TMP Klingon Footage Disconnect

[Vger23]

Has anyone every found it jarring that the footage that is "live" of Mark Leonard aboard the Amar in the opening of TMP doesn't really match the footage of the transmission that Epsilon IX is monitoring during the same sequence?

In the live footage, everything is tense, urgent, but quiet and subdued. In the "monitored" footage, the set is shaking pretty aggressively, the Klingon Captain is standing behind his chair, there is a lot of activity in the background, etc etc. Heck, he even gets thrown to the ground at the end of the transmission. Later, cut back to the Amar, he's sitting calmly but intently in his captain's throne again.

The two sets of footage, which are supposed to run concurrent with each other, really don't match in any way. I've read "Return to Tomorrow" cover-to-cover and I've got a bunch of TMP "making of" books etc, but I've never been able to find a production reason for this. Was the Klingon Attack scene altered / edited differently? Is there another version of this scene that didn't match up? The only other evidence I've seen is the Klingon Captain in a similar looking position in one of the trailers for TMP.

Thoughts?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Great question.

 

[pfontaine2]

Of course, this is just my head canon but the sequence begins with 3 ships. Later in the sequence only two ships are shown to be destroyed on-screen. We never see the "destruction" of the first ship which makes me think that this is the ship that Epsilon 9 is viewing because of the chaos happening on that ship.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

The sequence begins with three Klingon Cruisers heading towards VGer. The camera focuses on the middle ship and the film cuts to the interior of the ship. The Klingon commander orders tactical to fire on VGer but it's not the middle ship that fires, it's the ship on the right that does so. The implication is that the middle ship is the "command" ship and that the other ships do as ordered.

The ship on the right fires 3 shots into the VGer and the attack is absorbed by the cloud. The story then cuts to Epsilon 9 who are monitoring the situation. The staff is viewing the interior of one of the Klingon ships which is obviously under attack at that point. What's confusing is that the next exterior shot shows only two Klingon ships at this point. What happened to the first ship? Even the Klingon tactical screen shows only two ships.

Based on this, I believe that Epsilon 9 is viewing the interior of the first Klingon ship being attacked even if we don't see its destruction from the exterior. This makes the "chaos" on the Klingon ship that Epsilon 9 is watching understandable. The remainder of the sequence makes sense at this point...the second cruiser is attacked and "destroyed" followed by the third which is the Amar (the "command ship").

 

[Vger23]

Of course, this is just my head canon but the sequence begins with 3 ships. Later in the sequence only two ships are shown to be destroyed on-screen. We never see the "destruction" of the first ship which makes me think that this is the ship that Epsilon 9 is viewing because of the chaos happening on that ship.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

The sequence begins with three Klingon Cruisers heading towards VGer. The camera focuses on the middle ship and the film cuts to the interior of the ship. The Klingon commander orders tactical to fire on VGer but it's not the middle ship that fires, it's the ship on the right that does so. The implication is that the middle ship is the "command" ship and that the other ships do as ordered.

The ship on the right fires 3 shots into the VGer and the attack is absorbed by the cloud. The story then cuts to Epsilon 9 who are monitoring the situation. The staff is viewing the interior of one of the Klingon ships which is obviously under attack at that point. What's confusing is that the next exterior shot shows only two Klingon ships at this point. What happened to the first ship? Even the Klingon tactical screen shows only two ships.

Based on this, I believe that Epsilon 9 is viewing the interior of the first Klingon ship being attacked even if we don't see its destruction from the exterior. This makes the "chaos" on the Klingon ship that Epsilon 9 is watching understandable. The remainder of the sequence makes sense at this point...the second cruiser is attacked and "destroyed" followed by the third which is the Amar (the "command ship").

I always thought that too, but isn't the Klingon on the transmission the same one as on the command ship, played by Mark Lenard no less?

 

[pfontaine2]

I always thought that too, but isn't the Klingon on the transmission the same one as on the command ship, played by Mark Lenard no less?

I don't think so....he looks like he's against a wall, not in the middle of the ship.

 

[trynda1701]

That theory works, but the ship on screen is the Amar, per the translation . If it's Lenard on screen at Epsilon 9, it won't.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I always thought it was Lenard on the translator screen. If it turns out that it wasn't Lenard, that would be a big revelation to me.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=63223&fullsize=1
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=63190&fullsize=1

 

[Bad Robot]

Can't really tell if it's not him. I would guess the first cruiser (possibly the one that fired) was being destroyed (imploded, digitized, whatever) at the exact moment of the transmission.

 

[Vger23]

I'm pretty sure it's Lenard

 

[Vger23]

I don't think so....he looks like he's against a wall, not in the middle of the ship.

Look again, he's standing behind the captains chair with his hand on it.

 

[Firebird]

Here's the battle of the Klingons against V'ger as scripted:

18 INT. KLINGON BRIDGE (O) 18

The Klingon crew grim, desperate, watching a BRIGHT
STACCATO BLIP OF POWER from within the LUMINESCENCE.

KLINGON CAPTAIN
(quickly; Klingonese)
Full forcefields; evasive
maneuvers.

19 EXT. SPACE - THE CLOUD - THE KLINGON PATROL (S) 19

Out of the LUMINESCENCE hurtles a FRIGHTENING WHIPLASH
OF ENERGY. It bears down on the Klingon Patrol, now
in an evasive maneuver. Then the WHIPLASH BOLT hits
the third cruiser in a writhing flare of energy which
totally engulfs the vessel.

