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Time Time and more Time

mahler

Lieutenant Commander
Why did time travel via "Red Matter" result in a divergent timeline rather than an altered timeline? How does Spock Prime know that it is a separate timeline? What is preventing him from trying to set right what once went wrong? I really wish that they had just scraped the whole time travel bit and just done a reboot!
Help!!!!!!!:wtf:
 
Spock knows, just like he somehow knew that Thelin's timeline would continue in "Yesteryear". That's good enough for me.

In real life, different writers with different ideas. Lots of different writers with different ideas. Same for "Time Squared" where the alternate Picard and shuttle just fade away, Back to the Future-style when in other episodes alternates hang around. Or "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - I still have no idea how beaming Captain Christopher and that guard into their duplicates solved anything.
 
But why was the "prime" timeline left unaltered? Should the changes have altered the future that Spock Prime came from rather than create a new time line? Magic Time Travel via Red Matter???????????????????????
 
Spock knows, just like he somehow knew that Thelin's timeline would continue in "Yesteryear". That's good enough for me.

In real life, different writers with different ideas. Lots of different writers with different ideas. Same for "Time Squared" where the alternate Picard and shuttle just fade away, Back to the Future-style when in other episodes alternates hang around. Or "Tomorrow is Yesterday" - I still have no idea how beaming Captain Christopher and that guard into their duplicates solved anything.

Thanks. I guess one should just enjoy it for what it is.:)
 
mahler, here's some of what Orci had to say on the matter back before the first movie

Anthony: So even though some things, most notably Kirk himself, are on a different path (for example he doesn’t go to the Farragut after the Academy), he still ends up on the Enterprise with Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, Spock, etc. Are you saying there is some kind of ‘entropy’ perhaps? So even though some things are different, they gravitate towards some kind of center point?

Bob: Yes. If you look at quantum mechanics and you learn about the fact that our most successful theory of science is quantum mechanics, and the fact that it deals with probabilities of events happening. And that the most probable events tend to happen more often and that one of the subsets of that theory is the many universe theory. Data said this [in "Parallels"], he summed up quantum mechanics as the theory that "all possibilities that can happendo happen" in a parallel universe. According to theory,there are going to be a much larger number of universes in which events are very closely related, because those are the most probable configurations of things. Inherent in quantum mechanics there is sort of reverse entropy, which is what you were trying to say, in which the universe does tend to want to order itself in a certain way. This is not something we are making up; this is something we researched, in terms of the physical theory. So yes, there is an element of the universe trying to hold itself together.


Anthony: OK so let’s call the timeline Nero left, as ‘the prime timeline’, so that means that the USS Kelvin, as designed and seen in the trailer, that is also in the prime timeline?

Bob: Yes

Anthony: So what happens with the destruction of the Kelvin is the creation of an alternative timeline, but what happens to the prime timeline after Nero leaves it? Does it continue or does it wink out of existence once he goes back and creates this new timeline.

Bob:
It continues. According to the most successful, most testedscientific theory ever, quantum mechanics, it continues.

Anthony:
So everyone in the prime timeline, like Picard and Riker, are still off doing there thing, it is just that Nero is gone.

Bob:
Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased, will continue to exist.

Anthony:
OK we just dove pretty deep into Trek physics minutiae. Is any of that discussed in the film? In "Back To The Future II," there is that scene with the Doc and Marty, where the Doc explains time travel to Marty on a chalkboard. Does Spock ever do that with Kirk?

Bob:
It would seem very logical. Quantum mechanics avoids the grandfather paradox that Back to the Future relies on, which is: you can go back in Back to the Future and screw with your own birth and potentially invalidate your own birth. In quantum mechanics that is not the case. In quantum mechanics, if you go back and kill your own father, then you just live on as the guy who came in from another universe who lives in a universe where you killed some guy, but you don’t erase your existence doing that.


Anthony: And you believe that the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is the Star Trek interpretation, based on "Parallels."

Bob:
Yes. I would argue that at the very least, if we are going to do our Star Trek, it has to conform to the latest scientific theories and the most advanced and complete, and right now that is quantum mechanics.

