Timeline question

[Solarbaby]

Where does Insurrection come in DS9 and Voy series timeline? I wikied it and can't find a stardate. I'm writing a fan fic and wanted to use the Admiral from Insurrection because he is corrupt. However my story is set a few months after Starfleet takes DS9 back from the Dominion. I need to make sure he's around then.

Can anyone help pls x

 

[Solarbaby]

Actually I just found out after I posted this question. Here's a good link for the timeline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Star_Trek

 

[BillJ]

Actually I just found out after I posted this question. Here's a good link for the timeline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Star_Trek

Where do you get the idea he is corrupt?

 

[Solarbaby]

Actually I just found out after I posted this question. Here's a good link for the timeline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Star_Trek

Where do you get the idea he is corrupt?

From watching the film. The writers want the audience tothink Picard was right and Docherty was wrong. He did some questionable things. I've not watched the film for years because it sucks. I just wanted to use a canon character who fit into the part of someone who do questionable things for the greater good. Maybe corrupt wasn't the right word but he certainly was no saint.

 

[BillJ]

Actually I just found out after I posted this question. Here's a good link for the timeline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Star_Trek

Where do you get the idea he is corrupt?

From watching the film. The writers want the audience tothink Picard was right and Docherty was wrong. He did some questionable things. I've not watched the film for years because it sucks. I just wanted to use a canon character who fit into the part of someone who do questionable things for the greater good. Maybe corrupt wasn't the right word but he certainly was no saint.

Don't forget he was working under orders from the Federation Council...

PICARD: I won't let you move them, Admiral. I will take this to the Federation Council.
DOUGHERTY: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Just because Dougherty said he was acting under Council orders doesn't mean he actually was.

And when was the last time Anthony Zerbe played a good guy?

I'm going with the novel explanation, myself:

Spoiler: novels

Dougherty was Section 31 all along. It seemed like the classic S31-type operation anyway.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I really wished Insurrection had been the first part of a trilogy or duology about something rotten going on in the highest levels of both Starfleet and the Federation, either as a result of the Dominion War or due to a some faction that was secretly using the Dominion War as an excuse to do something more sinister within the Federation...

 

[T'Girl]

Where do you get the idea he is corrupt?

From watching the film. The writers want the audience tothink Picard was right and Docherty was wrong. He did some questionable things. I've not watched the film for years because it sucks. I just wanted to use a canon character who fit into the part of someone who do questionable things for the greater good. Maybe corrupt wasn't the right word but he certainly was no saint.

Don't forget he was working under orders from the Federation Council...

PICARD: I won't let you move them, Admiral. I will take this to the Federation Council.
DOUGHERTY: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.

The misunderstanding might be coming from the fact that the Son'a are definitely corrupt and Dougherty is working with them. I don't think Dougherty is corrupt because I can see things from his point of view. His intent is to remove a small number of non-indigenous people (the Ba'Ku) from their non-home world and use the planet's resources to medically help hundreds of billions of people throughout the galaxy. It is Dougherty's, not Picard's, actions in the story that are the most sympathetic.

The Son'a are a different story, a large part of their actions are aimed at hurting the Ba'Ku (their ancestors). It's made very clear in the story that the Son'a are a profoundly corrupt people. Dougherty, a good man, is doing business with the devil.

Actual one of the few things I liked about INS is it's depiction of Dougherty, it would have been easy and simplistic to have him be this evil character and the writers didn't.

 

[Tharsis]

I think you guys are forgetting that he went along with the S'ona order to destroy the Enterprise as it tried to get out of the Briar Patch to send a signal ("to put a face on what is happening here"). I think that constitutes a corrupt admiral.

 

[toughlittleship]

I'd be inclined to place Insurrection between "It's Only a Paper Moon" (Worf's only scene is welcoming Nog back to DS9) and "Field of Fire". "Prodigal Daughter" and "The Emperor's New Cloak" are in between and Worf isn't in them.

 

[BillJ]

I think you guys are forgetting that he went along with the S'ona order to destroy the Enterprise as it tried to get out of the Briar Patch to send a signal ("to put a face on what is happening here"). I think that constitutes a corrupt admiral.

I would still argue that at this point he's weighing the "needs of the many" vs. the "needs of the few", because you really can't argue Ru'alfo's logic.

 

[Solarbaby]

Wow. I'm glad this thread went this way as the more I read your thoughts on Dougherty the more I like the character.

When I said corrupt I meant someone prepared to go against starfleet ideals to get a job done for the greater good. E.g. Section31 are corrupt. They break the law just by existing not to mention their actions.
I wonder what happened to the federation council members after the plan was foiled and exposed by Picard. I'm sure they'd have to be removed from the Council or else picard's crew would be court marshalled for insurrection which we know didn't happen

 

[Timo]

Do we? There's a big gap between INS and NEM, and our heroes haven't received any promotions or career-furthering transfers during that gap... The A Time To... novels indeed suggest their careers stalled big time at that point - although this is due to a subplot introduced in that novel series, not due to the INS events.

As for Dougherty "going against Starfleet ideals", well, that's what all our hero captains usually do, too. Regulations (the written form of Starfleet ideals) tell them to do one thing, but they see the greater good and do something else. Probably the biggest difference is that our heroes tend to be proactive once they get going; Dougherty was proactive at first, but became merely reactive once things began to go south.

