Times Of War & Starfleet's Mandate(s)

[Thomas_Sullivan]

I've been working on my first "Star Trek" universe roleplaying campaign, which is set in 2376, and a question came up that I haven't been able to satisfactorily answer with my independent internet research. During the Dominion War (2373 - 2375), Starfleet rallied an impressive amount of starships for the various missions and engagements they undertook (scouting missions, cutting off supply lines, direct combat, etc.), as one would expect, but were there any scientific or exploration missions being undertaken during this time, or did they commit every resource they could to the campaign against the Founders and their allies?

If there are specific episodes/storylines anyone knows of, I would appreciate being reminded of them, but I'm always happy to hear speculation as to what you believe they were doing during that time as well (whether based on direct implication from the series or just general thoughts and ruminations.)

Thanks in advance.
Tom

 

[amp]

Insurrection is set during the Dominion War. The Ent-E is not directly involved in the conflict and at the beginning of the movie they are on an unrelated diplomatic mission.

 

[Timo]

Or then INS is set after the Dominion War.

The Federation is working together with de facto Dominion members there, and negotiating with the Dominion. The heroes aren't merely on an unrelated mission - they plan on staying on unrelated missions forever, including stranding their starship on orbit of an archaeological dig for "seasons". They never mention any ongoing war. And even Worf's mission is unrelated to fighting, and merely involves bolstering the bulwarks - the same thing Picard is doing with drafting new members, both of these being common postwar activities ITRW.

Since there is no timestamp on the episode, all we have to go by is that Worf is at liberty to join the fray. Might be he's not yet the Ambassador. Might be he is no longer the Ambassador. Might be he never was - he may have sobered up just in time not to board the shuttle.

Sisko in "Meridian" claims in his log that his mission to Gamma is a scientific one despite the bellicose atmosphere, but he's really principally tasked with aggressive recce, right up until the start of open warfare. We hear of no "science" missions conducted by non-warships at the time...

Of course, aborting a mission of exploration and diverting the assets to fighting isn't easy. It might take years for some ships to return home and attend the war; possibly this is the very reason Starfleet delayed its response, and looked the other way when the Dominion poured assets to Alpha. For all we know, at least dozens of ships were never recalled because Starfleet felt the war would be over by Christmas, every Christmas, and there would be no point.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[amp]

Or then INS is set after the Dominion War.

Interesting. The synopsis on Memory Alpha begins with...

As the Dominion War ravages the Alpha Quadrant, an idyllic planet in the middle of an unstable region within Federation space serves as home to the peaceful Ba'ku...

But, I just checked the script and you may be right. There's nothing that explicitly says that the war is still underway.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The episode "One Little Ship" was technically a scientific mission (even if it had military implications).

 

[Timo]

It is also likely that Starfleet would launch a development project for wonder weapons, just like it did in the 2250s, and would dedicate starship resources to that one, even if it meant the ships would not be fighting Dominion assets directly. Perhaps both M5 and the Spore Drive were once again reinvented, and once again went haywire so badly that their contribution to the war effort was essentially zero and they were un-invented quickly afterwards...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[arch101]

INS is set during the war as It’s mentioned that the Sona are involved in Ketracel White production, a fact that would be irrelevant after the war was over. Dougherty also pleads with Picard that the planets healing energies would help in the war effort.
The Ent doesn’t seem to be directly involved in any sort of military mission in the film.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In Sound of Her Voice it’s implied there are ships totally out of communication range on deep exploration missions.

Also there are fallback defense lines probably able to focus on research until they are needed.

 

[Thomas_Sullivan]

In Sound of Her Voice it’s implied there are ships totally out of communication range on deep exploration missions.

"The Sound Of Her Voice" is a great episode. The Olympia had been deployed on an eight year survey mission in the Beta Quadrant, and crashed three years or so before the Defiant found it in 2374, which means they were deployed in about 2363, a little earlier than the timeframe I'm hoping for.

