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Time travel and the universe.

sojourner

Admiral
In Memoriam
OK, this may be more of a philosophical question, but I thought it might be interesting.

Using the explanation of time travel where changes to the timeline cause new branching timelines, what happens to the whole "energy cannot be created nor destroyed" thing? wouldn't this imply that each new branching timeline shortens the lifetime of the universe as a whole? IF taken to the extreme and viewed as branches being created with every decision point, wouldn't random number generators (which have become much more ubiquitous with the information age) be increasing the rate of new branches being created and thus increasing the rate at which the universe's age shortens?

Not sure I used the right terms for this, so hopefully you guys will get what I am trying to say.
 
First of all: If time-travel to past is possible (and it may be but only from the point the time machine was first turnd on) then people from the future have already been to the past, already have been there and are already here and the time we live in is a result of that interference. The idea being someone going back in time to stop JFK's murder, 9/11 or any other historical event actually causes it.

However, playing along.... There's already the "idea" that for every decision all possible outcomes occur in seperate timelines. The old "Schrodinger's Cat" idea. So, if you go back in time, change something, you don't "create another uinverse" out of matter that cannot exsist (due to conservation) you simply move into that already exists based on the idea everything that can happen does happen in concurent timelines where, it would be, it's possible to move between them simply by causing the changes needed to be in it.

So, you go back in time to kill your mother, you do so but you don't die and you don't cause a paradox that destroys the universe you simply are just now in a different universe where that woman wasn't your mother.

So, now, either in this universe you never existed so you're a "man without a past" and you're just now... here (thus "adding" matter to this universe and taking matter away fromn the Prime Universe). Or you do exist in this universe you just had a different mother (no matter exchanges between universes.)

But, IMHO, it's more likely that the time line cannot be changed because the time line as it now is is the product of any changes attempted. Which, of course, would say a lot about what free will really is.

Because, say for example you appear right now at your front door and tell yourself to get in the time machne, go back in time a couple minutes and give it to yourself. Since this event as occured you cannot say no!
 
Using the explanation of time travel where changes to the timeline cause new branching timelines, what happens to the whole "energy cannot be created nor destroyed" thing? wouldn't this imply that each new branching timeline shortens the lifetime of the universe as a whole?

Quantum physics says that the energy of each independent measurement history (i.e. alternate timeline) is proportional to its probability. The probabilities of all timelines, all possible states of the universe, add up to one (a property called unitarity). Different timelines are just different components of the overall wave equation that defines the universe, and have fractional probabilities (e.g. there's a 5% chance of this outcome, a 20% chance of that one, and so on). So the total universe has a constant energy, but it's continuously getting subdivided into narrower and narrower slices, as it were.

So nothing's being created or destroyed. When you split into two different timelines, you're not being physically duplicated; rather, the particles that make you up exist in a superposition of two or more quantum states that do not interact with each other and thus behave as independent universes.

However, we don't observe the energy draining out of our universe because, I think, it's measured differently from the perspective of an observer within a single timeline. If we (the selves that we can perceive) exist in a "slice" of the universe that's getting narrower and narrower, and the amount of energy our "slice" contains is decreasing in equal proportion, then we still see effectively the same amount of energy. To make a rough analogy, if you got 50% less massive, you'd need 50% less energy to move by the same amount. So in proportion, the energy is effectively the same. At least that's my best-guess explanation, and it's an analogy, so don't take it too literally.

IF taken to the extreme and viewed as branches being created with every decision point, wouldn't random number generators (which have become much more ubiquitous with the information age) be increasing the rate of new branches being created and thus increasing the rate at which the universe's age shortens?

Quantum-mechanical processes would theoretically be causing new timelines to come into being constantly anyway, without any human intervention. Random-number generators are just a macroscopic consequence of the quantum behavior of subatomic particles, just like everything else in the universe is. It's those subatomic particle states that bring about the divergence, and you'd get the same results regardless of whether they macroscopically added up to a random-number generator or a cheese sandwich.

