TNG changes to TOS

[Christopher]

If you ran into a common joe on the Street and asked him if he thought people today were better than people were 400 years ago, naturally he'd say yes. That's just how people are. It makes sense for the TNG people to think they were better than their predecessors. Annoying yes, but realistic.

Actually, if anything, the tendency is more often the reverse. For thousands of years, as evidenced by ancient mythologies, people have believed that the past was a golden age from which humanity has degenerated. Every aging generation looks on "these kids today" and complains about how they've lost sight of society's values, or how their music and entertainment are mindless, talentless drivel compared to the superior stuff of the past. And countless people believe that the world is getting more dangerous, more violent, more morally degenerate, and are nostalgic for the more peaceful, simpler times of the past.

Of course, the truth is actually pretty much the opposite. Today people are healthier and safer from disease (at least in the developed world), there's more freedom and opportunity and better standards of living, and the average person's odds of being a victim of violence are much lower today than they were in the past. Humanity actually is getting better on the whole, albeit with some backsliding here and there.

 

[BillJ]

We didn't see Andorians until ENT either because the makeup tech at the time didn't look good enough.

An Andorian was one of the races Lal was mulling over in "The Offspring". We actually see a greenish-blue one on the holodeck.

DATA: Computer, Lal gender sequence finalists. Begin. An Andorian female.
TROI: Interesting. You'll be the only one on board the Enterprise, Lal.

 

[BillJ]

The reason we didn't see the Gorn or Tholians until ENT was because of royalties issues. They'd have to pay the families of the writers of "Arena" and "Tholian Web" to use them again. They'd resolved that by ENT.

We didn't see Andorians until ENT either because the makeup tech at the time didn't look good enough.

This doesn't compute. The whole reason we got T'pol instead of T'pau was because they didn't want the pay Theodore Sturgeon's estate. It also seems that the same issue would exist with the Andorians as with the Gorn and Tholians.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The reason we didn't see the Gorn or Tholians until ENT was because of royalties issues. They'd have to pay the families of the writers of "Arena" and "Tholian Web" to use them again. They'd resolved that by ENT.

We didn't see Andorians until ENT either because the makeup tech at the time didn't look good enough.

This doesn't compute. The whole reason we got T'pol instead of T'pau was because they didn't want the pay Theodore Sturgeon's estate. It also seems that the same issue would exist with the Andorians as with the Gorn and Tholians.

The Andorians were created by DC Fontana, who was on staff. The Gorn were created by Gene Coon, who was a TOS producer. So I don't think the same rules apply.

 

[Warped9]

- Not getting to see some of the TOS aliens to some decent extent, particularly Andorian and Gorn.

We didn't see Andorians until ENT either because the makeup tech at the time didn't look good enough.

That's a bogus argument. There was an Andorian seen in TNG's episode "Offspring." And if it could be done back in the '60s on TOS then it could easily have been done on TNG. They also had Andorians in TVH which was only one year before TNG aired.

 

[BillJ]

The reason we didn't see the Gorn or Tholians until ENT was because of royalties issues. They'd have to pay the families of the writers of "Arena" and "Tholian Web" to use them again. They'd resolved that by ENT.

We didn't see Andorians until ENT either because the makeup tech at the time didn't look good enough.

This doesn't compute. The whole reason we got T'pol instead of T'pau was because they didn't want the pay Theodore Sturgeon's estate. It also seems that the same issue would exist with the Andorians as with the Gorn and Tholians.

The Andorians were created by DC Fontana, who was on staff. The Gorn were created by Gene Coon, who was a TOS producer. So I don't think the same rules apply.

I don't know? But I know that Gorn and Tholians both got name dropped in Deep Space Nine.

 

[Anwar]

That's a bogus argument. There was an Andorian seen in TNG's episode "Offspring." And if it could be done back in the '60s on TOS then it could easily have been done on TNG. They also had Andorians in TVH which was only one year before TNG aired.

The Andorian we saw in TNG didn't look that good, and was immobile. It was just a static image basically. And we barely saw the Andorian in TVH aside from one brief moment. We don't know if the actor would've been able to emote or act through it without the antennae falling off.

The makeup used in TOS wouldn't have flown on 80s/90s Trek and frankly didn't look that good now that I look at it after a few years, but by Ent they had gotten it good enough so the Antennae were moving and actors could act through it all.

 

[Warped9]

That's a bogus argument. There was an Andorian seen in TNG's episode "Offspring." And if it could be done back in the '60s on TOS then it could easily have been done on TNG. They also had Andorians in TVH which was only one year before TNG aired.

The Andorian we saw in TNG didn't look that good, and was immobile. It was just a static image basically. And we barely saw the Andorian in TVH aside from one brief moment. We don't know if the actor would've been able to emote or act through it without the antennae falling off.

