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Threw my head back and vomited

I'm just thinking that "Casablanca" is "Casablanca" and, personally, I'm not comfortable with customizing it to suit my own tastes.

Just for the record, this is a view I have great sympathy for.

I go through the trouble of reading books in a foreign language because I'm uncomfortable with translation, prefer to watch movies with subtitles even if a dub in a language I understand is available because I want to hear the original actor's voices and play old video games with their outdated original graphics even when there are fan-made modifications available that greatly improve their graphical fidelity by replacing art assets with faithful higher-res recreations. The authenticity of the original experience is actually very important to me.

A pertinent example here is my public worrying in an old thread about the omnibus re-release of Destiny of whether I should read the original standalone versions or the revised omnibus versions of the novels ... despite the revisions having been done by the original author I still worry about getting the original experience the folks who initially fell in love with Destiny had. I still hope the omnibus will see an e-book release so I can buy both versions and generate errata (which I promised to publish for others who showed the same interest) so I at least know the difference.

But while I care greatly about these things, I see it more as my personal preference than necessarily as a moral high ground.
 
Somebody had to fix "janeway spinnign around in her command chair," in The Black Shore.

Oh dear. Is that really in there?

So I went and checked! It's really:

"Janeway swung around in her chair to look at the Vulcan."

And yeah, it's on the bridge. The vulcan is Tuvok, presumably at his usual station.

Borderline, if you ask me ... :vulcan:
 
Yeah, it's fixed orientation AFAIR. "Swung around" isn't as damning an oversight as the originally suggested "spun around" to me because swinging could just (and I guess was meant to) refer to torso action, but I can see how it might lift an eyebrow.

ETA: The Black Shore was published in 1997, so it's reasonable to assume that Greg had seen the bridge set by that point ... and yes, only now when researching whether a pre-Caretaker schedule could explain it did I realize who wrote it!
 
Yeah, it's fixed orientation AFAIR. "Swung around" isn't as damning an oversight as the originally suggested "spun around" to me because swinging could just (and I guess was meant to) refer to torso action, but I can see how it might lift an eyebrow.

ETA: The Black Shore was published in 1997, so it's reasonable to assume that Greg had seen the bridge set by that point ... and yes, only now when researching whether a pre-Caretaker schedule could explain it did I realize who wrote it!

Yeah, I started working on Black Shore before the show debuted, but I had definitely seen some episodes before I turned in the finished manuscript. Fifteen years later, I can't really remember what I was thinking when I wrote that, but let's pretend I meant Janeway was twisting her torso! :)

Getting back to the issue, I wonder how much technology is changing peoples' attitudes here. It would never occur to me to go through a paperback book making changes with a ballpoint pen, but maybe people regard electronic files as less sacrosanct?

(I confess I have yet to do the ebook thing. I'm a Luddite who still prefers my books on paper, thank you very much. And most of these computer analogies are flying way over my head. As far as I know, computers are magic boxes with elves in them.)
 
That's a good question, and harder to answer than I first thought. I think I want to clear the air a bit before I try: I don't like the use of "sacrosanct" here, because it feels like nodding my head at it would basically be admitting to a lack of respect for the work of some sort, which I don't want to - basically I think it's a bit too loaded a word choice :). "Have you stopped beating your wife?", if you get my drift.

Moving on: Speaking as someone who's quite tuned into the whole ebook thing, one of the reasons I am is indeed because they allow me to do non-destructive editing. That is, I can highlight sections at will without actually taking a marker to paper, I can make as many bookmarks as I want without folding over a corner, and yes sometimes I will even actually factually change the text (to splice in author annotations, as mentioned). I would try to avoid doing any of these to a paper book, because they'd on some level cause irreversible damage. To me that I can do these things without causing damage to my book is a big improvement.

OTOH, ironically, other forms of "irreversible damage" are what's giving me an emotional connection to many paper books I own that an ebook cannot provide - the signs of use the books I inherited from my father show. When I read one of those and find an underlined section, or heck even an ugly coffee stain, I know he read and ruminated on the same text, and that's quite powerful.

