Thoughts from rewatching the end of season 5

[Mallet]

Just rewatched the last two episodes of season five and had a couple of observations. Not sure if they mean anything, but...

Jacob visited Sawyer and Kate when they were just little kids, Sawyer in about 1977, Kate I would guess in about 1989 (when she was about 10 years old).

Jacob didn't visit Jack and Locke until much later. Locke he visited about 4 years before the crash, so maybe around the year 2000. He visited Jack just when he started out in Spinal Surgery (after his first "major solo operation") so maybe in 1997ish? I'm assuming that it took a few years for Jack to become the super surgeon he was when he saved his future wife, then the few years before, during and after his marriage and his trip to Thailand, etc... before the plane crash in 2004. So 1997 seems about right. I'm not sure when he visits Sun & Jin. At their wedding, so maybe 2-3 years before the crash?

Jacob visited Sayid three months after Sayid got off the island, so in late 2004. Then he visited Hurley only the day before they all returned to the Island in 2007.

So the timeline looks like this:

1977 - Jacob visits 10 year old Sawyer.
1989 - Jacob visits 10 year old Kate.
1997 - Jacob visits 30 something Jack.
2000 - Jacob visits 46 year old Locke.
2001(?) - Jacob visits Sun & Jin.
2004 - Jacob visits Sayid after he escape the Island.
2007 - Jacob visits Hurley three years after he escapes the island.

So my thoughts/question is why such a big difference in when Jacob visited the Losties? Did he somehow know earlier that Sawyer and Kate would be needed on the island years later, but he wasn't so sure about Jack, Sun, Jin and Locke? And since he visited those 6 before they ever went to the island the first time does that make them different somehow then Sayid and Hurley who he only visited after they had already been to the island and left?

I mean, if he had visited Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Sun, Jin and Locke all when they were around 10 years old then I could see how those six might have been "chosen" to come to the island from a young age (we have seen the Other's interest in children before, was this something Jacob inspired in them?) But he came to Jack, Sun, Jin and Locke so much later in life it is kind of weird. And then Sayid and Hurley seem to almost after thoughts to his plans.

I was thinking that maybe he showed up at the most major point in the characters lives, Sawyer just after his parents are killed, Jack after his first major surgery, Locke when he has his back broken, Sun and Jin when they were married, Sayid when his wife is killed. But that doesn't explain Kate and Hurley. He showed up to Kate when she got caught shoplifting but that is hardly a major event in a life of crime like hers. And with Hurley it was just when he got out of a couple of days in jail, not really a major life point for him. So what is the connection?

Also, it seems like Hurley is the only one Jacob really talks to, they actually have a conversation and he talks Hurley into going back to the island and leaves him a guitar case (side note: we still haven't seen what's inside that case). He says very little to the rest of them and almost nothing to Jack and Locke. Jacob maybe saved Sayid's life from the hit and run van that killed Nadia (if Jacob haden't stopped Sayid to ask for directions, Sayid would have been in the road with Nadia and maybe run over as well. OR maybe Jacob got Nadia killed. If he hadn't distracted Sayid, maybe Sayid would have been able to get himself and Nadia out of the way of the car and both would have lived (and Sayid would never have worked for Ben and never gone back to the island... So maybe Jacob got Nadia killed on purpose?)

I also noticed that Jacob physically touched (they make a point of showing it) all the people he visited except for Sayid and Hurley. So does that mean something?

Anyone have any thoughts or ideas about this?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm not sure why the timeline is so spread out or why Sayid and Hurley were visited after being rescued (or why weren't touched, but I'm betting there's a connection there), but I've assumed from the beginning that Jacob indirectly caused Nadia's death and not directly saved Sayid's.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think Jacob comes when he's needed. For some, he was needed when they were young, for others, much later. To me, Jacob almost seems to exist out of time, so he can visit people when he needs to visit them.

 

[McCoy]

It seems that the need is his, though. Not theirs.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

I think Jacob comes when he's needed. For some, he was needed when they were young, for others, much later. To me, Jacob almost seems to exist out of time, so he can visit people when he needs to visit them.

I agree that Jacob visits characters at key pivotal moments, but perhaps it is to ensure they all remain connected to the Island for some grand purpose - either directly, or in the case of Locke, in order to allow certain later events to happen properly, which we will see in season 6 (referred to when he said "They're Coming™.") Here's how I interpret them.

When he visited James, it was at a key moment, i.e. the writing of his "Dear Mr. Sawyer" letter, giving him the pen he needs to finish that letter.

I'm guessing that his visit of young Kate occurred at a pivotal moment where if she had continued with the lunchbox, she might have been caught by the authorities then undergone a wholly different life altogether (one where the young Kate would have been raised more strictly perhaps?) to the one we end up seeing over these years.

His visits of Locke after his fall and Sayid in order to let Nadia die are also pivotal moments, leading to major changes in their characterisations - Locke alive and using his status as an embittered invalid to strengthen his character towards his destiny; Sayid becoming an embittered (and more badass) killing machine for the purpose of presumably mortally wounding young Ben in the past and leading to strengthen the boy's connection to the Others.