I imagine there are a fair amount of ships deployed on long term exploration missions that were too far away to return in a timeframe measuring less than years. Some of these may indeed be beyond (at least convenient) communications range.

It seems clear Starfleet either couldn't contact all these vessels or didn't make an effort to do so in order to request their return for the war effort because the crew of the Defiant were not disbelieving that Lisa Cusack was unaware of the events of the last few years.

The basic idea that I'm trying to set up is that a Starfleet science vessel, working name U.S.S. Rhapsody, was deployed on a survey mission in 2374, during which time Starfleet lost contact with the starship (early 2375, setting my campaign in 2376.)

I'm hoping for some confirmation (or speculation) that Starfleet hadn't completely abandoned their mission statement(s) of exploration and scientific discovery during this time, and that it isn't an impossible idea that they would have scientific survey vessels active and exploration missions occurring when they were actively involved with wartime activities.

To be clear, I don't mean diverting vessels like Defiant or Enterprise, which clearly have too much wartime value, for exploration and discovery, but smaller, purpose built starships. I envision the Rhapsody as something similar in design (functionally, not aesthetically) to a 24th century Oberth Class -- a starship with a variable science based mission profile, easily modified, and able to be run with a small crew.

Also there are fallback defense lines probably able to focus on research until they are needed.

Do you think the starships in these fallback defense lines would be situated in one location (like a starbase or planet), waiting to be needed? Or do you think they would more likely simply be situated in systems where there were defensive fallback positions, so that they can arrive at a defensive line quickly if needed?

The episode "One Little Ship" was technically a scientific mission (even if it had military implications).

It is also likely that Starfleet would launch a development project for wonder weapons, just like it did in the 2250s, and would dedicate starship resources to that one, even if it meant the ships would not be fighting Dominion assets directly.

This isn't along the lines of what I was thinking originally, in terms of the scientific mission of the Rhapsody, but it could work if I can't find evidence or educated speculation of the sort of ship deployment I was hoping to. It could be that the survey/exploration mission she was tasked to had hopes of finding something of use to the war effort. I would prefer to divorce the two as much as I can, but it could work.

Worf's mission is unrelated to fighting, and merely involves bolstering the bulwarks - the same thing Picard is doing with drafting new members, both of these being common postwar activities ITRW.

I hadn't considered this at all. Do we have any indication, or do you suppose, that there might have been starships tasked with bringing new worlds into the Federation, or at the least into the Alliance against the Dominion, during the war? Or does that seem manipulative, like the Federation would be selfishly endangering other worlds?

Sisko in "Meridian" claims in his log that his mission to Gamma is a scientific one despite the bellicose atmosphere, but he's really principally tasked with aggressive recce, right up until the start of open warfare. We hear of no "science" missions conducted by non-warships at the time...

"Meridian" is a fantastic episode that I wasn't considering. To refresh my memory, I did pull up the script and give the beginning a go through. It definitely indicates that there may have still been scientific missions occurring, at least in 2371, when that particular incident occurs.

It is post the station's discovery of the Dominion, even if it is before all out war, so it might be useful in extrapolating Starfleet's overall attitude during the war.

Commander Sisko: Despite the continuing threat posed by the Dominion, I've convinced Starfleet that we must continue our exploration of the Gamma Quadrant.

Based on Sisko's wording (that HE convinced STARFLEET, not the other way around), it seems that Starfleet was hesitant to explore the Gamma Quadrant during this time, but surely this was only because of the danger of encountering Dominion forces and wouldn't apply to other regions of space outside their sphere of influence, right?

I suppose the question that remains is "What was Sisko's motivation, and what was Starfleet's motivation in consenting? Was it tactical, scientific, or a bit of both?"

