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TMP / TOS Skin Detail

I naturally disagree. I think it is quite clear that Matt Jefferies intended those tubes on the original NCC-1701's warp nacelles to function as the condensers of a heat pipe radiator system. After all, why else would they have grooves but to maximize surface area? If such is the case then what would be the point of playing around with hull (which would already be insulated to hell) coatings to reduce the ship's IR signature when these things would be blinding in that part of the EM spectrum.

Impulse stealth? The F/A-22 makes mockery of the concept of hiding in the sky when its afterburners are blazing, but at military power it's reasonably IR-stealthy, at forward angles anyway. The weird tubes on the warp engines need not compromise the ship at impulse speeds.

Impulse exhaust - which your accursed ST:VI stated was ionized gas - would also render any such "stealth" measures relatively ineffective.

It must be relatively diffuse ionized gas, and perhaps not ejected constantly (for Newtonian thrust) but as occasional burps (more akin to the combustion exhaust through a tailpipe they were using as the analogy), or else the ship's regular sensors would already have rendered the cloak ineffective.

And partial stealth is always worth striving for. Even if your tank isn't exactly invisible, it pays to muffle the engine; even if your jet makes an awful noise, it pays to paint it blue.

...until advances in materials engineering rendered it moot for the TMP-era.

Exactly. Although further advances in other fields might have brought back the need for ablative paint for the TNG era, as suggested in the TNG Tech Manual. Say, warp drives might have improved faster than navigational deflectors did.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Impulse stealth? The F/A-22 makes mockery of the concept of hiding in the sky when its afterburners are blazing, but at military power it's reasonably IR-stealthy, at forward angles anyway. The weird tubes on the warp engines need not compromise the ship at impulse speeds.

Those condensers - being the only such units visible on Constitution Class starships - are presumably intended to regulate the space vehicle's entire thermal budget, not just that of the warp engines.

TGT
 
But only presumably. And they appear to be unique to that particular era and design, there being other ways to handle thermal balance in ships of other eras and nationalities.

If IR stealth were of practical importance, I'm sure TOS era technology could be used to create temporary internal sinks that would hold the ship's thermal breath for the duration of a stealthy maneuver. For all we know, the standard method used is a variation of the transporter, and deposits the bulk of the waste heat tens of thousands of kilometers away from the ship, thus making lesser protective measures possible and necessary.

Timo Saloniemi
 
But only presumably.

One can only presume, because A). Franz Joseph shorted-out any possibility of a Matt Jefferies/Harvey Lynn/Gene Roddenberry-authored TM and B). the sorry dipshit excuses for Generation One fans never bothered to ask MJ what his intentions were with each and every single doodad on the Enterprise photographic miniature or, if one did, he is keeping the answers in some Liechtenstein safe deposit box.

TGT
 
There's another important reason the Navy paints their ships - giving the crew something to do! My coworker here at the office says he spent most of his two tours on the USS Prebble (DD49) hanging over the side repainting the goddamn hull. :lol:
 
There's another important reason the Navy paints their ships - giving the crew something to do! My coworker here at the office says he spent most of his two tours on the USS Prebble (DD49) hanging over the side repainting the goddamn hull. :lol:

That's probably what Chekov was doing first season. I have this picture in mind of him leaning out a window, dabbing grey paint on the saucer rim.

Still wouldn't explain how Khan knew him from SPACE SEED though.
 
There's another important reason the Navy paints their ships - giving the crew something to do! My coworker here at the office says he spent most of his two tours on the USS Prebble (DD49) hanging over the side repainting the goddamn hull. :lol:

That's probably what Chekov was doing first season. I have this picture in mind of him leaning out a window, dabbing grey paint on the saucer rim.

Still wouldn't explain how Khan knew him from SPACE SEED though.

They waved at each other through one of the portholes.
 
Anybody have an answer as to the difference between deflectors and force-fields since at least in TMP the statement "forcefields and deflectors coming up", and Decker advocating a defensive posture; shields and screens?
 
There ain't no stealth in space, guys. Even cloaking devices are ludicrous. Unless you're violating the law of conservation of energy (like phasers seem to) and shunting the heat into subspace (where subspace sensors could probably detect it), any ship running multiple big, hot reactors, lots of circuitry, and supporting a nice, warm, Earth-like environment is going to stand out on infrared sensors like a neon sign against the icy blackness of space. Even if you can warp external light and sensor beams around your ship, you can't hide the massive amounts of heat your ship is radiating without cooking yourself. What an F-22 does is irrelevant. Space is a totally different environment. Check out this webpage, if you haven't already (all about the science of stealth in space and detecting other ships):

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html

As for the cooling pipes on the 1701 - I always figured those were for cooling the warp engines only. The radiators for the bulk of the ship itself would have to be somewhat larger, I think. The nacelle pylon surfaces, coupled with upper and lower saucer surfaces would be good, I think.
 