(Other reasons I like ebooks: I think paper books are ergonomically quite suboptimal. They're heavy, they're off balance at the start and toward the end, I don't get to control the font face, and so on. Ebooks also allow me to easily tie in information sources such as dictionaries, encyclopedias and even Memory Alpha.)

But in context of what I wrote earlier about how deeply I care about the authenticity of an original experience, I don't think that I'm open to doing these kinds of edits means I treat ebooks with any less respect. Rather, I think what transitioning mediums in this way teaches you is to treat the text as its own, abstract entity separate from the medium it is delivered on. I respect the work, not the medium.

Now, this isn't always easily possible with all books. If you think back to the ingenius way that telepathic communication was typeset in Alfred Bester's seminal The Demolished Man, that's not easily compatible with getting to pick your own font face and font size, because reflowing the text (i.e. recalculating the line wrapping) is going to terribly screw thigns up. I'd have to check, but current ebook editions of the book probably preserve those sections as embedded image files to escape the reader's formatting control and come across as intact. I could ramble on now about possible nicer tech solutions and the way future ebook formats are heading, but I think me technobabbling for a screenpage would get us too far from the topic ...

ETA: Here's an old revision of the Wikipedia page on The Demolished Man that still had reproductions of telepathic exchanges in the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Demolished_Man&oldid=405449194#Stylistic_methods
 
Sorry for the double post, but ... erf, rambling mode.

To expand on the above, one interesting avenue to head down on is to talk about whether audiences have an obligation to respect the creator's preferences for what circumstances they should receive a work in. For example, maybe an author doesn't want me to have the convenient encyclopedia access an ebook provides because he doesn't want me to do lookups while I'm reading; instead he wants me to turn the page, keep the pace up.

However, if one is to actually argue that point, then I hope they never watch a movie on television, because very few filmmakers make movies to be seen on a television set. Most filmmakers love the theater environment and design their work to be received in that environment. The theater (provided it is a decent one) also does still have technical strengths over what you can reasonably accomplish at home, e.g. a greater color gamut. And a filmmaker who cares is going to make their movie to be received in the best possible circumstances: In that sense, you have never seen Lawrence of Arabia until you have seen an actual 70mm projection of it.

Except, yeah, I do side with the freedom of the reader/viewer there. I sympathize with creators who get frustrated about the lousy TV sets people watch their movies on, but I honestly don't think creators should get that amount of control once they let their work loose on the world. Even without open source licensing, there is just a certain level of loss of control that a creator has to contend with, I think.
 
In that sense, you have never seen Lawrence of Arabia until you have seen an actual 70mm projection of it.

Depends on the movie. I admit I don't really see the point of watching 2001 on TV, especially after watching it in Cinerama back in the sixties. And, yeah, seeing Lawrence of Arabia at the Zeigfeld years ago was amazing.

On other hand, some films translate fine to TV. You probably don't need an IMAX screen to enjoy My Dinner with Andre or Inherit the Wind or something.

But that's not quite the same thing as what we've been talking about, of course. What would be weird would be deciding that you didn't like Zeppo so you cut him out of all your personal copies of the early Marx Bros. movies.

And then, of course, there's colorization . . . which also depends on the movie, IMHO. Colorizing "Casablanca" or "Cat People" is sacrilege, but old Gilligan's Island episodes or Flash Gordon serials . . . well, I can't get too worked up about that.
 
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Except that colorization just looks so damn bad. It doesn't look at all like realistic color; it's just grayscale images with blobs of color superimposed onto them. B&W and color photography are different things; the former is more about contrast, about light and shadow. Colorized B&W just looks like an uneasy hybrid, one thing pretending to be another and not working very well as either.

See, that's the thing. Even if alteration isn't off-limits in principle, some alterations just diminish a work.
 
Part of freedom of expression is the freedom to express distaste or disagreement toward other people's choices of expression.
I couldn't agree more with this.



