Thunderbolt Vs USB 3.0

[Candlelight]

Just reading about this on MacRumors:

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/17/hewlett-packard-not-convinced-of-the-value-of-thunderbolt/

PCWorld reports that while Hewlett-Packard (HP) had considered using Thunderbolt in its newest desktop PCs, for now it's sticking with USB 3.0.We did look at [Thunderbolt]. Were still looking into it. Haven't found a value proposition yet, said Xavier Lauwaert, worldwide marketing manager for desktops at HP.
According to Lauwaert, everyone seems to be content with USB 3.0 so they don't see the value of including Thunderbolt in their desktop machines.

Thunderbolt seems to have come out rather quickly; then again USB 3 has taken absolutely ages to gather momentum.

 

[Canadave]

I just don't get why we can't switch everything over to USB. I mean, it's supposed to be the Universal Serial Bus, and it'd be a hell of a lot easier if everything just finally accepted USB as a standard.

 

[Mr. B]

I don't think there's been a huge clamour to replace USB 2 which might explain the slow roll-out of USB 3. Just because Apple has added another port to their new and overpriced products, I wouldn't expect wide adoption anytime soon.

There's also the issue of backward compatibility. On portable devices, designs will likely require the removal of a USB port to accomodate thunderbolt.

This whole things seems like a re-run of Firewire vs USB 2.

 

[Jadzia]

I just don't get why we can't switch everything over to USB. I mean, it's supposed to be the Universal Serial Bus, and it'd be a hell of a lot easier if everything just finally accepted USB as a standard.

USB isn't as reliable as many would like it to be: It can sometimes refuse to connect, and sometimes refuse to disconnect.

I don't know if firewire is better or worse in this regard, nor this new thunderbolt. If it has better reliability, that would count massively in it's favour.

 

[Marc]

I just don't get why we can't switch everything over to USB. I mean, it's supposed to be the Universal Serial Bus, and it'd be a hell of a lot easier if everything just finally accepted USB as a standard.

USB isn't as reliable as many would like it to be: It can sometimes refuse to connect, and sometimes refuse to disconnect.

I don't know if firewire is better or worse in this regard, nor this new thunderbolt. If it has better reliability, that would count massively in it's favour.

Aren't there also protocol overheads?

I seem to recall that both USB2.0 and Firewire 400 had similar theoretical speeds (about 400mbit/sec) but Firewire's protocol had less overhead so for hard disks at least FW400 offered better performance.

Don't know about FW800vs USB3.0 though.

Apple has thunderbolt on the last range of Mac products.

Thunderbolt was created by Intel while USB is an industry standard (read designed by committee but I gather the main reason for the slow uptake on USB3 is how it's implemented

If look at the details in the article below you'll note that thunderbolt is a serperate chip at present that ties in the PCIe bus and display port.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4194/intels-codename-lightpeak-launches-as-thunderbolt

In contrast USB is including the main motherboard chipset. So for the manufactures to go with USB they need to either for an external controller (plug in card or posslble seperate controller chip on the board as was the case with SATAIII but I'm not 100% on this) or wait for the chipset makers (Intel, AMD, nVIDIA) to incorporate it in their designs.

 

[Jadzia]

I'd like to see a universal optical data connector become standard: Power terminals should be included, but no electronic data wires.

 

[Candlelight]

I know Apple are trying to implement (at some stage) a new type of magsafe adapter that will also double as the ethernet port.

 

[Marc]

I know Apple are trying to implement (at some stage) a new type of magsafe adapter that will also double as the ethernet port.

well that's a creative way to ethernet over power

 

[Candlelight]

Well this is interesting:

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/18...-not-intel-applies-for-thunderbolt-trademark/

Engadget and Gula Digital report that while Sony is planning on implementing Thunderbolt in their upcoming laptops, the company will be using a USB connector rather than a DisplayPort connector. Look closely at that picture. See that Type-A USB jack? The one with the blue stripe sandwiched between the round AC jack (with its green light) and VGA and HDMI ports? Yeah, that's Sony's Thunderbolt implementation according to a trusted source.
Engadget seems confident in their source, and Gula Digital's sources are independelty saying the same thing: Sony will use the USB interface, not mini DisplayPort for their Thunderbolt implementation.

