TNG films just lacking

[CobraCommander]

Hi, After viewing all four of the TNG flms, I felt that they either felt like good two part TV epsidoes or just simply had lame stories. They also had weak battle scenes (especially Nemisis). I'll start out with First Contact. To me, the best part was when Lily told Picard off in his Ready Room. She basically summed up that the real Picard was nothing more than a self rightous and selfish cold blooded murderer. I felt that she was right since it was sad that is what FC portrayed Picard as. When the Borg invaeded the Enterprise, he should have told just about everyone to abandon ship. The Borg wouldn't have been able to assimilate more of his crew and increase their numbers. He became self obsessed about the Borg like Captain Ahab was about his whale. The other sad truth was that in ST II, Khan had an Ahab mentality and that led to the destruction of his ship and crew.

Two other things that bothered me was that Picard had a connection to the Borg. If he had all of his implants removed, how would he be able to feel them? Couldn't he have been reprogrammed to serve the Borg once more? The other thing was why the Borg only sent one cube? If they sent a fleet of cubes, they would easily have overrun the Alpha quadrant. Even the temporal sphere and its inability to destroy the Phoenix was pretty contrived and weak.

 

[Ghel]

I've always felt that the TOS/TNG film comparisons are just unfair. Even The Motion Picture (and especially the later TOS films) had the distinct advantage of being produced more than a decade after the original series ended. This allowed for those films to be visually much different from the original series.
In comparison, the TNG films were being produced right on the tail of the series with no break. Given the timing and the quality of the later seasons of TNG, it is no surprise that the films don't look/feel significantly different than the show.

In terms of Picard's connection with the Borg, I've always assumed that not ALL of the implants were removed. I believe Crusher even has some dialogue about this at the end of BOBW (though I'm going from memory and could be wrong.)

I agree that Picard was acting out of vengence for a portion of First Contact. . . but I believe that was the point. Unlike Khan, Picard (with Lily's help) recognized that he was acting out of vengence and changed his behavior before it was too late. Incidentally, in terms of Greek theater, this would make the film a Comedy rather than a Tragedy---our hero recognized his hubris BEFORE it destroys him.

 

[CobraCommander]

When watching the TNG films, the visuals didn't bother me. The CGI and the ship design was up to date. What bothered me were the stories themselves ,the acting direction, and what they failed to use the CGI for. They were treated as tv reunion films where the characters are simply present for the viewer to be overjoyed to see their favorite characters back on screen. In Generations, the beginning scenes showed the Ent-B and its Starfleet crew trying to survive the Nexus and escape. Captain Kirk saved the ship himself and was sacrificed (or so they thought). In retrospect, the crew of the Ent-D was playing out a holodeck fantasy, humiliating Worf, and berating Data for doing the same thing to Dr. Crusher. Picard loses his ship to an obsolete bird of prey (so much for superior firepower). The scene with the Klignons waiting for their impending doom begs the question of why they couldn't take evasive actions (emergency warp)? At least with Gen. Chang, he didn't realize until it was too late that the torpedo was locked onto his ship.

In retrospect, I believe that the writing was ill conceived and that the directing was sub-par for these last four films. If these two elements were honed and executed properly, there would probably more films and series out by now.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

The other thing was why the Borg only sent one cube? If they sent a fleet of cubes, they would easily have overrun the Alpha quadrant.

I believe the whole idea of Borg sending more than one cube was not even invented until Voyager came along. During TNG's run, the Borg always used only one cube at a time, because one cube was generally enough to wipe out whole solar systems. They would have wiped out the fleet in First Contact if Picard had not known their weakness.

 

[Workbee]

^Not quite true. In the observation room scene at the beginning of FC, Riker asks how many. Here is the scene:

"Captain's log, stardate....*SNIP*... and this time there may be no stopping them."

R: "How many?"
P: "One, and they're on a direct course for earth?"