As for the cooling pipes on the 1701 - I always figured those were for cooling the warp engines only. The radiators for the bulk of the ship itself would have to be somewhat larger, I think.

Hardly. The Enterprise could have a radiator the size of a penny if it is run at a sufficiently high temperature.

The nacelle pylon surfaces, coupled with upper and lower saucer surfaces would be good, I think.

Engine pylons? Maybe. Saucer surfaces? Aside from reducing the efficiency of spaceframe insulation that would interfere with the infrared sensors (which would need to be actively cooled to as close to 0K as possible for maximum sensitivity) in the upper and lower radomes.

TGT
 
I dunno - starships generate a lot of heat, and a vacuum is a REALLY good insulator. All realistic nuclear-powered spacecraft designs I've seen incorporate huge radiating surfaces. Something the size of a penny, you say? It would have to be radiating thousands of degrees of heat away from the ship without deforming or melting. Maybe hundreds of thousands. Aside from unobtanium, I know of no material that could do that.

Then again, Star Trek is replete with unobtanium and handwavium, in large quantities.
 
The saucer-surface radiator is an interesting thought. In the 1930s there were several high-powered racing airplanes that did something similar: the radiators were built into the wing surfaces - they were the wing surfaces, formed into an airfoil shape.

Of course there's no visual evidence for such a thing in Trek.
 
The saucer-surface radiator is an interesting thought. In the 1930s there were several high-powered racing airplanes that did something similar: the radiators were built into the wing surfaces - they were the wing surfaces, formed into an airfoil shape.

Of course there's no visual evidence for such a thing in Trek.
No indeed... radiators would likely glow a dull red color, at least on a ship that big and powerful. Maybe they found a way to shunt it all out of the impulse exhaust.
 
No indeed... radiators would likely glow a dull red color, at least on a ship that big and powerful.

Presumably UESPA/Starfleet engineers would have made the electrical and propulsion systems aboard the NCC-1701 as energy efficient as possible, so that most of the output generated by the onboard fusion and M/AM reactors doesn't end up being radiated away into space.

Maybe they found a way to shunt it all out of the impulse exhaust.

Or the thermal excess in the primary and secondary hulls is simply conducted to the existing radiators on the warp nacelles.

TGT
 
Well, now, hang on - aren't the insides fo the space shuttle's cargo doors heat radiators? They don't glow at all.
 
I don't quite buy into the prominant display of the hull plating. If you look at any relative sized contemporary naval vessel (military/ tanker) from a distance where you can comfortably take in the entire vessel in your field of vision, you can see that the hulls look fairly smooth. Especially with a new paint job. You can see some plating in some cases, though it's faint, and you don't really get the detail of the plating until you get really close.
Agreed. Now, in TMP, the hull-plating variation was really pretty subtle (almost impossible to make out from some lighting conditions, and most obvious when in "highlight.") This is something that's pretty common when dealing with real sheetmetal... no two panels of sheetmetal have the exact same grain structure, so they don't look quite identical. I've always taken the super-subtle panel detail from TMP as though it was intended to give us a "raw sheet metal" effect... though I know that some folks (including A. Probert) would prefer for the hull to be made of some metal/ceramic composite.

The ideal is not for this to be visible except when viewed from close-up, and even then only under very specific, high-intensity lighting conditions. But having it be visible (as seen in TMP) does give a sense of reality that flat appearance failed to provide. The problem is that with later versions (including the partial repaint of the 1701(r) as well as the second version of the 1701-D model), this got overemphasized, and it became an extremely obvious "paint scheme" rather than the super-subtle detail that's almost unnoticable but which tricks the eye into thinking it's seeing something real.