-- Tom

 

[Timo]

Overall, I might go as far as argue that Sisko is making dishonest logs in order to give Starfleet deniability in its war preparations. Sisko's logs often suggest he is making personal decisions over the fate of the galaxy, such as in "Call to Arms" where he singlehandedly ignites the Dominion War by refusing to halt the minelaying and engage in negotiations that would give the Dominion the ultimate advantage. However, in some cases it's clear that Sisko is just a small cog in the big wheels: say, Sisko's "Call to Arms" decision and timing is revealed to be part of a carefully orchestrated plan that involves thousands of starships striking at faraway targets at just the crucial hour, an hour dependent on the minute when Sisko chooses to utter his words of defiance.

INS is set during the war as It’s mentioned that the Sona are involved in Ketracel White production, a fact that would be irrelevant after the war was over.

I'd see this from the exact opposite angle. The Federation would not cooperate with a nation that is engaged in building V2 rockets for the Nazis while the Nazis are raining those rockets on London or Antwerp. Rather, those willing to share their rocket knowhow would be quickly captured and perhaps killed for the threat they pose. After the war, the situation would flip, and the rocket experts would receive lucrative deals.

Dougherty also pleads with Picard that the planets healing energies would help in the war effort.

No, there is no mention of any war effort. Or, indeed, any utterance of the word "war", which is telling.

If anything, the Dominion threat is spoken of in the past tense. Rua'fo says that within the past two years, the Borg, the Cardassians and the Dominion have challenged the UFP. In statements like this, he would pick his arbitrary-sounding time interval so that he could squeeze in his desired number of challengers, and ignore e.g. the fact that the Cardassians were making challenges decades earlier already. Conveniently, the Dominion War was a two-year event, during which there also were Cardassian and Borg challenges to the UFP. But if the war were ongoing, Rua'fo could say "within the past year" instead, thus including the ST:FC Borg challenge.

The Ent doesn’t seem to be directly involved in any sort of military mission in the film.

And this is the telling point. Our "heroes" should be shot for their cowardice and treason: not only are they unwilling to even mention the "ongoing war", but they hog a major starship on irrelevant errands when they could instead hand that over to somebody willing to fight and fly to their hobby projects in an Oberth.

Sure, Starfleet might continue both diplomacy and archaeology during the big fight, and might even do that with Jean-Luc Picard and members of his classic team. But not with a Sovereign class ship.

(The same applies to ST:FC, sort of: if Starfleet is willing to exclude the E-E from fighting the Borg, this can't be merely because they distrust Picard, because then they would simply assign Picard to an Oberth. They must distrust the E-E as well, which is understandable because she's still undergoing a shakedown. The Hood in WWII was sunk partly because her partner Prince of Wales was a piece of crap still working through her own shakedown and incapable of using her main armament as intended, even though ships of that type were fine as such and would eventually serve well after their respective shakedowns.)

I digress, but for a good cause: real world navies have all sorts of reasons to keep certain ships out of the fight. Yet back in the era of WWI, they did not: the doctrine of Mahan clearly stated that holding ships in reserve was the losing move, and the side that put the most guns out there, including feeble guns from secondary ships, was the automatic winner. Fights in Trek are of the WWI type, with feeble ships and their feeble phasers clearly contributing in the point blank melees...

For the stories to work, we can simply go farther back. Mahan would have been correct to defend his doctrine even back in the day of sailing ships, but in practice it would have been impossible for all ships to attend all fights; "being in reserve" was a matter of fact dictated by the shortcomings of propulsion. And James "Hornblower" Kirk is as handicapped across the vast distances of space as the skippers of sailing frigates and sloops of old...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Thomas_Sullivan]

I might go as far as argue that Sisko is making dishonest logs in order to give Starfleet deniability in its war preparations.

I might argue that interpretation if we were talking about any of our other commanding officer heroes, but that sort of thinking is in line with what we see from Sisko, especially as the war seems to become an inevitability.

Do you think then that Starfleet's motivations in resuming a cautious push into the Gamma Quadrant were more tactical in nature than scientific, or an equal mixture of the two? We see in "Meridian" that the Defiant appears to be maintaining long range observation only, running sensor sweeps but not visiting the planets in question.