Also in the same article:

Separately, we've noticed that Apple has applied for the Thunderbolt trademark in the U.S. It was previously noticed that Apple had applied for the Thunderbolt trademark in Canada as well. This is unusual since Intel's own pages list Thunderbolt as an Intel trademark. Apple similarly trademarked Firewire, but that trademark was adopted as the official name by the 1394 Trade Association and was granted as a free license to all.

 

[Small White Car]

I just don't get why we can't switch everything over to USB. I mean, it's supposed to be the Universal Serial Bus, and it'd be a hell of a lot easier if everything just finally accepted USB as a standard.

Because USB can't daisy chain a monitor with a hard drive with a an ethernet router.

Thunderbolt is designed to do pretty much anything. It doesn't care what you pass through it unlike many of the previous connectors which are only made for one particular kind of data.

 

[Marc]

Well this is interesting:

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/18...-not-intel-applies-for-thunderbolt-trademark/

Engadget and Gula Digital report that while Sony is planning on implementing Thunderbolt in their upcoming laptops, the company will be using a USB connector rather than a DisplayPort connector. Look closely at that picture. See that Type-A USB jack? The one with the blue stripe sandwiched between the round AC jack (with its green light) and VGA and HDMI ports? Yeah, that's Sony's Thunderbolt implementation according to a trusted source.
Engadget seems confident in their source, and Gula Digital's sources are independelty saying the same thing: Sony will use the USB interface, not mini DisplayPort for their Thunderbolt implementation.

Also in the same article:

Separately, we've noticed that Apple has applied for the Thunderbolt trademark in the U.S. It was previously noticed that Apple had applied for the Thunderbolt trademark in Canada as well. This is unusual since Intel's own pages list Thunderbolt as an Intel trademark. Apple similarly trademarked Firewire, but that trademark was adopted as the official name by the 1394 Trade Association and was granted as a free license to all.

Just reading the wiki entry on Thunderbolt, running Thunderbolt through it's interface breaks a few things (only allowing video out) so I guess tying a camera to Apple's implentationt Thunderbolt is out.

Do Sony laptops have display port? It could if they have no plans to implement it they would go their own way with the interface (no displace port, no display port interface).

 

[Jadzia]

Sony is planning on implementing Thunderbolt in their upcoming laptops, the company will be using a USB connector

I don't know how I feel about using the USB connector. It has much potential to confuse. And if other companies choose a different connector, that would be a disaster.

There needs to be a fixed specification like was created for CDROM. Everyone has to follow that specification to the letter in order to use the CDROM logo. Standards is what makes a technology successful, and that's good for the manufactures as well as the end user.

What we don't want is companies tinkering with the specification, or filling in missing details themselves. That's a sign of something ill thought out and failure in the making.

 

[Mr. B]

Well this is interesting:

Engadget and Gula Digital report that while Sony is planning on implementing Thunderbolt in their upcoming laptops, the company will be using a USB connector rather than a DisplayPort connector. Look closely at that picture. See that Type-A USB jack? The one with the blue stripe sandwiched between the round AC jack (with its green light) and VGA and HDMI ports? Yeah, that's Sony's Thunderbolt implementation according to a trusted source.

A USB port with a blue stripe? That's what USB 3 ports look like.

 

[Candlelight]

Sony is planning on implementing Thunderbolt in their upcoming laptops, the company will be using a USB connector

I don't know how I feel about using the USB connector. It has much potential to confuse. And if other companies choose a different connector, that would be a disaster.

There needs to be a fixed specification like was created for CDROM. Everyone has to follow that specification to the letter in order to use the CDROM logo. Standards is what makes a technology successful, and that's good the manufactures as well as the end user.