Anthony:
Star Trek has not always been consistent in this regard. For example both "Yesterday’s Enterprise" and "City on the Edge of Forever" seem to follow the Back to the Future rules of time travel, where new timelines overwrite previous timelines.

Bob:
We have to deal with it, with the fact that Star Trek episodes that don’t conform to our theory of it, also do notconform to the latest greatest, most highly tested scientific theory in human history. So Iwould default that it is the science that counts. And say in the case of "Star Trek IV," it could go either way. They cross over to a parallel universe and grab some whales and bring them back and save their own universe.

There's more if you follow the link

http://trekmovie.com/2008/12/11/bob...-movie-fits-with-trek-canon-and-real-science/
 
Maybe because it's always worked like it does with red matter, and we just didn't realize it until now (bwahaha).

Just about every instance of time travel (and not just in Trek) could (doesn't have to, but could) be explained as working the same way it did in Trek 09. Every time we think "our heroes" have "set right what once went wrong" and "fixed" the ONE TRUE timeline, we could be wrong. Suppose, instead, that every instance of time travel created a new branch, just like with red matter, but the branch was so similar to the one left behind that no one noticed (this is consistent with the TNG episode Parallels). So in these "almost identical" timelines, "our heroes" go on none the wiser and think, as we do, that they're back home and things have been "fixed". The camera (and thus, our POV) follows the characters, not the timeline itself, so we can't really tell either. Trek 09 could simply be a case where the camera follows the timeline, and not the characters, so we get to see the result of the changes.

Or, viewers can do what I do when it comes to time travel stories--Trek or otherwise. Treat the story according to the rules established by the story makers and go with it. If they consider it a "fix", it's a "fix". If it's a new branch, it's a new branch. And so on. So much more relaxing and enjoyable. Otherwise, no time travel story ever stands up to full scrutiny--and in that direction headaches and madness lie. YMMV.
 
This novel is extremely continuity-heavy, but manages to make it seem like every time travel in Trek makes sense.
Watching_the_Clock_cover.jpg
 
The timeline was already different just from Nero being there at all,
How do you know?

Because in the original timeline, there was no giant 24th century Romulan vessel suddenly appearing in front of the Kelvin. Put in the context of Orci's "quantum" theory: the state of the universe in front of the Kelvin is vacuum in the prime timeline. In the altered timeline, it's matter. That marks one of those "in some timeline, it happens" instances. Ergo, the two timelines diverge at that point.

And while I'm at it, let me comment on Mr. Orci's explanation of what he thinks is going on:

Bob said:
Bob: Yes. If you look at quantum mechanics and you learn about the fact that our most successful theory of science is quantum mechanics, and the fact that it deals with probabilities of events happening.
....
[The alternate timeline] continues. According to the most successful, most testedscientific theory ever, quantum mechanics, it continues.

Quantum mechanics is not the most successful, nor most tested scientific theory ever. He's probably referring to quantum electrodynamics (QED), whose theoretical predictions are matched to a significantly high decimal place in experiment. But that's not what he thinks he's saying, because it has nothing to do with the "many worlds" hypothesis.

Bobby O. said:
Inherent in quantum mechanics there is sort of reverse entropy, which is what you were trying to say, in which the universe does tend to want to order itself in a certain way.

This is absolute nonsense. Quantum mechanics -- or any other physical theory -- does not predict "reverse entropy." The second law of thermodynamics specifically calls for entropy to be non-decreasing, and there is nothing that suggests otherwise. Orci is confusing either (a) the idea of a stable perturbative system (like a motionless pendulum), which will eventually return to its original state if left long enough, or (b) the notion of a preferred thermodynamic state, which corresponds to the system with the highest entropy.

But there is no guarantee that if you mess with the initial state, the final will always "correct" itself back to the way it was "supposed" to be. That reeks of predestiny, which physics quite definitely does not accommodate.
 
You're the one arguing consistency with pre-established magical devices is important. Trek has always depicted, time travers as not being able to affect the course of future events just by "being their." They must interact with the environment in some substantial way before the timeline will drift. And even then, it's possible to "right" the events after the fact such that the end result is mostly the same. Even Robau's death probably wasn't significant to radically alter events, as he, by all accounts, isn't very historically important.