The heavier the contrast between panels is, the less "real" the ship looks to me. Subtle detail... almost subliminal, really... is what makes me see "big and real" in a ship. That's why the 1701-E design never looked "big" no matter how well the ship was presented on-screen (and overall, I do like that design... my main quibbles on the 1701-E are with the underside of the p-hull and the silly paint scheme!).
I don't think the paint would be liquid in the 23rd century. Hell, something along the lines of a powder coating/ electroplating of some sort, would be more plausible. Or even that the plating materials would already be replicated with the colours infused or applied to the materials in question.
I'm not sure that these would be mutually exclusive. Different processes, as we all know, have different advantages and disadvantages. Liquid paint, for instance, is a far more effective sealant, while processes like powder-coating gives a more uniform coating over large areas. Individually-tinted materials (or specialized coatings on individual panels, applied prior to final assembly) also could apply. I doubt that we'll ever see any of the above simply go away... and in particular, if you were talking about a material which was applied as a protective coating (where gap-filling is a major positive) I'm sure that liquid application would remain the best solution.

So the issue really comes down to "what's the purpose of the coloration," doesn't it?
I think those kind of details should be left to close up views. The ship looks cleaner- more realistic (as compared to what I said about about ships). As far as cool factor goes, when did clutter ever become the definition for detail as opposed to simplicity? More of 'something' does not equate to detail in some cases.
Absolutely correct. It's a very odd conceit... that "more greebly detail = more believable/modern" when in reality, everything is just the opposite. Cars... aircraft... naval vessels... personal electronics... everything! The more advanced stuff is typically the stuff with the cleanest, least cluttered lines.

A great example would be in aircraft design. Look at early aircraft... say, the Sopwith Camel. There is a lot of visible detail on the exterior,and virtually every piece of operational hardware is exposed. Now, look at, say, the F-22 (which I was fortunate enough to get to work on for a while)... there are almost no exposed pieces of technology on the ship...everything (including embarked ordnance) is internal. (To fire a missile, you have to open the bay within which the missile is stowed... momentarily increasing your radar cross-section and momentarily harming your aerodynamic behavior).

The idea that "more exposed detail = more believable/more advanced" is really an outgrowth of the "2001/Star Wars" filmmaking style. It illustrates just how powerful filmed imagery is... not what reality actually is. ;)
 
Well, now, hang on - aren't the insides fo the space shuttle's cargo doors heat radiators? They don't glow at all.
Yep, they are. They don't glow because a shuttle doesn't have that much waste heat - its not a huge starship powered by multiple high-powered nuclear reactors.

Still, if it doesn't leave its cargo doors open in space, it'd quickly overheat.
 
Well, now, hang on - aren't the insides fo the space shuttle's cargo doors heat radiators? They don't glow at all.
Yep, they are. They don't glow because a shuttle doesn't have that much waste heat - its not a huge starship powered by multiple high-powered nuclear reactors.

Still, if it doesn't leave its cargo doors open in space, it'd quickly overheat.
Exactly.

And technically, they do "glow." Every erg of waste energy which is dissipated by them is dissipated in the form of electromagnetic radiation. "Light" is simply the term we use to describe a certain range of electromagnetic radiation which our eyes can detect. These panels radiate, on the other hand, primarily in the IR spectrum. But they do radiate... ie, "glow."

The problem with latter-day Trek "radiator" elements is that they're way too consistent in the color of radiation we see... and that the wavelengths we see aren't ones which are particularly effective for rejection of waste heat. Bright, primary-color blue isn't the best choice, after all.

I don't mind the idea of a little blue-white glow if it's supposed to be extraordinarily hot... but it should start off with pale red, rise up past orange, into yellow, white, and then blue... just like you get if, say, you superheat a piece of steel.

And remember, when we see those visible-light spectra... the REAL energy rejection is still in the infrared range, not the visible light range (which makes up a trivially small percentage of all emitted energy in that circumstance). Meaning... if you had the 1701-D's warp engine coils behaving as radiators, and they're so hot that they're emitting that brilliant of a blue light, the amount of IR being put out would be enough to flash-fry anyone who was ever exposed to it... or to damage the life on the surface of a planet the ship was orbiting... or so forth. They'd have been far better off to show the ship orbiting with the coils "cold" (and showing their normal coppery appearance, rather than the blue-glow).
 
I always figured the blue glow from a ship's nacelles in later Trek was Cherenkov radiation, rather than being caused by heat alone. But either is deadly and dangerous to anything near the ship - Trek has rarely if ever taken into account the implications of antimatter fuel, radiation, and faster-than-light propulsion to planetary populations...
 
Hardly. The Enterprise could have a radiator the size of a penny if it is run at a sufficiently high temperature.

And, consequently, almost perfect heat stealth in the vacuum of space. That is, the heat flow could easily be channeled to a very narrow cone pointing away from the enemy, and the vacuum would prevent any telltale beam spread or backscatter.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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