Spoilers Titans - DC Universe Series

[Xerxes82]

Ok, some thoughts on the new episode.

First, tangential thoughts. I am absolutely in love with Savannah Welch. Her Barbara Gordon is a delight. I may not be a fan of the writing, really in general, but the performance is working for me. And she's absolutely lovely (that gala dress at the start of the episode was killing me). If nothing else, I hope this gets her more parts in other projects. I would love to see more of her.

On the same note, Blackfire. Stunningly beautiful. And I love the attitude. Another actress I hope to see more of. Her budding relationship with Conner was one of only two plots in the episode I enjoyed. The scene in the stolen car where they talked about their relationship was adorable. Blackfire isn't at all what I expected from the lead in last season and I fully expect a betrayal from her before this is said and done, but I'm loving this character.

Crane. He goes from villainous mastermind to complete and utter sad sack. What? The performance sold it, but I just don't like the creative choice. They telegraphed his "plan" at the end really hard with the "torch powered by the sun" line from the inspector early in the episode, but I did kind of enjoy the desperation Kartheiser put into Crane there.

Tim Drake. After forgetting about him for weeks, he's back. And he's perfect. Maybe a little more (subtle) ego and attitude than the early comic version, and him WANTING to be Robin is a little different. But it sings. My favorite DC character of all time, so I'm biased as hell. But I love this version. He was the best part of the episode by far, for me.

Jason. I can't buy the redemption arc after Hank. Sorry writers, you sold "evil" Jason too hard. That said, I continue to be impressed by Curran Walters. I have so many problems with this show, but the cast is overall amazing. If we had better writing and production values there is a recipe here for something truly special and noteworthy. We're not going to get it, sadly, but it shows through from time to time and just makes me wistful for what might have been.

And finally, I want a Gotham based spinoff. Yes, with better writers who don't think all superheroes are just incompetent super villains. But Barbara, Tim, even Jason could all carry the weight. Let's run with a Gotham absolutely broken and in desperate need and let's look at the people just off kilter enough to risk it all trying to put it back together. Bring in Spoiler, maybe Cass Cain. Gotham Knights. With Red Hood as a reluctant and frequently antagonistic ally and Babs in the "Oracle" chair trying to keep everyone alive.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

How’s that old saying go? Once you go Blackfire you’ll never backfire. I think that’s it.

This was one of the more coherent and sensible Titan outings. Very few “C’mon!” moments of that Picard WTF meme variety.

Blackfire was a bit out of character but it made her quite likable. She seems to have become more friendly a little too quickly but I was really liking her here it was just a bit abrupt.

I agree with the above that Jason’s redemption is a hard sell. This kind of story usually has a tragic end so I guess we'll see where they're going with him. At least to their credit it was presented as a hard sell.

I have to mention those "tunnels" though. Those seem pretty magnificent to be abandoned and just have some unlocked door leading to them.

 

[Commander Troi]

On the same note, Blackfire. Stunningly beautiful. And I love the attitude. Another actress I hope to see more of. Her budding relationship with Conner was one of only two plots in the episode I enjoyed. The scene in the stolen car where they talked about their relationship was adorable. Blackfire isn't at all what I expected from the lead in last season and I fully expect a betrayal from her before this is said and done, but I'm loving this character.

Crane. He goes from villainous mastermind to complete and utter sad sack. What? The performance sold it, but I just don't like the creative choice. They telegraphed his "plan" at the end really hard with the "torch powered by the sun" line from the inspector early in the episode, but I did kind of enjoy the desperation Kartheiser put into Crane there.

Tim Drake. After forgetting about him for weeks, he's back. And he's perfect. Maybe a little more (subtle) ego and attitude than the early comic version, and him WANTING to be Robin is a little different. But it sings. My favorite DC character of all time, so I'm biased as hell. But I love this version. He was the best part of the episode by far, for me.

Jason. I can't buy the redemption arc after Hank. Sorry writers, you sold "evil" Jason too hard. That said, I continue to be impressed by Curran Walters. I have so many problems with this show, but the cast is overall amazing.

I agree with you about the cast. I'm really impressed with all of them.

I'm still not sure that Blackfire is going to betray them. Connor's honesty and vulnerability really seems to be opening her up (no pun intended). When he admitted she was his first... the look on her face was amazing. This is truly a woman who has never felt loved, or even liked!

Kartheiser's performance is awesome, but the scene with Crane's mother also sold me. I don't think we've seen much of his background in comics, but having that woman being horrible to him about his fears made more sense to me than the whole "looks like Ichabod Crane" origin from comics. They upped his crazy nicely IMO. Yes, we've all seen the X in the water supply plot before, but it is actually scary.

I too was happy to see Tim showing up much like he did in the comics.

Jason, Jason, Jason... yeah, I don't see this ending well, but I was glad to see remorse anyway. And I love Gar for wanting - still! - to save his friend.

So... the water above Barbara's desk - just bad pipes? I think not. The purple cloud under the bed & Kory's continuing fugue states? Dick's weird flashbacks/hallucinations? And what about the red sky at the end? I don't think we're doing Crisis. Speculations?