Why would Riker ask this if he didn't conceive that more than one could be sent? I find it strange that this line was written into the screenplay -- it only draws attention to the fact that there aren't more borg ships, that, again, there is only one ship, just like in BOBW. I am sure the rational for this line was so the audience would know that the battle was "over" once the cube we saw was destroyed. However, I'm not sure what was to be gained by stating this. You generally don't want to start an action movie telling the audiance what they might have had, but aren't going to get.

-WB

 

[CobraCommander]

If I recall correctly, the Borg did use multiple cubes in the Delta Quadrant during assimilation trips. These trips were during and a few years before First Contact would have occured. In some Flashback scenes on Voyager, the Borg do use multi cube attacks (I don't remember when although). It is hard to believe that the Borg would only use single vessel assaults throughout their history.

I felt that FC jumped into the Earth battle too quickly. They should have showed the major Alpha quadrant power fleets getting wiped out and the prolonged war of assimilation and destruction. The remnants of the Feds, Klignons, and Romulans could have joined forces to send the Enterprise back in time to wipe out the Borg before they invaded. This would have been more plausible than what the Ent crew did in the 21st Century.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

It would've been cool, but probably too much for the budget.

 

[Candlelight]

I felt that FC jumped into the Earth battle too quickly. They should have showed the major Alpha quadrant power fleets getting wiped out and the prolonged war of assimilation and destruction. The remnants of the Feds, Klignons, and Romulans could have joined forces to send the Enterprise back in time to wipe out the Borg before they invaded. This would have been more plausible than what the Ent crew did in the 21st Century.

Jonathan Frakes said in an interview that their budgetary restrictions meant the space battle sequence was cut to a third of what they originally planned it to be.

Maybe if Stewart and Spiner cut their pay checks slightly we might've got a big battle.

 

[QuasarVM]

I agree -- the TNG films ARE (in my opinion) lacking.

Generations should never have been made and the film series should have started off with Final Contact in retrospect. The rest of them, like Generations, should never have been made...

 

[QuasarVM]

If I recall correctly, the Borg did use multiple cubes in the Delta Quadrant during assimilation trips. These trips were during and a few years before First Contact would have occured. In some Flashback scenes on Voyager, the Borg do use multi cube attacks (I don't remember when although). It is hard to believe that the Borg would only use single vessel assaults throughout their history.

I felt that FC jumped into the Earth battle too quickly. They should have showed the major Alpha quadrant power fleets getting wiped out and the prolonged war of assimilation and destruction. The remnants of the Feds, Klignons, and Romulans could have joined forces to send the Enterprise back in time to wipe out the Borg before they invaded. This would have been more plausible than what the Ent crew did in the 21st Century.

That battle with the Borg would have been much more epic had they had more than one cube. I'd have written it so that when the Enterprise arrives there is at least three of them approaching Earth. You could have other ships destroy two of them during the battle and the cube with the Queen is the last one left. I would have had the Defiant fighting a different cube.

Well, it would've been cool.

I always thought the Borg would attack in swarms as Guinan says in the Q-Who? and as we saw later in Voyager.

I always had my theory that the only reason there was one cube in BOBW is that it was the ship from Q-Who? which had continued onward to assimilate Picard.

I like the idea that they might have assimilated him to become Locutus at the end of Q-Who? had Q not snapped them back to Federation space.

I think that idea makes it scarier.

 

[blockaderunner]

They were lacking because they weren't MOVIES. MOVIES are a different animal entirely. They have a certain style and swagger. Star Wars was a MOVIE. The Godfather was a MOVIE. Had the TNG films been helmed by a Spielberg or someone who knew the language of MOVIES, they would have been much better.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Sadly, the one time we had an actual MOVIE director (Bob Wise), we got a poorly paced tribute to 2001 that was largely lacking in style and swagger.

 

[QuasarVM]

ST:TMP -- Lacking in style?

I disagree.

And I think the pacing of the Director's Cut is just fine. ST:TMP is one of my favorite movies...period.