The makeup used in TOS wouldn't have flown on 80s/90s Trek and frankly didn't look that good now that I look at it after a few years, but by Ent they had gotten it good enough so the Antennae were moving and actors could act through it all.

Still a bogus argument. If they were willing to do something like the Antica and Selay in TNG's first season they could easily have done an Andotian. And nowhere was it written the antennae had to move.

 

[BillJ]

That's a bogus argument. There was an Andorian seen in TNG's episode "Offspring." And if it could be done back in the '60s on TOS then it could easily have been done on TNG. They also had Andorians in TVH which was only one year before TNG aired.

The Andorian we saw in TNG didn't look that good, and was immobile. It was just a static image basically. And we barely saw the Andorian in TVH aside from one brief moment. We don't know if the actor would've been able to emote or act through it without the antennae falling off.

The makeup used in TOS wouldn't have flown on 80s/90s Trek and frankly didn't look that good now that I look at it after a few years, but by Ent they had gotten it good enough so the Antennae were moving and actors could act through it all.

Still a bogus argument. If they were willing to do something like the Antica and Selay in TNG's first season they could easily have done an Andotian. And nowhere was it written the antennae had to move.

The actors in "Journey to Babel" didn't seem to have any trouble acting with the antennae on. As far as make-up goes, I don't think the blue they used in Enterprise was any better than the blue they used in 1967/68. It still looked splotchy from time to time.

 

[Anwar]

Still a bogus argument. If they were willing to do something like the Antica and Selay in TNG's first season they could easily have done an Andotian. And nowhere was it written the antennae had to move.

The antennae would've looked strange if they couldn't move (like real antennae do), they'd just be strange looking horns then.

As for the Anticans and Selay...well, they never showed up again. Probably because they did realize how hard it was to get good acting out of makeup jobs like that. They were an experiment that ultimately ended in failure.

And the TOS Andorian, he was basically just a guy painted blue with a bad wig and unconvincing antennae. I thought he looked bizarre for a 60s show, and he'd have looked bizarre on an 80s/90s show too.

 

[Warped9]

^^ You're only making a case that it wouldn't work for you and not that it couldn't have been done.

 

[BillJ]

The first time I saw the antennae on Enterprise, I thought "cool". But then I never gave them a second thought after that. Their movement made the Andorians no more or less believable.

Good actors make the characters believable. Jeff Combs would've been great as Shran whether the antennae moved or not.

 

[suarezguy]

One thing I didn't like was that (although the movies kind of started it) was that the ships were so fast that it would take little time to get from the frontier back to Earth ("Conspiracy" and "The Best of Both Worlds," great as the latter was), to me that reduces the believability and drama. Better that the frontier really feel like a long distance away.

 

[Warped9]

One thing I didn't like was that (although the movies kind of started it) was that the ships were so fast that it would take little time to get from the frontier back to Earth ("Conspiracy" and "The Best of Both Worlds," great as the latter was), to me that reduces the believability and drama. Better that the frontier really feel like a long distance away.

Well in fairness TOS did kind of start that in "By Any Other Name" when they reached the edge of the galaxy quickly. Of course in the episode it wasn't said how far out the Enterprise was so maybe the edge wasn't all that far away to begin with. It was also done in TAS' "The Magicks Of Megas-Tu" when they went to the centre of the galaxy.

 

[Anwar]

TOS also said they could make 8000 Light Years in only a few days, IIRC.

And they had them go to the Galactic Barrier in the pilot episode.

 

[Warped9]

TOS also said they could make 8000 Light Years in only a few days, IIRC.

And they had them go to the Galactic Barrier in the pilot episode.

But in the pilot we again had no idea how far out they were to begin with.

I had a bigger beef with the Enterprise being used to pick up a collection of diplomatic passengers in "Jounrney To Babel." Then again except for stopping off at Vulcan we don't really know from where everyone else was picked up. They could all have been transferred over from another ship or ships or station for all we know.

 

[Anwar]

But in the pilot we again had no idea how far out they were to begin with.

It couldn't have been too far, since they were close to normal space only a few episodes later.

 

[Warped9]

Distances in space are something most SF on television and film play fast and loose with and with little consistency. But anecdotally the TOS E came across as a lot faster than the E-D.

 

[BillJ]

Distances in space are something most SF on television and film play fast and loose with and with little consistency. But anecdotally the TOS E came across as a lot faster than the E-D.

Yep. She could cover a thousand light-years in twelve hours per "That Which Survives".

 

[Christopher]

But in the pilot we again had no idea how far out they were to begin with.

It couldn't have been too far, since they were close to normal space only a few episodes later.

Except that clearly a large amount of time passed between the second pilot and the series proper, since there were changes to the ship, the crew, the uniforms, the props, etc. Not to mention that the episode made it quite clear that the ship was badly damaged and would have to limp home. Presumably it underwent a refit once it got home, then set out with a largely new crew.