Really, "decisions" have nothing to do with it. An electron doesn't decide whether to be spin-up or spin-down. It exists in a superposition of both states at once, and as it interacts with the universe around it, the particles it interacts with become correlated with those two respective states, and the result (according to the Everett interpretation) is two independently propagating sets of correlations, one associated with each of the two coexisting states, yet not interacting with each other so that they can be considered as separate histories.

Now, there's a relatively new idea, quantum Darwinism, saying that the different quantum states of a particle "compete" as they propagate outward into the environment (a particle's state propagates through interaction with other particles). Those states that are stable manage to propagate far and wide until they dominate the whole environment -- so that all observers would perceive the original particle in the same state -- while those states that are unstable just die out and become vacuum fluctuations, basically. This means that not every state of a particle would produce a whole separate timeline -- just the ones stable or probable enough to win the Darwinian "competition." This might mean that there's only one singular timeline after all, that all alternative possibilities get outcompeted. However, to continue the Darwinian analogy, it's possible for one species to spawn two or more successful offshoots, so it could be that sometimes more than one state is stable enough to endure, resulting in more than one timeline, but the number of timelines would be finite, rather than having every single particle interaction create whole new realities.

Strictly speaking, none of this has anything to do with time travel, though. Current theoretical models of time travel generally suggest that time travelers would be constrained to re-enact their original histories, rather than creating alternate branches. Alternate histories would be a spontaneous outgrowth of quantum states as discussed above.
 
It could be that the reality we experience is just the weighted average of all the quantum states. An illusion no different than the mis-perception that you are the same collection of particles you were 5 seconds ago. As such, time travel is futile, because you can never change a significant number of the practically infinite "universe-states."
 
It could be that the reality we experience is just the weighted average of all the quantum states. An illusion no different than the mis-perception that you are the same collection of particles you were 5 seconds ago. As such, time travel is futile, because you can never change a significant number of the practically infinite "universe-states."

That's an interesting and plausible notion. (Although I disagree with the implicit assumption that the only purpose for time travel would be to change history. Imagine the opportunities for studying history, evolution, etc.)
 
^Right. Let me rephrase that as "time travel as a tool for altering causality." If we're seeing all timelines at once, that makes travel into the past for research, sightseeing, or even visiting deceased family infinitely more practical as there is practically zero chance of meaningful interference.
 
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't understand why one traveling back in time would shorten the lifespan of the universe.

If we assume that there is a single timeline, and travling back (and doing something) alters that timeline, why would that cause the universe to last any shorter than it currently plans?
 
He's saying that travelling back in time, thus creating a new, branching universe would violate conservation of energy, which would then in turn shorten the lifespan of the universe. You didn't understand it because it's not true.
 
Using the explanation of time travel where changes to the timeline cause new branching timelines, what happens to the whole "energy cannot be created nor destroyed" thing? wouldn't this imply that each new branching timeline shortens the lifetime of the universe as a whole?

Quantum physics says that the energy of each independent measurement history (i.e. alternate timeline) is proportional to its probability. The probabilities of all timelines, all possible states of the universe, add up to one (a property called unitarity). Different timelines are just different components of the overall wave equation that defines the universe, and have fractional probabilities (e.g. there's a 5% chance of this outcome, a 20% chance of that one, and so on). So the total universe has a constant energy, but it's continuously getting subdivided into narrower and narrower slices, as it were.

So nothing's being created or destroyed. When you split into two different timelines, you're not being physically duplicated; rather, the particles that make you up exist in a superposition of two or more quantum states that do not interact with each other and thus behave as independent universes.

The problem is, as far as we can see, these 'slices' don't have less energy than the intital 'universe'; indeed, the slice we find ourselves in seems to have and retain the energy of this initial universe.

