find parts of it vaguely interesting, and sometimes unintentionally funny. First let's go over the big issues I have with the episode.
First on the list, Odan as played by Franc Luz. I strongly dislike the way his character comes across. His so called 'romance' with Beverly appears, in my opinion, to be creepy and weird. This has nothing to do with him changing bodies - it has to do with A. the way the character is written and B. Franc Luz. We're supposed to accept a romance at face value just because one of our main characters (Crusher) is involved? The problem is that it just comes across as cheesy. Same with whenever Riker is off hunting for tail.
But that's not the real problem here. Cheese is bad enough. Much worse is that Odan in his first body (as played by Franc Luz) is, in my opinion, really creepy. He jokes about odd things, laughs at inappropriate times, and Beverly just comes across like a smitten schoolgirl...why? What does she see in this alien man? Ok, granted, maybe that's part of the attraction, and perhaps it even explains his...odd behaviour. But there are two exchanges in particular that really sum this up for me. Unfortunately I can't find them on wiki, but to sum up:
1. Odan comes on to Beverly in her quarters (or his quarters, I've forgotten which) while dragging her towards the bed. Yeah...and while saying a rather corny line. In my view, he comes across much as Devioni Ral did in "The Price" with Troi: Smarmy, and fake. I'm not sure whether to blame the person who wrote the character or Franc Luz. Considering Odan remains weird after he takes over Riker's body, and also after he takes over that woman's body, it's probably the way character is written. Again, this can be explained away as he's an alien, so he would speak in a different way than humans do. Fair enough, and that in itself is a good thing - we need more 'alien aliens', so to speak, on the show, as opposed to pseudo-aliens who look and often act like humans with bumpy foreheads. But I never felt Odan's character was that genuine in terms of his relationship with Crusher. I did feel he was arrogant, annoying, and more than a little creepy.
2. Odan has an exchange with Picard in Picard's Ready room, in which he implies he wants Beverly to leave the ship with him, or something. Did the writers not realise how weird this scene would come across on screen? In my eyes, it plays like an overconfident stranger walking into an office and asking his new lady-friend's boss if he can marry her. Seriously. It's almost like a throwback to the TOS era where (it was implied) that if female officers/crewmembers got into serious relationships then they would get married and lose their careers. It's all very 19th century. But this is the 24th century! Just why did Odan talk in that weirdly old-fashioned way to Picard about Crusher? I mean, what?
(This might just be me, but seriously, watch the scene in which Odan talks to Picard in his Ready Room about Crusher. As far as I'm concerned it really does come across as awfully off-beat.) On a side note, somehow I doubt most people remember these scenes. Stuff like that, weird little character interactions, stand out to me. There are loads of weird little moments like these scattered throughout TNG. You have to watch the episodes a lot of times to remember them, but they're interesting.
My other issues with this episode are that A. All the romance stuff comes across as really, really cheesy, especially with the music - Jay Chattaway is good sometimes, but he doesn't hold a candle to Ron Jones IMO...and B. I never really bought into Crusher's relationship with Odan overall. It seemed more like either a crush which ended up involving sex (most likely) or simply lust. So it never felt that genuine. The romance was syrupy and played very simplistically, which I didn't like. I'm not a big fan of romance in general (and I'm not just saying this as a stereotypically male opinion - everyone's different, I'm only speaking for myself here), and if a story like this is going to work, you have to root for at least one of the two romantic leads. To me, Crusher came across like a schoolgirl (at least in her relationship with Odan), and that's a shame as she's a character I generally like. Odan, on the other hand, just came across as really alien in his mannerisms, which might have been the point of the episode, but I certainly wasn't 'rooting' for him in any way.
Finally, the 'gay' subtext. I never had an issue with this, and that's why I also don't consider it an issue that Crusher simply wasn't comfortable continuing a relationship with Odan at the end of the episode. The problem is that there's no real life comparison to a situation like this as the entire story is total sci-fi. Let's be brutally clear, what kind of person in real life is going to end up with a lover who is actually an strange slimy alien creature who swaps bodies? No one, since it's fiction. So the whole "if your lover was a man and he became a woman" (or the opposite) angle doesn't really count for anything in real life. Ok, you have people who are transsexual, but again, the situation itself (your lover changing their body and/or gender) still isn't one most people will ever have to face. So if you ask yourself the question: "What would I do if my boyfriend/girlfriend swapped bodies with someone else and was then the opposite gender?", how can you possibly answer?
You can, but only hypothetically. And speaking on that level, I think the answer is very simple: Crusher is straight, and couldn't continue (and wouldn't want to continue) a physical romantic relationship with someone who wasn't in a male body. Nothing wrong with that. Just like a gay person wouldn't be able to, nor want to have a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. The episode tries to be all clever with the 'is it really just skin deep?" stuff, but in actuality it's very simple: Fair or not, all beings, human, animal and otherwise, do place appearance and characteristics high on the list of importance when choosing a partner. Everything appeals to different individuals. That's not sad, it's not shallow and it's not wrong. Appearance and characteristics aren't necessarily any less important than personality.
Anyway, that's my (admittedly very long!) two cents.
Interesting episode in places, but for it to really have worked for me, Odan would've needed to be a hell of a lot more likeable.
^I think you're on the right track, good post.
I just wonder, if these "trills" personality is only based on the slug part, what are the humanoids for? Does it kill them? Riker didn't die, but it was temporary. Do they enter a coma like state with the slug taking over? Would Riker remember any of this? It's just too creepy.