And, unless you admit that fudging with fictional magical devices is ultimately up to the discretion of the writer, then the rest of your argument, or what Orci said, is just needless obfuscation.
 
You're the one arguing consistency with pre-established magical devices is important. Trek has always depicted, time travers as not being able to affect the course of future events just by "being their." They must interact with the environment in some substantial way before the timeline will drift.

But for all we know, Nero's "just being there" would have had huge repercussions to the timeline, even if he wasn't nuts, killed Robau and forced George Kirk to ram the Kelvin into the Narada.

Here's the scenario: The Narada appears out of nowhere in front of the Kelvin. They establish that this gigantic ship is Romulan. To the knowledge of the 23rd century Federation, the 23rd century Romulan Empire has no ships like this, never mind using one to infringe into Federation space (they are unaware that this ship is from the future.) So the Federation thinks that the Romulans are way more advanced than they really are, and way more of a threat. They think the Romulans are about to make an incursion into Federation space, in a prelude to an attack or a war. So Starfleet invades Romulus first. War starts. Millions of people die who didn't die before. And all this because Nero was just "being there."
 
You're the one arguing consistency with pre-established magical devices is important. Trek has always depicted, time travers as not being able to affect the course of future events just by "being their."

You're changing the topic. I was responding to your question of "How do you know [it was already different]?" I responded by saying that, according to the rules the writer assumed, it had changed. End of story.

And furthermore, I'm not sure what you say is true. In the episodes that immediately come to mind (Tomorrow is Yesterday, The Naked Time, City on the Edge, Yesterday's Enterprise), there's no way to know that their "being there" didn't affect the course of history immediately (because when you are simply "there," you inevitably interact with the environment -- doesn't just have to be people).
 
They must interact with the environment in some substantial way

For some reason, I have a feeling Nero would have done that. Just a hunch.

And even then, it's possible to "right" the events after the fact such that the end result is mostly the same.

Unless it isn't. You act as if consequence-free reset-button time travel is a law of the universe as opposed to an overplayed writing trope relied upon by writers who don't want to upset the status quo.

Even Robau's death probably wasn't significant to radically alter events, as he, by all accounts, isn't very historically important.

Who cares? If Robau dies earlier than he otherwise would have, the timeline is different. All this "radically alter" or "historical importance" stuff is just moving the goalposts.
 
Quantum mechanics -- or any other physical theory -- does not predict "reverse entropy." The second law of thermodynamics specifically calls for entropy to be non-decreasing, and there is nothing that suggests otherwise.

Except for Poincare's Recurrence Theorem.
 
Quantum mechanics -- or any other physical theory -- does not predict "reverse entropy." The second law of thermodynamics specifically calls for entropy to be non-decreasing, and there is nothing that suggests otherwise.

Except for Poincare's Recurrence Theorem.

Nothing to do with entropy. It's a trivial example of the time-dependent nature of a simple quantum system.
 
It's make-believe! Time travel in Trek doesn't have to act like it might be theorised to in reality, any more than Trek suddenly has to adhere to things like relativity.
 
But why was the "prime" timeline left unaltered? Should the changes have altered the future that Spock Prime came from rather than create a new time line? Magic Time Travel via Red Matter???????????????????????

Because they knew that they might piss off some long-term fans with the new movies and didn't want to get lynched by people upset that their favorite Star Trek series and movies never "really" happened?

Some people do get that involved with fandoms. Imagine if the makers of Doctor Who decided that for the next Doctor, instead of regenerating the current one, they alter the timeline in a way that has nr.3 regenerate into the next one, thus wiping 4-12 from history, can you imagine that fan outcry?
And as a fan of the greater ST universe I admit I would have also felt a bit cheesed if they erased TNG and DS9 from the "official" timeline.

It was a very smart movie to use the "many worlds" established in Parallels to do their reboot and so ease the transition.
Plus this way they can continue to publish novels in the "Prime" timeline as well as STO.
 
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