However, we don't observe the energy draining out of our universe because, I think, it's measured differently from the perspective of an observer within a single timeline. If we (the selves that we can perceive) exist in a "slice" of the universe that's getting narrower and narrower, and the amount of energy our "slice" contains is decreasing in equal proportion, then we still see effectively the same amount of energy. To make a rough analogy, if you got 50% less massive, you'd need 50% less energy to move by the same amount. So in proportion, the energy is effectively the same. At least that's my best-guess explanation, and it's an analogy, so don't take it too literally.
An interesting ideea.
But I have some problems with it.

For example, at the quantum level, everything is...quantised. There is an unit below which you can't divide.
This means you can't keep dividing something in ad infinitum; in the end, you'll each a state that can't be divided anymore. Considering the insane number of universes that should exist by now, this point should have been reached long ago.

Also - even if you can lower the energy uniformly, the laws of physics will still get messed up - with observable results.
Some relations between energies/interactions are proportional, some geometrical, some completely different, etc.

IF taken to the extreme and viewed as branch being created with every decision point, wouldn't random number generators (which have become much more ubiquitous with the information age) be increasing the rate of new branches being created and thus increasing the rate at which the universe's age shortens?
Quantum-mechanical processes would theoretically be causing new timelines to come into being constantly anyway, without any human intervention. Random-number generators are just a macroscopic consequence of the quantum behavior of subatomic particles, just like everything else in the universe is. It's those subatomic particle states that bring about the divergence, and you'd get the same results regardless of whether they macroscopically added up to a random-number generator or a cheese sandwich.

Really, "decisions" have nothing to do with it. An electron doesn't decide whether to be spin-up or spin-down. It exists in a superposition of both states at once, and as it interacts with the universe around it, the particles it interacts with become correlated with those two respective states, and the result (according to the Everett interpretation) is two independently propagating sets of correlations, one associated with each of the two coexisting states, yet not interacting with each other so that they can be considered as separate histories.

Now, there's a relatively new idea, quantum Darwinism, saying that the different quantum states of a particle "compete" as they propagate outward into the environment (a particle's state propagates through interaction with other particles). Those states that are stable manage to propagate far and wide until they dominate the whole environment -- so that all observers would perceive the original particle in the same state -- while those states that are unstable just die out and become vacuum fluctuations, basically. This means that not every state of a particle would produce a whole separate timeline -- just the ones stable or probable enough to win the Darwinian "competition." This might mean that there's only one singular timeline after all, that all alternative possibilities get outcompeted. However, to continue the Darwinian analogy, it's possible for one species to spawn two or more successful offshoots, so it could be that sometimes more than one state is stable enough to endure, resulting in more than one timeline, but the number of timelines would be finite, rather than having every single particle interaction create whole new realities.
It should be pointed out that the Everett interpretation (and developments based on it) is far from being the only interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Strictly speaking, none of this has anything to do with time travel, though. Current theoretical models of time travel generally suggest that time travelers would be constrained to re-enact their original histories, rather than creating alternate branches. Alternate histories would be a spontaneous outgrowth of quantum states as discussed above.
Which directly leads to the laws of probability being broken - highly improbable events have to happen in order for a time traveller into the past NOT to change history.

If this time traveller is sufficiently well informed (and he can be arbitrarily well informed, considering he has a time machine) and sufficiently determined, breaking probability is, possibly, not enough to stop him from changing history: even in quantum mechanics, there are a finite number of states a system can collapse into - what if none of these can stop the time traveller from changing the past?
The laws of physics themselves would have to be broken inn order to stop a time traveller to step on a cockroach 10000 years ago, drastically altering earth's present ecology, for example.


Also - such time travel would make instantaneous communication via entanglement feasible.

At present, we can't control the information being sent by entanglement (because we have no way of influencing quantum mechanical probability) - only useless noise is transmitted.
But, if we could influence the laws of probability (if the electron ends up with this spin, the past changes), we should have no problem sending useful information instantaneously.

Which would prove special relativity and its 'no preferential reference frame' as false.
 