I'd be inclined to place Insurrection between "It's Only a Paper Moon" (Worf's only scene is welcoming Nog back to DS9) and "Field of Fire". "Prodigal Daughter" and "The Emperor's New Cloak" are in between and Worf isn't in them

That's my Option B, too. Option A is placing the movie after the entire DS9 series. After all, it very much seems the war is over: there are negotiations going on, our heroes are doing decidedly un-warlike stuff and never even mentioning anything war-related, other Starfleet assets are doing un-warlike stuff as well, and Worf is free to wander. Plus, Starfleet now cooperates with the Son'a, who fought for the enemy during the war, even if in a minor side show.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Wow. I'm glad this thread went this way as the more I read your thoughts on Dougherty the more I like the character.

When I said corrupt I meant someone prepared to go against starfleet ideals to get a job done for the greater good. E.g. Section31 are corrupt. They break the law just by existing not to mention their actions.
I wonder what happened to the federation council members after the plan was foiled and exposed by Picard. I'm sure they'd have to be removed from the Council or else picard's crew would be court marshalled for insurrection which we know didn't happen

Such a bad movie... but the moral/ethical view it puts forward is certainly interesting.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think you guys are forgetting that he went along with the S'ona order to destroy the Enterprise as it tried to get out of the Briar Patch to send a signal ("to put a face on what is happening here"). I think that constitutes a corrupt admiral.

I would still argue that at this point he's weighing the "needs of the many" vs. the "needs of the few", because you really can't argue Ru'alfo's logic.

Ru'afo was a villain whose sole motivation was to hurt the Ba'ku. I can argue his logic all I want.

As for Dougherty? *Maybe* you might be able to see his logic, but I don't. The Ba'ku's rights cannot be ignored, even though they're only a small portion of natives being moved vs. the total population of the Federation. That doesn't justify abusing the Ba'ku.

 

[BillJ]

I think you guys are forgetting that he went along with the S'ona order to destroy the Enterprise as it tried to get out of the Briar Patch to send a signal ("to put a face on what is happening here"). I think that constitutes a corrupt admiral.

I would still argue that at this point he's weighing the "needs of the many" vs. the "needs of the few", because you really can't argue Ru'alfo's logic.

Ru'afo was a villain whose sole motivation was to hurt the Ba'ku. I can argue his logic all I want.

As for Dougherty? *Maybe* you might be able to see his logic, but I don't. The Ba'ku's rights cannot be ignored, even though they're only a small portion of natives being moved vs. the total population of the Federation. That doesn't justify abusing the Ba'ku.

Of course Ru'afo is a villian, I kept waiting for him to rub his hands together and laugh maniacally.

But you can't refute his logic in regards to the Enterprise.

RU'AFO: Well, how badly do you want it, Admiral? Because there are hard choices to be made. Now! If the Enterprise gets through with news about their brave Captain's valiant struggle on behalf of the defenceless Ba'ku, your Federation politicians will waver, your Federation opinion polls will open a public debate, your Federation allies will want their say. ...Need I go on?

And the logic makes all the more sense with the fact that Picard has already refused to follow an Admiral's order to vacate the Briar Patch.

Picard had every right to lodge a formal protest after leaving the Briar Patch. But he is in violation of military law by refusing an Admiral's order.

Like it or not... Picard is in the wrong here. Not only is he violating orders (multiple times) he is defying the will of his government. This may have been a mission years in the planning stages, designed to have minimal impact on the Ba'ku.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ In this case, the Federation politicians SHOULD waver. The public debate Ru'afo so greatly feared SHOULD have opened up. The Federation's allies *deserve* their say.

As for the Admiral's order? Illegal. In clear violation of the Prime Directive. The Ba'ku may not have been native to that planet, but that's not the Federation's concern. How the Ba'ku got there is irrelevant. The simple fact is they *were* there, and no one had any right to remove them.

 

[BillJ]

^ In this case, the Federation politicians SHOULD waver. The public debate Ru'afo so greatly feared SHOULD have opened up. The Federation's allies *deserve* their say.

As for the Admiral's order? Illegal. In clear violation of the Prime Directive. The Ba'ku may not have been native to that planet, but that's not the Federation's concern. How the Ba'ku got there is irrelevant. The simple fact is they *were* there, and no one had any right to remove them.

DOUGHERTY (on viewscreen): We haven't fully identified the anomalies yet. They're calling this whole area the Briar Patch. It took us a day to reach a location where we could even get a signal to you. Just get me Data's schematics. I'll keep you informed. Dougherty out.

DOUGHERTY: All right. You have twelve hours, Captain. Then I want you out of the Briar Patch. In the meantime, we'll head out to the perimeter to call for Son'a reinforcements in case you fail.

DOUGHERTY (on console): You've done a terrific job, Jean-Luc. Now, pack your bags and get the hell out of there. How's Data?

So we have three different instances of Picard "ignoring" the chain-of-command before he even knows what's going on with the Ba'ku.

This is even before you get into the debate of whether moving the Ba'ku is right or wrong.

So the question is: Is Jean-Luc Picard allowed to ignore the chain-of-command because he is Jean-Luc Picard?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Clearly by the time we reach Insurrection: We are looking at an alternate time line. Troi forgets that she kissed Riker with a beard. Picard has no problem removing Native Americans from a planet, but yet has a problem in removing the Baku? In fact, the Picard from the series and the movies seem different, too. Picard in the movies is quick to kill his enemies. In the series: Picard went out of his way to save life (For example: Picard wanted to save the Silicon Avatar which essentially killed tons of lives).

 

[T'Girl]

they're only a small portion of natives

But they're not natives. The Ba'ku are a very small group of colonists (several hundred) inhabiting a single valley, on a planet that isn't their birth world. The only claim they have to the planet and the briar patch is the old "well we got here first."