 

[thribs]

That afterlife stuff was just weird. Felt like something from Supernatural. Wasn’t a fan of that.
Bruce offing himself also felt out of character, not to mention his way of trying it seemed incredibly inefficient.
I hope they explain how Donna knew how to find him. Those two threads didn’t connect at all.

 

[Xerxes82]

I liked this one. Note that the writer, Richard Hatem, has written pretty much all of my favorite episodes of this series (Jason Todd, Donna Troy, Rose, Conner and now this one). He seems to like to parse off the cast into smaller bits and lean into the guest players and it works. Also, he's the only writer I feel like has a good grasp on the "broken heroes" trope, instead of just making them villains in different outfits.

Hawk. A great send off to this character. I loved that they brought back his brother for that last scene. We all knew Hank wasn't making it back to the living world, the actor is on to other projects. But this was appropriately heroic,and gave him some growth in moving past revenge to true heroism and self-sacrifice at the end. Good stuff.

Donna. So the reason she wasn't back yet is because she didn't want to come back. The arc was a little thin, but now that she's back it feels like maybe a little hope has bled back into the proceedings.

Tim. Interesting. They moved his arc from A Lonely Place of Dying from Bruce to Donna. Rather than calling Batman back to his humanity through Robin, he calls Donna back to the living world. I mentioned last week that this version seemed to have a little more ego than his comics counterpart, but he felt truly humbled here. The moment where he acknowledged that he died a coward (which was a harsh reading of the situation) felt very real. He now recognizes that he isn't truly ready for the journey he has set himself upon. I'll be curious if this is followed up on in future episodes with a different attitude from Tim now that he's back.

Rachel. Kind of divorced from the main story and it suffered a bit. I liked seeing her finally come to terms with the fact that her powers can't just fix everything, and finally accept her grief over Donna. But this was the weakest part of the episode overall.

Bruce offing himself also felt out of character, not to mention his way of trying it seemed incredibly inefficient.

I don't agree at all that this felt out of character. Rather, for a Bruce that turned to murder in his grief for Jason and has now had time to come to terms with his actions and what they mean, I feel like it rather suited the character. Everything he spent his life working for has been thrown away, meaningless, by his own choices. The real problem is that we haven't spent any time with the character to GET to this place, so as an audience you have to do way to much inferring about his frame of mind.

The pickle will be in the resolution, should there be one. I'm not sure how you fix any of this without revealing that Joker is still alive, which rather moots the entire arc in some ways. If Bruce were a main character and we could spend time with him we could earn the arc more meaningfully. But that's a larger picture problem for this show.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

I figured that Hank wasn’t returning to life because he didn’t have an intact body like Tim and Donna had.

 

[marillion]

I figured that Hank wasn’t returning to life because he didn’t have an intact body like Tim and Donna had.

Yeah.. That would be awkward. Also seems like a very logical explanation. I had the same thought.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Kind of weird episode, a plot like that seems more the realm of Doom Patrol. (EDIT: I wrote this before checking out DP Season 3, I stand by what I wrote! ) I did like the idea of Hawk going through the afterlife in a classic car blaring Bon Jovi, seemed appropriate.

These Canadian shows like this and Batwoman with their cold ass looking paradise islands. This one looked really cold, like Lake Superior type chilly. Last time they were betrayed when Crane’s mother said “sohry”.

 

[Xerxes82]

I figured that Hank wasn’t returning to life because he didn’t have an intact body like Tim and Donna had.

Definitely. I think that's probably why the bridge started crumbling, as well. He COULDN'T go back even if he wanted to. So the bridge started coming apart to prevent his crossing.

I also think Tim wasn't DEAD dead. He was receiving medical treatment. More in the gray area between life and death than just plain dead. Which might explain why he was so much more affected by the ghouls attacks. He was basically in agonizing pain, while Donna and Hank were just sort of staggered and quickly recovered. Might also explain why the ghouls pursued the group, as Tim was nearer to being alive than most. Perhaps he was richer fruit, or a more tantalizing prize.

 

[thribs]

Well we know Hank wasn’t coming back since he’s starring in the Jack Reacher show now.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I feel like the only one in the room who hasn’t followed these casting announcements lol.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I hope they explain how Donna knew how to find him. Those two threads didn’t connect at all.

She was dead, he was dying. Seems pretty straight forward.

 

[thribs]

She was dead, he was dying. Seems pretty straight forward.

She has that ability now?

 

[Nerys Myk]

She has that ability now?

One off, back from the dead mystical stuff.

 

[Commander Troi]

Finally, some movement on the Parad... Themyscira part of things! I enjoyed this a lot, but then, I've seen every episode of Supernatural, some more than once.

Hawk. A great send off to this character. I loved that they brought back his brother for that last scene. We all knew Hank wasn't making it back to the living world, the actor is on to other projects. But this was appropriately heroic,and gave him some growth in moving past revenge to true heroism and self-sacrifice at the end. Good stuff.

Donna. So the reason she wasn't back yet is because she didn't want to come back. The arc was a little thin, but now that she's back it feels like maybe a little hope has bled back into the proceedings.