Before he visited Jack, Jack was annoyed at his father's comments during that first solo procedure which might have discouraged him, but Jacob's comment (the vending machine metaphor) seemed to galvanise Jack into becoming the super surgeon he would later become (thus leading to the events regarding Sarah and, indirectly, Shannon and Boone's presence on Oceanic 815).

Regarding Sun and Jin, he seems to support their union, I think hoping that the two remain together for some grand purpose despite the painful years of marriage they must endure. That Jin commented that, for a Caucasian man, Jacob's conversational Korean was excellent suggests that there was something very special about his blessing.

As for Hurley, I guess we've still to see the significance of that. Ditto Ilana.

 

[Mallet]

I agree that Jacob visits characters at key pivotal moments, but perhaps it is to ensure they all remain connected to the Island for some grand purpose - either directly, or in the case of Locke, in order to allow certain later events to happen properly, which we will see in season 6 (referred to when he said "They're Coming™.") Here's how I interpret them.

When he visited James, it was at a key moment, i.e. the writing of his "Dear Mr. Sawyer" letter, giving him the pen he needs to finish that letter.

I'm guessing that his visit of young Kate occurred at a pivotal moment where if she had continued with the lunchbox, she might have been caught by the authorities then undergone a wholly different life altogether (one where the young Kate would have been raised more strictly perhaps?) to the one we end up seeing over these years.

His visits of Locke after his fall and Sayid in order to let Nadia die are also pivotal moments, leading to major changes in their characterisations - Locke alive and using his status as an embittered invalid to strengthen his character towards his destiny; Sayid becoming an embittered (and more badass) killing machine for the purpose of presumably mortally wounding young Ben in the past and leading to strengthen the boy's connection to the Others.

Before he visited Jack, Jack was annoyed at his father's comments during that first solo procedure which might have discouraged him, but Jacob's comment (the vending machine metaphor) seemed to galvanise Jack into becoming the super surgeon he would later become (thus leading to the events regarding Sarah and, indirectly, Shannon and Boone's presence on Oceanic 815).

Regarding Sun and Jin, he seems to support their union, I think hoping that the two remain together for some grand purpose despite the painful years of marriage they must endure. That Jin commented that, for a Caucasian man, Jacob's conversational Korean was excellent suggests that there was something very special about his blessing.

As for Hurley, I guess we've still to see the significance of that. Ditto Ilana.

What this would mean then is that Jacob can fully see the future and also see or understand alternate futures and how his actions would change them, not just having "hints" or "feelings" about people or events, but actual knowledge of what will happen.

For example, the Sayid situation. Jacob would have to know ahead of time that by distracting Sayid at that exact moment would lead to Nadia's death, and then that Ben would take advantage of that to use Sayid as an assassin, then Sayid and Ben would have a falling out, then that Jacob would have to use Ilana to bring Sayid back to the island, then that Sayid would end up going back in time to the 1970's and would have the opertuinty and motivation to shoot Ben(but not kill him) and then that Jack would not save Ben so Sawyer and Kate would bring Ben to the Others to be saved and that the Other's wouldn't just kill them, but take Ben and heal him.

That's some pretty detailed knowledge about the future and past and peoples interactions and motivations and time travel and all sorts of stuff.

So is Jacob a god? an Angel? A super powerful time traveler? or a mystic that can see the future (and alternate futures) in such detail that he knows where and when to be, down to the exact second?

I'm not saying this isn't the case, but if it is, then some other things don't make sense.

For example, when Jacob and the other guy are talking at the beginning of the episode (at the beach when the Black Rock is near the island), neither seem to know the future then. They talk about how the same stuff always happens when outsiders come to the island and how Jacob say it only needs to happen once for things to change, etc... Well the way they talk does not make it seem that they know exactly what will happen down to the exact second, like Jacob would have to know when he visited Sayid. It's implied that Jacob arranged for the ship to find the island, but not that he knew everything that would eventually happen with them.

Also, unless his plan was to get killed, he didn't did know/see the future/etc... that his enemy had found a loophole to kill him.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

What this would mean then is that Jacob can fully see the future and also see or understand alternate futures and how his actions would change them, not just having "hints" or "feelings" about people or events, but actual knowledge of what will happen.

For example, the Sayid situation. Jacob would have to know ahead of time that by distracting Sayid at that exact moment would lead to Nadia's death, and then that Ben would take advantage of that to use Sayid as an assassin, then Sayid and Ben would have a falling out, then that Jacob would have to use Ilana to bring Sayid back to the island, then that Sayid would end up going back in time to the 1970's and would have the opertuinty and motivation to shoot Ben(but not kill him) and then that Jack would not save Ben so Sawyer and Kate would bring Ben to the Others to be saved and that the Other's wouldn't just kill them, but take Ben and heal him.

That's some pretty detailed knowledge about the future and past and peoples interactions and motivations and time travel and all sorts of stuff.

So is Jacob a god? an Angel? A super powerful time traveler? or a mystic that can see the future (and alternate futures) in such detail that he knows where and when to be, down to the exact second?

I'm not saying this isn't the case, but if it is, then some other things don't make sense.