This thread is quite and eye-opener. I had no idea these "kindle" things allowed for a literature version of game haxx. I have to say, that even given the opportunity, I probably wouldn't even correct text/spelling errors - it'd just feel wrong, even if it's for the right reasons...


...but that's just one more reason I prefer real books anyways.

:bolian:
 
It's gotten to the point that I've had to do a search and replace on my kindle files and fix it.
Wait a sec. People are rewriting books to their own specifications now?

Am I the only one who gets a bit of a chill at that idea?
I had no idea you could do that. I may have to reconsider my vow never to own one of those things. Typos and grammar mistakes, when not intrinsic to the character/story, drive me NUTS. There is really no excuse for a book to hit the shelves in such a state.

Sure, some fan edits can be creative, but altering Tolkien's meticulously crafted prose to replace a period-appropriate "ere" with a more ordinary "before"? That's not creativity, that's just bowdlerization.
I do agree, as it shows a different attitude to the text - an attitude I think very comparable to the modernizing of other older literature - which I would criticise as limiting the getting of one form of full and proper experience out of a text. However modernisation or contemporisation of a text does helps comprehension sometimes despite de-mystifying and de-literarising the text. I think the changing of 'ere' and possibly other words will reflect that latter choice possibly for Ben Sisko of comprehensibility and offsetting some kind of wall forming when reading. I would never do it with Tolkien, but I can condone it, because I have to do this myself for other texts.

In this case, I find uniform changing of the word wrong. I couldn't condone it, since 'before' lacks the nuances of 'ere' that Tolkien might have been using in each individual circumstance? * And yes, it robs Tolkien of his poetry, his period and my own personal attraction to first Middle English and thence to Old English. But I know for many that loving world-building is not only annoying, but incomprehensible. :(

Anyway, compare the following:

if Crystis body be dewed with euerlasting ioye, þe seruise of Corpus Christi imad be frere Thomas [Aquinas] is vntrewe and peyntid ful of false miraclis. And þat is no wonder, for frere Thomas þat same time, holding with þe pope, wolde haue mad a miracle of an henne ey, and we knoewe wel þat euery lesyng opinli prechid turnith him [Cryst] to velanye þat euere was trewe and withoute defaute.

and

if Christ’s body is endowed with everlasting joy, the service of Corpus Chirsti made by Friar Thomas is untrue and painted full of false miracles. And no wonder, for Friar Thomas, agreeing with the Pope on this matter, would have made a miracle of a hen’s egg, and we know that every lie which is publically preached is a disgrace to him [Christ] who was always faithful and without fault
I prefer the former, it is authentic c.1400 language, it even contains its thorns [þ=th]; the latter is what I would give to a person who doesn't care for middle english prose or its wonderful period-ness.

----

* From the OED:

A. adv.1
1.
a. in Old English (late WS.): Early, at an early hour.
b. since 15th c. only Sc. (forms air, ear): Early, soon: opposed to late.
†2. Sooner, at an earlier time. Obs.
†3. Sooner, rather, in preference. Obs.
†4.
a. Before, formerly, at a former time, on a former occasion; often preceded by ever, never. Also in of ere (see of prep. Phrases 1b). Also: A little while ago, just now.
b. First; before something else, or before anything else is done.

B. prep.
1.

a. Before (in time). Also in comb.† ere-yesterday n. Obs. the day before yesterday.

[and etc, for those who can access, see here]
This all reminds me of the question of where to draw the line when thinking up different versions of the Old/New Testaments. Or how the original versions of Grimm's Fairy Tales differ so greatly from the modern-day sanitized versions.

I have a copy of Canterbury Tales, and have read some of it for fun. I've had the book since my college days 30 years ago, when my English instructor read us the Prologue in the correct period accent. That got me absolutely hooked, and I realized it wasn't as hard to understand when, like Shakespeare, it's read aloud. Some writing is just meant to be heard, rather than merely read.