If the humanoid part adds to the personality, then part of the personality that was Odan died and Bev would be dealing with a different person. I don't see how she could have continued with that kind of situation. If it didn't add it's personality, then it was like wearing a humanoid suit and could just throw them away as needed. I can see why that would put someone off. That's a plot for a horror movie right there. Like a brain slug or a mad scientist swapping brains, I don't think Beverly, or any human, should have to put up with that.
I just wonder, if these "trills" personality is only based on the slug part, what are the humanoids for? Does it kill them? Riker didn't die, but it was temporary. Do they enter a coma like state with the slug taking over? Would Riker remember any of this? It's just too creepy.
If the humanoid part adds to the personality, then part of the personality that was Odan died and Bev would be dealing with a different person. I don't see how she could have continued with that kind of situation. If it didn't add it's personality, then it was like wearing a humanoid suit and could just throw them away as needed. I can see why that would put someone off. That's a plot for a horror movie right there. Like a brain slug or a mad scientist swapping brains, I don't think Beverly, or any human, should have to put up with that.
Odan doesn't sound like the symbiont was a part of him, but totally him. In DS9, each merging is a different incarnation. Each Dax incarnation had a different job, it's not "Yeah, I'm Odan the diplomat, the body's dying, so I need the sacrifice of another young adult to pursue my career."
Thanks.
Exactly, and that's kind of what I was trying to say in my post as well - Odan might be well intentioned but he comes across as creepy.
Well said. I never thought of it that way before actually, but that makes it even creepier.
Again, though, as we all know, the trills were (massively) re-written for DS9, and considering the moral implications you raised above, the change was almost definitely for the better.
On a side note: Does anyone know where I can find either A. A more complete set of quotes for each Star Trek episode, or B. the actual scripts for each episode? Because I'd love to quote the various things Odan says throughout the episode, and a lot of them aren't available on the various wikis from what I can see. Can anyone please help with this?
chakoteya.net
Thanks, Armored Saint! That's a really cool website!
Anyways, here are the two exchanges I was talking about:
So, yeah...isn't it a bit creepy for someone who is obviously very capable and experienced to say something which comes across as desperate? Doesn't even really gel with his personality. Why was he so needy about their new relationship? "Promise me we'll be together tonight"...what kind of a person would say that, especially a powerful, outwardly confident, well-educated and influential one who's also alien?
Finally, here's the other exchange. The gist of this scene is, Odan has just been talking to Picard about his skills as an ambassador and how he deals with talking to people and mediating. Then he says the following:
And more to the point, why would Odan ask Picard a question like that? It makes him come across as really weird, again smacking of desperation like he's obsessed with Crusher to the point he'll start asking weird and inappropriate questions of her fellow (and commanding) officers...and this is an ambassador asking those questions.
Is this all just me reading something into Odan's character which isn't there, or does anyone here think I have a valid point? The point being, if Odan is meant to be an honourable character, why bother putting in a line of dialogue (or two) that makes him come across as...well, weird and creepy? Is it because he's a trill? Any thoughts?
That's a really cool website!Anyways, here are the two exchanges I was talking about:
Ok. This is all fairly standard, cheesy romance dialogue, no problem, not really creepy or anything at all. With one exception: what kind of man, alien or otherwise, would say to his brand new girlfriend - one we know from dialogue in the episode that he only met a couple of weeks ago - the following line: "Promise me we'll be together tonight"? This is odd, because it makes him sound like a desperate, needy teenager. It doesn't sound like the typical kind of thing a man would say to his girlfriend at all...unless he has serious issues, that is. Why is Odan so insecure?
So, yeah...isn't it a bit creepy for someone who is obviously very capable and experienced to say something which comes across as desperate? Doesn't even really gel with his personality. Why was he so needy about their new relationship? "Promise me we'll be together tonight"...what kind of a person would say that, especially a powerful, outwardly confident, well-educated and influential one who's also alien?
Finally, here's the other exchange. The gist of this scene is, Odan has just been talking to Picard about his skills as an ambassador and how he deals with talking to people and mediating. Then he says the following:
Now, Odan's last two lines are exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post, where I said they came across as if he was asking Picard's permission to marry Crusher/take her away, or something like that. Just why is Odan this needy and desperate, to the point that he actually goes and asks Picard how 'committed Crusher is to remaining with Starfleet'? That's why it sounds sexist, and backward to me (just my opinion). Why would being in a relationship with Odan mean that Crusher would have to leave Starfleet?
And more to the point, why would Odan ask Picard a question like that? It makes him come across as really weird, again smacking of desperation like he's obsessed with Crusher to the point he'll start asking weird and inappropriate questions of her fellow (and commanding) officers...and this is an ambassador asking those questions.
Is this all just me reading something into Odan's character which isn't there, or does anyone here think I have a valid point? The point being, if Odan is meant to be an honourable character, why bother putting in a line of dialogue (or two) that makes him come across as...well, weird and creepy? Is it because he's a trill? Any thoughts?
The exchange between Odan and Picard is a bit awkward, but not purely sexist. Picard and Darren also spoke of the idea of one them resigning from Starfleet. We see sometimes this issue about conciliate a Starfleet career and a potential married life in TNG. It's simple for O'Brien because Keiko's able to follow him on other ship/base/station and having her own career. Geordi's parents were both Starfleet officer and weren't always on the same ship.
In case of Beverly and Odan, a simple explanation would be it's relatively simple for a civilian doctor to follow a diplomat travelling everywhere. Odan precisely talked about her attachment to Starfleet, not to her job as doctor. However, I agree it was indeed ambiguous.
In case of Beverly and Odan, a simple explanation would be it's relatively simple for a civilian doctor to follow a diplomat travelling everywhere. Odan precisely talked about her attachment to Starfleet, not to her job as doctor. However, I agree it was indeed ambiguous.