^I didn't say it was true. I asked a question.

I wasn't being smart with you, I really thought that you might not have understood his reasoning because it wasn't reasonable. If someone is completely off the page it's sometimes difficult to understand what it is they are talking about.
 
^I didn't say it was true. I asked a question.

I wasn't being smart with you, I really thought that you might not have understood his reasoning because it wasn't reasonable. If someone is completely off the page it's sometimes difficult to understand what it is they are talking about.


Ahem. You are confusing me, the OP, with ThankQ.

The question in my original post isn't unreasonable. It's an honest question on how conservation of energy shakes out against splitting time lines in regards to the life time of the universe. I never made any claims of fact.
 
^I didn't say it was true. I asked a question.

I wasn't being smart with you, I really thought that you might not have understood his reasoning because it wasn't reasonable. If someone is completely off the page it's sometimes difficult to understand what it is they are talking about.


Ahem. You are confusing me, the OP, with ThankQ.

The question in my original post isn't unreasonable. It's an honest question on how conservation of energy shakes out against splitting time lines in regards to the life time of the universe. I never made any claims of fact.

It doesn't mess with conservation of energy because it is believed all of those universes already exsist in seperate timelines in seperate areas of the greatly more vast multi-verse.
 
If there are time travellers from the future, I bet they were never heard from again because they didn't account for the movement of things in space.
Travel one single second back in time, and Earth has moved 27 kilometers, the solar system 200 km, our galaxy 500 km, and so on. If you go back a thousand years, you might end up anywhere.
 
If they mastered time-travel I'm sure they figured that whole "things move" part as well and accounted for it.

Now, I would "presume" that perhaps whatever thing used to travel through time may move with the rest of the galaxy. So say you can travel back in time by, say, tying two cosmic strings together and then riding along them to either the past or the present it's "possible" that those cosmic strings move with the rest of the galaxy and the universe so they'll always be in the same spot throughout time.

But, just a random, crazy, theory unfounded in anything at all.

Now, if the time-travel is done through a wormhole created planet-side in some device then obviously "both ends" of the device move through space with the Earth, thus any travel through it would be from planet side-to-planet side.

And, again, in any "reality" traveling to the past couldn't be done in further back than the time the time machine was first activated.
 
^I didn't say it was true. I asked a question.

I wasn't being smart with you, I really thought that you might not have understood his reasoning because it wasn't reasonable. If someone is completely off the page it's sometimes difficult to understand what it is they are talking about.


Ahem. You are confusing me, the OP, with ThankQ.

The question in my original post isn't unreasonable. It's an honest question on how conservation of energy shakes out against splitting time lines in regards to the life time of the universe. I never made any claims of fact.

And that was my question to you: Why would that have anything to do with anything?

You say "split" timeline. You're ASSUMING it would create more timelines than existed before.

There are four options, and, for now let's ignore the first:

There are ZERO timelines (not going there now)
There is ONE timeline.
There is some other finite number of timelines.
There are infinite timelines.

If #4 is true, your "new" timeline already existed. We havnen't created/destroyed anything.

If #2 (one timeline) is true, then you're still in the same timeline, its just been altered-not created or destroyed.

So your question only applies in #3, where there were a finite number, and now you've made it finite+1. But I don't know of any hypothesis that suggestes there are like, 72 timelines exactly. And even if there were exactly 72, then, like with ONE timeline, perhaps you simply altered the one you were in, rather than creating a new one.
 
^Yes, I was trying to straighten out Fordsvt's replies as to who he was responding to.

And yes, in my original question I was ASSUMING it would create more timelines.

(You do know that CAPITALIZING words in forum etiquette is akin to yelling? please try using italics if you want to emphasize a word. Capitalization comes off as insulting to your audience)
 
^Meh, perhaps one day I'll adjust. If you read for context, I think its pretty clear that I'm not yelling. Why would I just yell "ZERO" in the middle of a sentence?
 
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