BASHIR: I've run a preliminary analysis of our sensor sweeps, and the second planet in the Kylata system is definitely M-class.
DAX: I wish we'd had time to beam down to the surface and take a closer look.
O'BRIEN: I'd hate to have run into a Jem'Hadar patrol while we were down there picking flowers.
SISKO: Fortunately there's no sign of any Dominion activity in this sector.

Their caution is obviously because of the threat of Dominion interference, though no enemy activity has been detected in the sector of space they are exploring. This implies that their exploration mission is not a normal Starfleet science excursion, but more akin to a scouting mission in-and-out behind enemy lines (something supported by Dax's wording when she says "I wish we'd had TIME to beam down to the surface.")

If that's the case, however, does that mean the mission was purely tactical in nature, only undertaken in hopes of gaining an advantage against the Dominion? Or can we only infer from that that Starfleet (and Sisko) acknowledge that this normal scientific survey cannot proceed as normal BECAUSE of the Dominion threat?

After all, once their sensors detect a sufficiently interesting gravimetric distortion in a nearby system, they are quick to investigate at close range.

DAX: I'm picking up very unusual gravimetric distortions in the Trialus system.
SISKO: Any idea what's causing them?
DAX: It's hard to tell at this range.
SISKO: Let's take a closer look.

After discovering that this phenomenon is coming not from Trialus' star, but from a planet which materializes out of apparent nothingness, they don't hesitate for a moment to beam down to its surface to share a friendly meal with its inhabitants.

Of course, we come around to the same question, whose answer can be interpreted multiple ways. Does their reaction here indicate their entire excursion was scientifically oriented? Does it indicate that Sisko hopes this planet's secret could be of some tactical use? Or does it mean that, despite the original mandate of their mission being tactical, their scientific curiosity simply got the better of them?

I'd see this from the exact opposite angle. The Federation would not cooperate with a nation that is engaged in building V2 rockets for the Nazis while the Nazis are raining those rockets on London or Antwerp...After the war, the situation would flip, and the rocket experts would receive lucrative deals.

Though we only know that Insurrection takes place in 2375, and not whether its events take place before or after the war, I have to agree with your interpretation here. Just the same, I reviewed the script to confirm this take on the events of Insurrection, and there are several points which support it.

PERIM: Command wants to know our ETA at the Goren system.
PICARD: The Goren system?
RIKER: They need us to mediate some territorial dispute.
PICARD: Oh no! We can't delay the archaeological expedition to Hanoran Two. That'll put us right in the middle of monsoon season.

Picard may have been sidelined with less important duties in First Contact due to the Sovereign starship being relatively untested and factory new (combined, perhaps, with a lack of surety in Picard himself when it came to the influence of the Borg), but he still expressed a desire to be where he could make a difference and protect the lives of Federation citizens. Here, assigned diplomatic duties, his concern is not for the Starfleet officers who might be losing their lives (as they would be if the war were still on), but for the unfavorable conditions it will cause when he gets to the archaeological dig on Hanoran II late.

This is telling, in and of itself, but Riker than goes on to provide absolute proof that the Dominion War has recently ended.

RIKER: The diplomatic corps is busy with Dominion negotiations.
PICARD: Oh, so they need us to put out one more brush fire. Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?

Riker states in no uncertain terms that Starfleet is negotiating peace with the Dominion, which could only mean the war has ended. And Jean-Luc confirms this a few moments later when he refers to the losses suffered in the Dominion War in the past tense.

PICARD: In view of our losses to the Borg and the Dominion, the Council feels we need all the allies we can get these days.

The Son'a were mentioned once on Deep Space Nine, in the episode "Penumbra," in a conversation between Damar and Weyoun.