As far as "Style", it set the visual standard for all Treks to follow.

I'd say that's pretty "stylish".

 

[trevanian]

Set the visual style? Don't you mean, 'had the leftover sets the others were forced to use' even though almost all of the other features looked more like STAR TREK.

Lack of style IS a form of style, but when you're doing that with TREK, you're subtracting from what made it TREK in the first place. Parts of TMP almost look like it was shot on video, it is so visually uninteresting in the live-action.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

If I recall correctly, the Borg did use multiple cubes in the Delta Quadrant during assimilation trips. These trips were during and a few years before First Contact would have occured. In some Flashback scenes on Voyager, the Borg do use multi cube attacks (I don't remember when although). It is hard to believe that the Borg would only use single vessel assaults throughout their history.

Those episodes were writeen after FC was written, so they do not contradict my point. Workbee might have a slight point, though. I don't remember that line, but it might indicate that even when FC was written, the writers thought it was possible for multiple cubes to attack. However, it had never been presented before.

 

[Candlelight]

If I recall correctly, the Borg did use multiple cubes in the Delta Quadrant during assimilation trips. These trips were during and a few years before First Contact would have occured. In some Flashback scenes on Voyager, the Borg do use multi cube attacks (I don't remember when although). It is hard to believe that the Borg would only use single vessel assaults throughout their history.

Those episodes were writeen after FC was written, so they do not contradict my point. Workbee might have a slight point, though. I don't remember that line, but it might indicate that even when FC was written, the writers thought it was possible for multiple cubes to attack. However, it had never been presented before.

The early draft of FC includes a line saying "47 cubes destroyed so far...".

 

[CobraCommander]

ST:TMP -- Lacking in style?

I disagree.

And I think the pacing of the Director's Cut is just fine. ST:TMP is one of my favorite movies...period.

As far as "Style", it set the visual standard for all Treks to follow.

I'd say that's pretty "stylish".

In regards to ST I, it is personally my least favorite of the first six films. I don't believe it is bad. The F/X were spectacular in terms of construction the Star Trek Universe that we became accustomed to in the later films. What bothered me about that film was how it is anti-climactic in the end. The Enterprise spends a movie eternity building up the entry into V'ger and at the end, the Enterprise simply appears over Earth and V'ger is gone.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Set the visual style? Don't you mean, 'had the leftover sets the others were forced to use' even though almost all of the other features looked more like STAR TREK.

Nonsense. The Cage was just as much Star Trek as any of the later episodes and its color scheme is virtually identical to that of ST:TMP.

Lack of style IS a form of style, but when you're doing that with TREK, you're subtracting from what made it TREK in the first place. Parts of TMP almost look like it was shot on video, it is so visually uninteresting in the live-action.

I'm going to wait for the Blu-ray Disc release to make a final determination on ST:TMP's cinematography, but Richard Kline's decision to have all of the sets built "solid" as opposed to "wild" in order to force him to shoot within their physical confines definitely helped in generating a heightened sense of immersive verisimilitude. The intermix chamber effects and the blue-lit corridors outside engineering were also nice touches.

TGT

 

[Chimpy Chompy]

I felt that FC jumped into the Earth battle too quickly.

Yeah. While FC is a good action movie, the whole first act feels rushed.

Uh oh, borg coming
BAMN they're already here
battle! ships asplode borg asplode
going back in time!
we must protect First Contact

all in the space of, what, 20 minutes? Even if money for Ships Asplode was limited, I think they could have introduced the plot more effectively and built some tension.

 

[QuasarVM]

Set the visual style? Don't you mean, 'had the leftover sets the others were forced to use' even though almost all of the other features looked more like STAR TREK.

Lack of style IS a form of style, but when you're doing that with TREK, you're subtracting from what made it TREK in the first place. Parts of TMP almost look like it was shot on video, it is so visually uninteresting in the live-action.

Meh...I like it.