A copy of the book - ink, paper and glue - the author wrote is yours. A digital file of a book the author wrote, though...is it really yours? Do you own the book, or just the hardware it is displayed on? Is it acceptable to edit a file of a book that the author had intended to be a finished piece?
You own the physical object known as The Book - which in anthropological terms would be the "artifact."

The author owns the original arrangement of numbers, letters, characters, and images that make up the manuscript of the book. That's the "mentifact" - which could also be considered the legal version of the artifact.

So yeah, you can do whatever you want with a physical book. Read it, use it for a paperweight, swat a fly with it, use it for a coaster... I've done all these with my books. But only the author owns the actual book - that is to say, the manuscript, the legal artifact.

I admit to being unapologetically old-school about this. I've spent too much time staring at a blinking cursor, trying to come up with the right word or phrase, not to cringe at the idea of readers second-guessing me when it comes to my own books. The way I see it, Dave Mack or Tolkien or whomever chose the words they used for a reason, possibly after careful thought and consideration, and it's not my job as a reader to rewrite their books for them.
But not all authors spend a lot of time searching for just the right word. Some authors are downright lazy, and plop in the same word/phrase they've used 892 times before, even in the very same novel (read any of the nuDune crap by Kevin J. Anderson/Brian Herbert, if you don't believe me).

Sorry for the double post, but ... erf, rambling mode.

To expand on the above, one interesting avenue to head down on is to talk about whether audiences have an obligation to respect the creator's preferences for what circumstances they should receive a work in. For example, maybe an author doesn't want me to have the convenient encyclopedia access an ebook provides because he doesn't want me to do lookups while I'm reading; instead he wants me to turn the page, keep the pace up.
If an author doesn't want you to look stuff up while reading, he/she ought to make any confusing stuff not-confusing within the context of the story. It's damn irritating to have to constantly refer to a glossary or dramatis personae to know what's going on.

However, if one is to actually argue that point, then I hope they never watch a movie on television, because very few filmmakers make movies to be seen on a television set.
For sure that's not how Star Wars was intended. People ridicule and belittle it (the original, in its original, unchanged form), but how many people here have seen it in its original form, in the theatre? Probably more than in the average group of people, but still there are a lot of Star Wars fans who didn't, and don't understand the point of view of we older fans. Luke's dive into the "trench" of the Death Star gave me chills in the theatre; does that happen if I see it on TV? Nope.

In the David Lynch version of Dune, if you see it in the theatre, the Prophecy Theme portion tends to produce a relaxing effect that calms the audience down and helps create the awareness that there is something mystical and unexplainable going on in the story. You just don't get that same effect watching the movie on TV, surrounded by all the other sensory distractions of home.

In that sense, you have never seen Lawrence of Arabia until you have seen an actual 70mm projection of it.
Depends on the movie. I admit I don't really see the point of watching 2001 on TV, especially after watching it in Cinerama back in the sixties. And, yeah, seeing Lawrence of Arabia at the Zeigfeld years ago was amazing.
I bet Ben-Hur was mind-blowing in the theatre, given that I'm riveted to the TV screen throughout that whole chariot race section.

And then, of course, there's colorization . . . which also depends on the movie, IMHO. Colorizing "Casablanca" or "Cat People" is sacrilege, but old Gilligan's Island episodes or Flash Gordon serials . . . well, I can't get too worked up about that.
Colorization... gah! There's a thread somewhere in the Media forum here from a few years ago, where somebody said he couldn't stand black-and-white movies just because... they were black-and-white. So when I found out there was going to be a Hepburn/Tracy film festival on TV the coming weekend, I decided to watch it. And I loved it! Those movies don't need to be colorized at all. They also don't need to be "remade."

One of the worst examples of colorization I've ever seen was the Richard Greene TV series of Robin Hood (from the late 1950s). It's an enjoyable (if silly) TV series in black-and-white. But colorized... good _____(insert deity of your choice) - MEN JUST DO *NOT* WEAR THAT SHADE OF GREEN! They didn't even wear that shade of green in Robin Hood: Men in Tights, which was a spoof of Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.