DAMAR: The Defiant is returning to Federation space. I'm ordering our ships to pursue.
WEYOUN: No. Divert them to the So'na outpost on Devos Two.
DAMAR: Why?
WEYOUN: We need their to help protect the new Ketracel white facility. The Federation has been made aware of its location.

This episode aired for the first time approximately four months after Insurrection was released in theaters, which is the only indication I can find that the war might have been intended to be ongoing during the film. Everything in the film itself, however, indicates that the war must have just ended, that what we see is the aftermath of a devastating conflict, one from which the Federation is still attempting to recover (leading to the uncharacteristic behavior from Admiral Dougherty and his cohorts.)

I have to assume that this was just a matter of poor timing. The events of the film itself do not support an ongoing war, and the only thing which does are the respective release dates of each story. That is not enough, in my opinion, to ignore everything implied by the actual production.

 

[Timo]

....does that mean the mission was purely tactical in nature, only undertaken in hopes of gaining an advantage against the Dominion? Or can we only infer from that that Starfleet (and Sisko) acknowledge that this normal scientific survey cannot proceed as normal BECAUSE of the Dominion threat?

Starfleet out of all players might be indoctrinated to think that any scientific discovery is a tactical gain, and tactics should be geared towards making scientific discoveries. While the risk-benefit ratios would be different before the discovery of the Dominion threat, after it but before the war, and during the war, the same thinking might apply. In "The Ship", the heroes operate more vulnerable assets during a time of even greater risk in order to study an unlikely war-winner, a mineral resource in a tactically nightmarish location; all the Gamma exploration could be seen in the same context, of catching whatever butterflies flutter by in the hopes that they will one day save lives and win wars.

I guess the context here is that even the threat or presence of war does not actually affect Starfleet: all ships individually, and the fleet as a whole, always defy rules (of others), limitations and odds in pursuit of discoveries. It's just that the defiance goes up a notch, not down, when the Federation is under threat. Sisko's log thus might reflect his Starfleet education, in that he is professionally expected to cast a personal vote for risky exploration at every turn, including this one.

Picard may have been sidelined with less important duties in First Contact due to the Sovereign starship being relatively untested and factory new (combined, perhaps, with a lack of surety in Picard himself when it came to the influence of the Borg), but he still expressed a desire to be where he could make a difference and protect the lives of Federation citizens. Here, assigned diplomatic duties, his concern is not for the Starfleet officers who might be losing their lives (as they would be if the war were still on), but for the unfavorable conditions it will cause when he gets to the archaeological dig on Hanoran II late.

And it would be difficult to accuse him of anything in a postwar setting, but even more difficult to argue that some sort of character development between the two movies would have made Picard more callous towards this life-protecting business, and likely to ignore the UFP plight during an ongoing war. Yes, he might have taken part in the war and grown cynical or cowardly; or he might have been told in no unclear terms to keep his distance from the battlefields because he was no longer trusted, and grown cynical because of that. But we see little reason to believe in such things in either this movie or the next one, much less in his titular TV show. Yes, he may be accumulating bad karma with his constant rebellions and betrayals, and this may contribute to his frequent and increasingly severe sidelinings that culminate in his TV show fiasco. But in ST:INS, he isn't there yet.

Riker states in no uncertain terms that Starfleet is negotiating peace with the Dominion, which could only mean the war has ended.

...That is, in this specific context it can only mean this. One might negotiate with most enemies during a war in hopes of ending it. But "Statistical Probabilites" would have put an end to that here, because the Feds would know the Dominion can't be trusted (but might still idealistically try), and the Dominion would know the Feds know and would no longer bother.

And Jean-Luc confirms this a few moments later when he refers to the losses suffered in the Dominion War in the past tense.

Or perhaps in terms of "so far"; losses to the Borg would also be a thing Picard can predict to not be over yet. But AFAWK, nobody lost any civilians to the Borg recently, so Picard is talking about losses in the sense of Starfleet having fewer warships now; the allies would then bolster the thinning ranks, which would be necessary both during and after the war.