For example, when Jacob and the other guy are talking at the beginning of the episode (at the beach when the Black Rock is near the island), neither seem to know the future then. They talk about how the same stuff always happens when outsiders come to the island and how Jacob say it only needs to happen once for things to change, etc... Well the way they talk does not make it seem that they know exactly what will happen down to the exact second, like Jacob would have to know when he visited Sayid. It's implied that Jacob arranged for the ship to find the island, but not that he knew everything that would eventually happen with them.

That's exactly my understand of how Jacob works - his tapestry seems to be a metaphor for the interwoven lives he influences, and his ability to see the bigger picture. I'm also wondering if his arch-enemy also works in the same way. As to how neither seems to predict the future in that beach scene, I think they're just trying to out-bluff each other and they know it.

I think they see time and timelines the same way we see an ocean from the top of a mountain - precise details of everything under their nose, knowledge of everything they have seen behind them, and seeing the big events in the distance but not necessarily the routes that take us there which includes various twists and turns as the timeline moves in all directions by our actions. I think both can see what MUST happen (and it must happen in Jacob's favour), and because Jacob's enemy knows that despite all he does, the Universe course-corrects things so that it happens as it should, then he must then find a way out to change things against Jacob by using his powers to get things done his way - in other words, find a loophole.

Of course, perhaps Jacob's death at the end of season 5 is part of what must happen, and, it must happen for a reason. What that reason is, we don't know. But, thanks to his hard work with the other people mentioned above, "they're coming."

 

[Ben Sisko3]

Jacob visited Sayid three months after Sayid got off the island, so in late 2004.

That's actually roughly March, 2005, as the Oceanic Six were rescued and returned to civilization during late December of 2004. Miles was locked up in the shed by Locke about a day or two before Christmas.

I also noticed that Jacob physically touched (they make a point of showing it) all the people he visited except for Sayid and Hurley. So does that mean something?

I recall him touching both of them; didn't he at the very least grab Sayid's arm when Nadia rushed into oncoming traffic?

Also, I'm pretty sure it was left vague if Ilana had physical contact with Jacob. It may have been contingent, at the time, on Zuleikha Robinson signing on for the final season.

 

[Mallet]

I recall him touching both of them; didn't he at the very least grab Sayid's arm when Nadia rushed into oncoming traffic?

I don't think he does. I'd have to watch it again to triple check, but when I watched it a couple of days ago I was keeping my out and didn't see it happen.

When he talks to Sayid Jacob is holding an unfolded map in both of his hands and doesn't touch him, but then a camera moves away to show Nadia being hit, so I guess it is possible Jacob touch Sayid off-screen at that time.

As for Hurley, Jacob and him sit at opposite sides of the taxicab with the guitar case in between them. They never touch or shake hands or anything for the whole trip/conversation.

 

[Hunter X]

Actually, Jacob does touch Hurley, right after he tells him about Ajira 316, then says "it's your choice, Hugo. You don't have to do anything you don't want to."

 

[Alidar Jarok]

It seems that the need is his, though. Not theirs.

Well, that assumes they're mutually exclusive. He showed up at a time of trouble for each of the characters and helped motivate them to move forward. He clearly had his own motivation as well, but that doesn't mean they didn't need him too.

 

[McCoy]

True. But I suspect if their needs were not aligned, Jacob would ignore them. I don't think he's a benevolent god-like figure at all.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

We'll have to wait and see, I would think.

 

[MikeS]

But it is interesting to speculate, no? It is what keeps internet forums interesting. It also keeps us all hungry for season 6.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Oh yeah, it's definitely fun. But I've gotten into fairly indepth conversations. At that point, I have to cut back, though, because I don't want anyone emotionally invested in their answer. Then they might be pissed off if we get a different one.

 

[Python Trek]

Oh yeah, it's definitely fun. But I've gotten into fairly indepth conversations. At that point, I have to cut back, though, because I don't want anyone emotionally invested in their answer. Then they might be pissed off if we get a different one.

I said that same thing the other day to a friend of mine! He and I just agreed that we better not get Kate waking up in a Kansas farmhouse, telling Auntie Em, "I just had the strangest dream!".

 

[RobertScorpio]

Oh yeah, it's definitely fun. But I've gotten into fairly indepth conversations. At that point, I have to cut back, though, because I don't want anyone emotionally invested in their answer. Then they might be pissed off if we get a different one.

I said that same thing the other day to a friend of mine! He and I just agreed that we better not get Kate waking up in a Kansas farmhouse, telling Auntie Em, "I just had the strangest dream!".

I have been watching LOST from the start. It will be sad when this show ends. I have enjoyed the highs (seasons 1-4-5) and the lows (seasons 2-3)..and I have survived to the end. I just hope, unlike nuBSG (IMO) that it all makes sense and ends with a great finale....because that is what all of us have been watching this show for...WILL IT ADD UP...

I loved season Five. We are nearing the end of that season again (GOD bless NETFLIX Streaming) and we will be at the finale of Season 5 this week...Season 5 was a very strong season, great writing and acting. Ben, Locke, Jack... they are my favorites and I cant wait to see how this all ends..wow..what a ride...

Rob