What we don't want is companies tinkering with the specification, or filling in missing details themselves. That's a sign of something ill thought out and failure in the making.

When has Sony ever followed convention?? Look up 'Proprietry' in the dictionary and you'll see a photo of Sony headquarters.

 

[Candlelight]

Well this is interesting:

Engadget and Gula Digital report that while Sony is planning on implementing Thunderbolt in their upcoming laptops, the company will be using a USB connector rather than a DisplayPort connector. Look closely at that picture. See that Type-A USB jack? The one with the blue stripe sandwiched between the round AC jack (with its green light) and VGA and HDMI ports? Yeah, that's Sony's Thunderbolt implementation according to a trusted source.

A USB port with a blue stripe? That's what USB 3 ports look like.

The prototype:

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/19...t-peak-high-speed-connection-technology-soon/

 

[Marc]

Sony is planning on implementing Thunderbolt in their upcoming laptops, the company will be using a USB connector

I don't know how I feel about using the USB connector. It has much potential to confuse. And if other companies choose a different connector, that would be a disaster.

There needs to be a fixed specification like was created for CDROM. Everyone has to follow that specification to the letter in order to use the CDROM logo. Standards is what makes a technology successful, and that's good the manufactures as well as the end user.

What we don't want is companies tinkering with the specification, or filling in missing details themselves. That's a sign of something ill thought out and failure in the making.

When has Sony ever followed convention?? Look up 'Proprietry' in the dictionary and you'll see a photo of Sony headquarters.

and when Sony aren't being propitiatory they have the clout to set standards and have everyone else adopt them (Compact Disc and Blu-ray both came out of Sony).

 

[FordSVT]

I don't know how I feel about using the USB connector. It has much potential to confuse. And if other companies choose a different connector, that would be a disaster.

There needs to be a fixed specification like was created for CDROM. Everyone has to follow that specification to the letter in order to use the CDROM logo. Standards is what makes a technology successful, and that's good the manufactures as well as the end user.

What we don't want is companies tinkering with the specification, or filling in missing details themselves. That's a sign of something ill thought out and failure in the making.

When has Sony ever followed convention?? Look up 'Proprietry' in the dictionary and you'll see a photo of Sony headquarters.

and when Sony aren't being propitiatory they have the clout to set standards and have everyone else adopt them (Compact Disc and Blu-ray both came out of Sony).

Betamax was Sony too, as was MiniDisc. They all but handed the portable music player market to Apple and ATRAC is irrelevant. The TWG and IBM basically bitch-slapped Sony into avoiding another format war by working with Toshiba et al when coming up with the DVD standard. The major reason Blu-ray caught on was because the PS3 came with one and Sony spent a shit-ton on marketing the format, I'll give them that. They stole the market right out from underneath Toshiba (who should have had Microsoft put an HD-DVD enabled player in every 360).

It's not just Sony pushing these formats either, they created the CD format with Philips and the Blu-ray format with Pioneer (to simplify), and then pushed those respective formats along with a conglomerate of other high-profile and influential electronics and entertainment corporations. Don't give them too much credit, they don't wave their hands and make things happen the way they want them to, and there is a lot of political wrangling and industry intrigue that takes place over years if not decades leading to these decisions.

That response was probably a lot longer and more involved than your comment warranted, sorry about that.

 

[Marc]

There's an article up on slashdot today where it's predicted that thunderbolt is going to crash and burn due largely to the costs of the devices.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2385615,00.asp

 

[Small White Car]

There's an article up on slashdot today where it's predicted that thunderbolt is going to crash and burn due largely to the costs of the devices.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2385615,00.asp

Engadget pretty much calls that article a liar.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/17/sonys-thunderbolt-implementation-hiding-in-plain-site-uses-usb/

They say that the USB Consortium rejected the idea of using USB ports for Thunderbolt. The Extremetech article says it was Apple's idea.

The thing is, I've heard the consortium reason other places before, and Extremetech offers no sources or proof for their claim. I'm pretty sure they just made it up.