I have to assume that this was just a matter of poor timing. The events of the film itself do not support an ongoing war, and the only thing which does are the respective release dates of each story. That is not enough, in my opinion, to ignore everything implied by the actual production.

If we want to think in terms outside the fictional universe, we might accept that the makers of ST:INS would be careful not to burden the movie with references to events the random moviegoer would not be aware of, such as the war. But the very successful effort to completely omit such references does result in a movie that actually denies the existence of an ongoing war, even without a remark to this effect...

We could always argue the opposite and say that the war went unmentioned for reasons X and Y. My worry there is that it casts our heroes in a bad light, when they ought to be all gung-ho about the fighting for the good cause, or at least resentful about the ongoing mayhem.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[valkyrie013]

Well, lets take travel times, Somewhat on average is that max cruise speed is 3 light years per day ( as compared to 1 light year per day for Enterprise Nx) So if you are 100 ly away, it'll take a month to get back. Now if you a 1000 light years away, that'll take 10 months of straight warp. Something similar happened in Enterprise when it was recalled after the Xindi attack, and then the turn around and some more months to get to xindi space. But the Nx was the only ship able to go out. If the Columbia was ready, they would have sent that ship out, and had the Enterprise still explore and meet people because it was months away, possibly on the other side of Earth from where they need to be.
So during the dominion war you would have ships that are quite far away, 100's of Ly away, and primarily science ships with no real weapons capability. So Yes, there are still science and explorations going on, just not in the war area's

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Great leaps in technology are made due to wartime necessity, so Starfleet would be carrying out scientific research and engineering R&D throughout the war, though its doubtful that ships would be sent out on long-term survey missions or research projects that couldn't be put to use in the conflict. Science ships might be tasked for recon missions, act as couriers, maybe relief ships to help with refugee resettlement, etc, but I suspect their crews would be scaled back.

Any planned exploratory missions would also be halted, with ones due to return shortly being recalled early, though others may be months and even years away. You then have the other assets that Starfleet needs to maintain, such as building up its support base with new alliances or even new member worlds, defending supply convoys bringing in materials crucial to the war, protecting its borders from other hostiles (the Romulans, Tholians, etc signed non-aggression pacts with the Dominion, nothings stopping them from attacking the Federation). With most of their resources focused on the frontlines they wouldn't have the ships to spare in large scale, so may have fewer, though more powerful ships handing the duties previously covered by several (such as the E-E, I also suspect this is what the Sovereign was up to as well as all the Ambassador-Class ships in service). But that's just the way I always look at fleet deployment in the war.

 

[Thomas_Sullivan]

Well, lets take travel times, Somewhat on average is that max cruise speed is 3 light years per day ( as compared to 1 light year per day for Enterprise NX.) So if you are 100 ly away, it'll take a month to get back. Now if you a 1000 light years away, that'll take 10 months of straight warp...So during the dominion war you would have ships that are quite far away, 100's of Ly away, and primarily science ships with no real weapons capability. So Yes, there are still science and explorations going on, just not in the war area's

I can't fault any of your reasoning. As I discussed above, the episode "The Sound of Her Voice" does support this, even suggesting that there are ships that might be beyond convenient communications range. The crew of the Defiant is not in the least disbelieving that Lisa Cusack, who has been conducting an eight year exploration of the Beta Quadrant aboard the Olympia, has not heard news of the Dominion or any other events for the last several years, after all.

While the Olympia's mission certainly provided us with indications that there must be exploratory vessels beyond the common reaches of subspace radio during the war, what my story requires is a more recently deployed science vessel, one that has been sent on a mission in 2374 into 2375 (at which point Starfleet lost contact with it.) This is what I was hoping for some indication or confirmation of -- new exploratory missions being undertaken.

