tng birthright part 2

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by pontypool, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. pontypool

    pontypool Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Nov 1, 2013
    In this episode, Worf withholds information about the kitimer survivors when questioned by Picard.
    Picard said "i understand" and based on his body language I am unsure if he really did understand the truth of what Worf said, or just took his lie at face value.
    I am curious to know what other peoples views are in this.

    Furthermore, does anyone else see Worf as being insubordinate?
    aswell as this episode where he has lied to a superior officer, Don't forget that one episode where Worf refused to return to the enterprise and instead went off to help the new klingon emperor Goron, on board his ship, there is also another episode where Worf leaves the enterprise and gets revenge for duros killing Worfs mate. (Btw was they actually married i thought they just considered it)
    Obviously Picard was not pleased and stated that if he was a federation officer, he must act like it, even if he did follow klingon law.. I beleive Picard also made a reprimand on klingons record for this.

    So what do you think? as Picard stated, he allows for cultural diversity, but all federation officers have to put the federation first, basically, as that is their main position. I am surprised he got away with so many things. resigning the federation to fight in a klingon civil war could be seen as federation involvement, that alone should have got him expelled from the federation.
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

    Nov 22, 2012
    Melakon's grave
    First, I think this should be in the TNG Forum instead of General Discussion.

    Worf resigning his commission legally removes the problem of Federation involvement in a Klingon internal matter. That's why he resigned. It's no different from someone in the Union Army formally resigning to fight for their home state of Virginia during the American Civil War.

    I've not seen "Birthright" in years, and it was never one of my favorites, so I'm hazy on specific details.
  3. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Caped Trek Mod Admiral

    Feb 11, 2002
    Transporter buffer
    Moving to TNG...
  4. pontypool

    pontypool Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Nov 1, 2013
    Yes, but even so.. In such a delicate matter as a klingon civil war, if federation officers are seen 'temporarily' transfering to a particular klingdon side, it could easily have political implications. Besides, if you're in the army, you cannot just resign whenever you wish, don't you have to complete set terms? and if worf is going to resign whenever something which he considers higher priority takes place, I should think he isn't suited to being in starfleet.
    What is the guy gonna do if there's a war between starfleet and the klingon empire? as far as some admirals are concerned his loyalties could be in question.
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 15, 2012
    Worf did the right thing. His Klingon morals and loyalty to his House and people conflicted with his duties as a Starfleet officer and thus he resigned. They accepted him back later, likely because he was an effective officer not to mention all the resources they expended in training him. As for the political troubles of Federation officers playing mercenary for the Klingons, I think that would be small change compared to Picard taking a fleet into Klingon space to blockade the Romulan border.

    As for Worf's actions in Birthright, saying Worf was being insubordinate is a stretch to say the least. I took Picard saying, "I understand" to be his acknowledgement there was more going on, and that it needed to be kept quiet. Certainly Worf was on leave at the time and wasn't acting as a member of Starfleet in any capacity during his foray to find his father and the other survivors. So even if you take that "lie" to mean he was being insubordinate, Picard has no jurisdiction or involvement in the situation anyways.
  6. PhoenixClass

    PhoenixClass Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Aug 16, 2013
    I also took Picard's response to be a recognition that he should not press Worf for details. As in "I understand what you have NOT said and I will let it go at that."

    Also, I don't think the US Civil War analogy is appropriate. Worf did not resign and then fight against the Federation, which is what is happening in that analogy.
  7. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

    Aug 18, 2007
    ^This. There's no way Picard could have known the whole truth, but he clearly knew things were more involved than Worf let on, given he showed up with survivor's children. So, yeah... he's not being truthful, but he's been withholding about cultural aspects before. The truth is, he's just never believed his crewmates could ever fully understand him, which I've always thought was bollocks. If you trust people with your life, then ultimately, your life is an open book.

    As to the other separate issues in Worf's career, he's certainly been the one officer there who's motivations were askew.

    However, I see no issue with him resigning to join his homeworld civil war. It's very unlikely that it could be construed by anyone that the Federation is forcing influence by sending in ex-Starfleet to interfere, because Worf is one person, the only one joining the fight, & he's a Klingon, the only one in Starfleet. Under these extenuating circumstances, it's clear to everyone what's going on.

    Plus, any other captain might have enforced a permanency to the resignation. It was Picard's personal decision, given Worf's conduct, that he'd be willing to welcome him back to active duty. It's actually Picard who is out on a limb there, very much like when he was Arbiter of Succession or Worf's Cha'Dlch, but it would be unlikely anyone would mount an official objection to it.

    Killing Duras, on the other hand, clearly conduct unbecoming. There were special circumstances there too though, even ones outside cultural aspects. Again, Picard's call.

    There is only one situation where Worf's conduct was difficult to accept, & that was his decision to refuse aid to the dying Romulan in The Enemy. I don't think Picard has been so disappointed or disapproving of Worf ever, & it actually surprises me that Worf would ever get a promotion from him, & it took until the 1st movie for him to get one
  8. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 20, 2012
    Worf is still in Starfleet because he received special treatment from Picard on multiple occasions.

    I think the killing of Duras is far more difficult to accept than The Enemy. Picard believes in individual freedoms even at the expense of the bigger picture. He could have ordered Worf to give blood and he would have, and he declined to give that order, because he believed in Worf's right to make that decision no matter how strongly he disagreed.

    Picard's acceptance of the murder of Duras, as well as his allowance of Worf to rejoin Starfleet, was not about the resources he'd put into training him and was all about their personal relationship.

    I've never seen evidence that in Starfleet people have to serve for a set term. Starfleet is portrayed as something people strive and work their whole lives to join, so their attitude is: Don't want to be in Starfleet? Well these billion other guys would love to take your place. So as long as the Captain approves the resignation, they can leave whenever they want. Just usually they wouldn't be allowed back. Except of course, in the Dominion War, when people would probably have not been allowed to resign.
  9. MikeS

    MikeS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Sep 6, 2008
    Liverpool, UK
    Couldn't Picard's "I understand" line be alot simpler than the interpretation here? Worf had been given hope that his dad was still alive and gone to find him. I always took the line to be Picard's way of acknowledging and empathising with Worf's renewed grief.
  10. Maxwell Everett

    Maxwell Everett Commodore Commodore

    Mar 31, 2002
    Los Angeles, CA
    The script is pretty clear that Picard knows Worf means the opposite of what he says. Saying "No one survived Khitomer" is clearly not true and Picard must know that, because Worf himself is a survivor of Khitomer!

    Good dialogue is all about subtext. :)
  11. pontypool

    pontypool Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Nov 1, 2013
    I always thought the romulans were sneaking in through federations space into klingon space and the blockade was on the federation border?
    Even so, the federation and klingons are allies, so it shouldn't create a diplomatic incident if they are monitoring the klingon border.