Would I change stuff in a physical book? Yes. I have done so, when finding typos, spelling mistakes, grammatical errors that bother me, etc. And then I think about offering my services so I'd actually get PAID to fix stuff that should have already been fixed. In an e-book? I don't know, since I've never owned an e-reader. I suspect I would.

But change a story otherwise? That's what fanfic is for. ;)
 
The worst example of "colorization" I've seen was actually before computer colorization. Some classic Popeye and Warner Bros. cartoons which had been made in high-quality, black-and-white animation were cheaply remade in color and low quality in the late '70s or early '80s for the sake of TV audiences who wouldn't watch B&W shows. Which just struck me as a horribly warped set of priorities, that people would rather see something badly done in color than something superbly done in black and white.
 
I certainly don't approve of changing an authors work, but I've got something on my reader with a misspelling. How do you correct Kindle errors ?
 
I think you guys are falling for a troll. It isn't an overly simple process, I doubt most people would make the effort any more than most people would edit a book they would buy at the store with white out.

I certainly don't approve of changing an authors work, but I've got something on my reader with a misspelling. How do you correct Kindle errors ?

You would have to use something to strip out the DRM, then something to convert it to HTML or RTF or whatever, make your changes, then you would convert it to MOBI (which is the Kindle format). From there, you upload it or email it to your Kindle. Like I said, not a simple process, especially if you are doing it to correct one or two spelling errors.

Is it moral? Well, if you are correcting typos then whatever, but who is going to go to this effort to correct a typo? If you are altering the book in a more significant way, then no it is not moral, but that is why copyright has a no derivatives clause and the publishers should go after people distributing altered work to the full extant of the law.

This wouldn't be a new event, things like Grimm's Fairy Tales were not created out of thin air, and how many people think they know the story of Aladdin or the Hunchback of Notre Dame because they saw the Disney movie?
 
I think you guys are falling for a troll. It isn't an overly simple process, I doubt most people would make the effort any more than most people would edit a book they would buy at the store with white out.

I certainly don't approve of changing an authors work, but I've got something on my reader with a misspelling. How do you correct Kindle errors ?

You would have to use something to strip out the DRM, then something to convert it to HTML or RTF or whatever, make your changes, then you would convert it to MOBI (which is the Kindle format). From there, you upload it or email it to your Kindle. Like I said, not a simple process, especially if you are doing it to correct one or two spelling errors.

Is it moral? Well, if you are correcting typos then whatever, but who is going to go to this effort to correct a typo? If you are altering the book in a more significant way, then no it is not moral, but that is why copyright has a no derivatives clause and the publishers should go after people distributing altered work to the full extant of the law.

This wouldn't be a new event, things like Grimm's Fairy Tales were not created out of thin air, and how many people think they know the story of Aladdin or the Hunchback of Notre Dame because they saw the Disney movie?

Stripping DRM is illegal and we would never do that. :mallory:
 
The thought of editing a book, whether with tip-ex and a pen on a real book, or by electronic means on a Kindle has never, ever crossed my mind.

If I don't like the book, I'll stop reading or struggle on, then give it a bad review or word of mouth. If I don't like the choice of words or grammar, I'll wince and either throw it down or shake my head and keep going.

I don't know if it's laziness on my part or respect for the author (even if I may not be enjoying his book) but I just can't get my head around the idea of changing it, even after reading various explanations on this thread to justify it. But to each their own.
 
Correcting errors is one thing. I can also accept changing certain words and phrases when translating so readers in that language can better understand your point. However, changing words and expressions by an author just seems wrong. You are tampering with his creative work, something he probably takes a lot of pride in. I would rahter someone hate on something I created than make changes to it without my permission, even if it was a copy of it they have for personal use.

That said, I have never read ANYTHING from David Mack that I didn't love.
 
I think you guys are falling for a troll. It isn't an overly simple process...
I could have sworn the version of the kindle that comes with a built-in keyboard has a find and replace function. I could be wrong, it's been a while since I played with one of those.

Kudos to the OP for a great thread title. :bolian:
 
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