Speaking of Olympia twice in as many days does have me thinking about a slightly different approach to this problem, however. Cusack's starship was on an eight year exploration of unknown (or little known) space. Is there any reason to suppose that, upon finding the captain and the remains of her vessel, that Sisko wouldn't have attempted to retrieve as much information from the damaged ship's computer as possible, so that he could forward it to Starfleet to be analyzed?

If he did, would it be logical to presume that Starfleet would have then dispatched a science vessel to investigate and confirm anything interesting they may have found in the (in all likelihood) patchwork records from the Olympia?

Or, on the other hand, does it seem likely that Starfleet would dispatch a dedicated science vessel to study the planet Olympia crashed on and its atmosphere's very unusual properties, or to recover the data from Olympia's database if Sisko did not?

Starfleet out of all players might be indoctrinated to think that any scientific discovery is a tactical gain, and tactics should be geared towards making scientific discoveries. While the risk-benefit ratios would be different before the discovery of the Dominion threat, after it but before the war, and during the war, the same thinking might apply.

I can agree that makes sense, and it certainly paints an image of Starfleet that fits with their general mandate and ideologies. They have always viewed scientific discovery as the means to resolve problems and overcome obstacles. It's why they've consistently had a leg up on even adversaries who are armed with better offensive technology than they are. Ex astris scientia (from the stars, knowledge) is the motto of Starfleet Academy for a reason.

All the Gamma exploration could be seen in the same context, of catching whatever butterflies flutter by in the hopes that they will one day save lives and win wars...I guess the context here is that even the threat or presence of war does not actually affect Starfleet: all ships individually, and the fleet as a whole, always defy rules (of others), limitations and odds in pursuit of discoveries. It's just that the defiance goes up a notch, not down, when the Federation is under threat. Sisko's log thus might reflect his Starfleet education, in that he is professionally expected to cast a personal vote for risky exploration at every turn, including this one.

I like this interpretation and it is easy to find evidence that it is consistent with their general behavior, both in times of conflict and in times of peace. The idea that hardship doesn't change the basic principles of Starfleet, but rather causes it to double down on its own beliefs, is certainly an underlying theme that the writers and producers were attempting to explore in Voyager, and one that is consistent with even The Original Series, despite its occasionally somewhat more militaristic attitude.

And it would be difficult to accuse him of anything in a postwar setting, but even more difficult to argue that some sort of character development between the two movies would have made Picard more callous towards this life-protecting business, and likely to ignore the UFP plight during an ongoing war.

It does seem like Occam's Razor would apply in this particular case. It takes a lot more assumption to imagine that Picard has had some dramatic character growth between films that made him exponentially more callous.

Or perhaps in terms of "so far"; losses to the Borg would also be a thing Picard can predict to not be over yet. But AFAWK, nobody lost any civilians to the Borg recently, so Picard is talking about losses in the sense of Starfleet having fewer warships now; the allies would then bolster the thinning ranks, which would be necessary both during and after the war.

Fair enough. I can agree with that. It doesn't necessitate that the war be over. I think it does carry the implication, of course, especially when taken with the other evidence throughout the script.

If we want to think in terms outside the fictional universe, we might accept that the makers of ST:INS would be careful not to burden the movie with references to events the random moviegoer would not be aware of, such as the war. But the very successful effort to completely omit such references does result in a movie that actually denies the existence of an ongoing war, even without a remark to this effect...

We could always argue the opposite and say that the war went unmentioned for reasons X and Y. My worry there is that it casts our heroes in a bad light, when they ought to be all gung-ho about the fighting for the good cause, or at least resentful about the ongoing mayhem.

There certainly can be various real world explanations for the way that a film (or any sort of entertainment) turns out, from plot considerations to audience reactions and even budgetary concerns, but I find it best to (with rare exception) ignore those explanations as to how the fictional setting ended up being created the way it was in deference to accepting the fictional universe as it is presented to me.