(I have nothing to add to your comments on Tim, so I cut them for space.)

Rachel. Kind of divorced from the main story and it suffered a bit. I liked seeing her finally come to terms with the fact that her powers can't just fix everything, and finally accept her grief over Donna. But this was the weakest part of the episode overall.

I don't agree at all that this felt out of character. Rather, for a Bruce that turned to murder in his grief for Jason and has now had time to come to terms with his actions and what they mean, I feel like it rather suited the character. Everything he spent his life working for has been thrown away, meaningless, by his own choices. The real problem is that we haven't spent any time with the character to GET to this place, so as an audience you have to do way to much inferring about his frame of mind.

The pickle will be in the resolution, should there be one. I'm not sure how you fix any of this without revealing that Joker is still alive, which rather moots the entire arc in some ways. If Bruce were a main character and we could spend time with him we could earn the arc more meaningfully. But that's a larger picture problem for this show.

Hank: I couldn't agree with you more. I also figured his body being blowed up would make it impossible for him to come back. I loved seeing him reunited with Don! A lovely send-off.

Donna: I disagree that her arc was thin. She felt her death wasn't heroic enough (proving the writers knew what they were doing) so she was resigned to moving on. But as Hank pointed out, it's in her nature to help people, which is why she followed Tim in the first place. I agree about the hope though - Donna always brings that.

Rachel: I felt this was incredibly necessary. She needed training and discipline badly and the Amazons not only understand fighting, but mystical energies. Lydia was awesome. I loved the council scene - someone did their homework! - and how certain touches in Rachel's clothing were similar to her comics outfit.

Bruce: I was of 2 minds on this one, but you swayed me. I'm guessing the new will leaves everything to Dick instead of splitting with Jason, but there could be a surprise there. Given that this show isn't about Bruce, I feel there was enough *in the show* to get him to this place. Plus, how will he react when he realizes he's still alive? Should be interesting.

Like you, I have no idea how any of this will be resolved, but I look forward to finding out!

She was dead, he was dying. Seems pretty straight forward.

Sorta. Or a new ability? Or...? I hope we get even a one line "explanation". Of course, Donna's background & powers & costume & name have been changed more than once in comics, so we'll have to see what happens.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"Dietrich and Harris". Someone must be a Barney Miller fan,

 

[Commander Troi]

I caught that too.

Nice example of fake news and scapegoating. Crane's psychiatrist background is used to great effect here. Whatever Kartheiser's personal issues, he's very good here, and I especially loved him parading around the manor. I think Red Hood is completely covered head-to-toe so that he's easily replaceable - or duplicatable. I think Crane wants to have "Red Hood" be both Gotham's hero and the head of the crime families, while he remains the "power behind the throne."

The cops being paid to turn on the Titans was predictable, but seeing Connor that pissed off was great. I know many of you think/thought Blackfire still has her own plans, but Kory isn't thinking straight - there was no way Blackfire could plan on getting hurt and then healed by her sister.

I loved Raven showing up at the end for Gar. She looked right out of a Perez drawing and I was thrilled.

Babs has been arrested. Will Dick break her out? I think so.

Then there's Donna... I'm happy the fight scene showed how much of a badass she really is, but can Amazons just pull you into pocket dimensions at will? I don't remember that from comics.

3 episodes left this season. Any thoughts on how it's going to go from here?

 

[Nerys Myk]

In some versions Paradise Island exists in a different dimension and it can literally appear anywhere on Earth. Probably has to be near a body of water, though that was never stated.

 

[Noname Given]

I caught that too.

Nice example of fake news and scapegoating. Crane's psychiatrist background is used to great effect here. Whatever Kartheiser's personal issues, he's very good here, and I especially loved him parading around the manor. I think Red Hood is completely covered head-to-toe so that he's easily replaceable - or duplicatable. I think Crane wants to have "Red Hood" be both Gotham's hero and the head of the crime families, while he remains the "power behind the throne."

The cops being paid to turn on the Titans was predictable, but seeing Connor that pissed off was great. I know many of you think/thought Blackfire still has her own plans, but Kory isn't thinking straight - there was no way Blackfire could plan on getting hurt and then healed by her sister.

I loved Raven showing up at the end for Gar. She looked right out of a Perez drawing and I was thrilled.

Babs has been arrested. Will Dick break her out? I think so.

Then there's Donna... I'm happy the fight scene showed how much of a badass she really is, but can Amazons just pull you into pocket dimensions at will? I don't remember that from comics.

3 episodes left this season. Any thoughts on how it's going to go from here?

One thing though: I thought Donna Troy could fly. If so there's really no need for her to walk across the Gotham center point with the two soldiers.

I also thought Bruce Wayne was back in Gotham when he attempted to commit suicide and she showed up to save him.

I guess I misconstrued some stuff from the previous episode.

 

[thribs]

One thing though: I thought Donna Troy could fly. If so there's really no need for her to walk across the Gotham center point with the two soldiers.

I also thought Bruce Wayne was back in Gotham when he attempted to commit suicide and she showed up to save him.

I guess I misconstrued some stuff from the previous episode.

Looked like he was in Scotland in the previous episode