The other two ships veer off, warping around again into
attack position. The THIRD SHIP has begun to implode
in on itself, the matter-energy of its existence
drained by the WHIPLASH BOLT THAT HOLDS IT.

20 ANGLE ON REMAINING KLINGON CRUISERS (O) 20

desperately defending themselves, FORCEFIELDS FULL UP,
RAPIDLY FIRING PHOTON TORPEDOES. But now a SECOND
WHIPLASH ENERGY BOLT has emerged from the cloud and
hits the second vessel, DESTROYING it.

The THIRD WHIPLASH BOLT glances off the surviving
Cruiser as the ship retreats in a wide, evasive turn,
FIRING from stern tubes.

21 INT. KLINGON BRIDGE 21

The bridge shattered; Klingon bodies. The mortally-
wounded Captain is transmitting urgently:

KLINGON CAPTAIN
(in Klingonese)
... severely damaged. Returning
fire...

22 EXT. SPACE - STARFLEET MONITOR STATION EPSILON 9 (S) 22

Serenity here. A barren, rocky small planetoid softly
lit by the myriad stars. This is a small Starfleet
outpost, antennae sprouting everywhere. Tiny figures
(WORKERS) servicing one antenna illustrate the size
of the installation.

23 INT. EPSILON 9 - MONITOR ROOM - A VIEWER (O) 23

SHOWING the battle scene, and the VOICE OF THE KLINGON
CAPTAIN in his last stand against the Object; his VOICE
is weary, almost mechanical. On the adjacent viewer,
an English printout of the Klingon’s words chatters
along the bottom of the picture:

KLINGON CAPTAIN
(In Klingonese)
Imperial Klingon Cruiser Amar...
severely damaged by unfamiliar
weaponry... intruder unidentified...

 

[Timo]

Vger23's headcanon works well enough when we consider that all the Klingons in all the scenes look the same.

That is, all of them have that lobster lounging on their forehead. If one of the ships is crewed so exclusively by members of House Lobster, then odds might be all of them are, and M'Lenard's excitable kid brother is commanding the Amar, the first of the ships to be lost (only seen in interior view), right before the Bmar (the loss of which is seen in exterior view) - while M'Lenard himself gets digitized last, aboard his Cmar.

There's no canon connection between the command ship / last survivor and the name Amar other than the use of Lenard in connection with both, now is there?

Of course, it might be there is more to the battle than we see, with the Klingons actually learning how to partially defend themselves (Starfleet knew how to do that, after all), meaning M'Lenard gets to survive one rattling hit before serenely surrendering to the fact that the next one will finish him...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

As I recall reading, the opening sequence was re-edited several times, and when the decision was made for the V'ger bolts to digitize instead of destroy (see storyboards showing a Klingon ship having a nacelle blown off), this created the continuity issue in question that the final edit doesn't address. Abel's people did test pyro on a bunch of foam Klingon models, which hints at the original direction for the sequences.

 

[Timo]

It's a mixed bag. The more destructive version might have looked more impressive, except it probably wouldn't have been technically viable to pull off the "impressive" bit and we would just have gotten Star Wars style sparks and fireballs that are fine with small craft but fall flat on the supposed mighty starships. There's class to the more somber approach, but we fail to grasp the excitement of maneuvering at FTL speeds when the ships are basically (and realistically) immobile to us.

And Klingons retaining their cool is cool, but this fails to create contrast with our heroes who also should retain their cool but also make it very clear what a challenge this is to anybody with a brain and a heart. If nobody is allowed to panic, then Kirk becomes a nobody...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

Relevant images.

ADDITIONAL CONCEPTS (LINK)

 

[johnnybear]

I always assumed it was one of the other Klingon ships due to Mark Lenard's Commander not seeming too disturbed about anything during his retreat from V'Ger! It's also amusing here that all the Klingons seen here have a long ridge in their foreheads instead as we see in later films a turtle or a blancmange! I wonder if these guys in their new K'Tinga class ships are yet another branch of the Klingon Empire rather than a group of metamorphosing warriors out on patrol?
JB

 

[Bad Robot]

It's also amusing here that all the Klingons seen here have a long ridge in their foreheads instead as we see in later films a turtle or a blancmange! I wonder if these guys in their new K'Tinga class ships are yet another branch of the Klingon Empire rather than a group of metamorphosing warriors out on patrol?
JB

I think Harve Bennett or somebody under him just decided Mark Lenard's make-up wouldn't work on Christpher Lloyd for most of an entire movie.

 

[johnnybear]

HaHaHa I quite liked the long ridge and whiskers look to the turtle or blancmange scalps to be honest! I could sort of believe that Klingons could either have always had that bony head and just combed it over or they were embracing it now and shaved their heads!
JB

 

[FormerLurker]

Since Kruge and company all have different ridges, I have ever since SFS believed that the Amar and its companion vessels were clanships, all manned by members of the same house. I have also believed that the house in question was led by that era's Supreme Commander, and with his death at V'gers hands(?!), the new Supreme Commander was one that allowed the ridged Klingons to become more of a presence against the Federation. This is my headcanon for why the ridged Klingons are suddenly so prevalent.

 

[Jeyl]

I vote we search and find all the raw takes of the Klingon footage shot for TMP.