For example, I would argue that Batman doesn't swear (aside from words that are contentious to some but which I don't consider curses, such as hell and damn), nor does he kill (no one bring up the travesty of film adaptions in which he does, please, as they are not representative of Batman as a character.) One might point out that these both started off as editorial mandates designed to make the character more acceptable to parents and more appropriate for all ages audiences. I wouldn't disagree with that particularly, but regardless of that real world explanation, the fictional setting as presented to us for 80 years establishes both those facts as a part of his character. I defer to the consistent (an important point) reality presented by the fiction rather than the reasons it was written and published that way.

I take the same approach to Insurrection, especially given that (as you point out yourself) justifying their behavior with assumptions of our own simply serves to paint the crew of the Enterprise in a shockingly bad way that is opposed to their consistent characterizations from past films and episodes.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Sure, Starfleet might continue both diplomacy and archaeology during the big fight, and might even do that with Jean-Luc Picard and members of his classic team. But not with a Sovereign class ship.

Maybe they were trying to save the best of Starfleet in case the war was lost like Pikes crew

 

[Timo]

...I gather the big mystery there, war or no war, is why Data was sent to the mission he eventually brought down.

Dougherty and Rua'fo would have had little reason to ask for him. OTOH, they might have considered him the least harmful of outsiders, what with him being a simpleton automaton (but they really wouldn't have read his dossier, then!). Would a wartime Starfleet want to send Data to Ba'ku more than a peacetime one? Perhaps to get the uptight superman off their hair while they contemplated genocidal ways of winning? Perhaps to make sure that their war-winning project at Ba'ku would be supervised by a superior moralizer?

The rest of the team and their ship didn't really appear to be put out of the harm's way: their path coincided with that of Worf, who was fortifying a position, so apparently Starfleet expected fighting right there, too. That week, or in the next fifty years when the Dominion reinforcements arrived from Gamma via conventional means? Hard to tell. But the E-E was neither in mothballs nor in a rubber-lined safe buried in a vault.

The "Pike rationale" might not warrant getting a headache over... It could always have been an insincere attempt at placating Pike, while all the participants in the discussion well understood that Pike had been left out of the fight because nobody wanted him in there. "The man with his head still in Talosian clouds"; "The guy who comes up with the nonviolent solution"; "That Pike? The one who couldn't defeat a guy with a bronze sword?". Or indeed "The CO of that century-old tub that only still warps because she's been refitted 47 times".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Honestly I figure Star Trek: Insurrection took place after the Dominion War ended. Nothing in the film requires it to be set during the war; the line about the Diplomatic Corps being busy with "Dominion negotiations" makes perfect sense as a post-war situation, since there would necessarily need to be further negotiations about a final peace treaty; and Worf seems to just have shown up to say hi to his friends, which I don't think he could have done during the war. I figure he was there to have a quick visit with them before his discharge from Starfleet took effect, and then got swept up in the crisis at hand.

 

[Thomas_Sullivan]

...I gather the big mystery there, war or no war, is why Data was sent to the mission he eventually brought down.

That's actually a good question I don't think I've ever really considered in all the times I've watched Insurrection. I've just taken it for granted that Data was a Starfleet officer carrying out his temporary assigned duty posting and not thought too much more about it.

Perhaps they believed that, as an android, he would not only be suitably skilled (an expert in science, engineering, and command studies) and intelligent enough to be helpful in any eventually, but also be pragmatic and serve the interests of the Federation without allowing moral or emotional concerns to interfere with his duty (as they saw it.) If so, as you pointed out, they severely misunderstood and underestimated him as an individual due to the misleading nature of his robotic physiology.

A question here that might help us speculate as to their thinking is "How much does the rest of Starfleet know about Data and his ethical subroutines, emotion chip, and individuality?"

-- Tom

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Fighting a war and Starfleet discovers a world that has the near magical ability to heal wounds and prolong life by centuries, since they don't have access to JJTrek's Khan blood then they need something to cure death for the officers and crew they send in to fight against the vastly superior forces of the Dominion.